next step GOAL: 320-375whp

[jonezj]

I need some experienced advice on FMIC's and where i need to go from here:
92 Talon AWD 6bolt, 16g, 2g ported ExMani/O2, 3" DSS turbo back, 255hp walbro, 560cc evo injs, SAFC2, k&n, manual boostcon @18(+/-)lbs.
I should be around 300 hp at this point, ran a 13.7 on my dying stock clutch with 109 oct@20lbs. I am in the Army and my dsm sits in my garage at home till i get home. I am getting a clutch installed immediate future ###### spec 2+ because of my goals of 350ish. I want to retain A/C and streetability but would really like to have to gains of a FMIC. I fear knock on my 110k mile engine.. What is the best way to push that last 50 hp out of my car without internal engine mods/cams etc? Is an FMIC the answer or can i get by with replacing the restrictive stock ic piping and outlet elbow. I dont really want to replace my 16g, i got it for dirt cheap and its new so... what would you do with my car and my goals? i am very open to suggestion and this semi-tunernewbie has a little money to play with but wants to keep it cheap as possible. Thanks for your time and thoughts!
Julian Jones
US Army, Korea

 

[bkruahnndon]

FMIC from ebay will do the trick for your cooling needs, cams will make a huge difference. go with 264/272 for a bit more streetability, otherwise just go 272/272 and it will still be very streetable. i didnt see an AFPR with that 255 pump, that is an absolute must if you dont have it already.

lookin good so far otherwise

 

[Ginglingston11]

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

 

[saiyansniper]

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

you're an idiot.

true story.

 

[weith1111]

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

wtf are you talking about? Facts please...

edit: sorry that was capital wtf so I could get a WTF

 

[1SloColt]

i didnt see an AFPR with that 255 pump, that is an absolute must if you dont have it already.

I know plenty of people running 255s with the stock FPR and making great power, myself included. Its not a must to have it, but it does help with low rpm tuning and at idle.

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

Gauranteed to be the stupidest fockin post I've ever read.

 

[dsm-onster]

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

Higher compressing speeds up the burning of the charge gasses. Igniting the mixture earlier (advancing the timing) gets the process going earlier, so speeds up burning of the charge gasses, in effect. Running leaner lends to a higher rate of tempurate increas as the gasses are exploding which speeds up burning of the charge gasses.

If he runs 109 octane, he will run marginally slower at the track if he does not add compression, does not advance the timing, or does not run any leaner han he would on pump gas. If any of these variable are modified positively significant horsepower increases are noted. The dsm ecu naturally advances timing to just before the knock threshold using the knock sensor, and his ecu probably saw little to no knock even w/ the stock sidemount so the timing was advanced as far as most of us would ever want to run (because of the SAFC, his ecu probably is running on a more aggressive timing map [compensating for the 550s]). He ran as much boost as he can (added compression as much as he could w/out knock, and BTW also adds alot more airflow which = work). And, with the SAFC, he has the ability to lean out where and he wants to the rev limit.

So, no he will not run faster at the track. He wil blow his engine to he!! however. So if you want ot spot him the costs of a new engine, have him prove your statement. Or just do it yourself and save him his engine.

To the original poster. . .

in the winter a fmic is not an issue w/ respect to the taking away the flow neccesary cool the coolant in the radiator. This issue usually only crops up in the dead middle of summer where you can run straight water in your coolant mix. Straight water is a MUCH better heat extractor than ethenol (antifreeze). Guys who have switched to straight h2o in the summer months have for the most part solved any overheating issues.

Cams are your only other mod you can do, other than raising the boost. So if you don't want to go into the head, turn the boost up and get a good fmic and/or water injection and you will reach your goal...

P.S. I ran 4 more psi of boost on a stock sidemount and stock injectors and stock fuel pump with water injection. 1 psi = aprox. 8-10 horsepower. I know you can get up to 40 more horsepower with just adding water injection and retuning with higher boost.

 

[weith1111]

I think we were all assuming he didn't just drop in the fuel without making changes to the AFC. That would be like putting in a MBC and expecting more power. Um, did you turn up the boost? Duh. That understood, he isn't going to "blow his engine." There are plenty of folks running racing fuel on just AFC's, on non-built motors.

Please explain, how exactly you run higher octane without blowing your engine to h-e-double hockey sticks since you say you cannot with an AFC.

He wil blow his engine to he!! however.

 

[DSMxTSi]

So, no he will not run faster at the track. He wil blow his engine to he!! however. So if you want ot spot him the costs of a new engine, have him prove your statement. Or just do it yourself and save him his engine.

I am marginally interested in this as well. I can see valid points in either direction, however, every car reacts differently and atmospheric conditions also play a huge roll.
I ran C16 in a fairly stock 1g GSX (ported 6cm turbine housing, turbo-back exhaust, MBC, K/N, and plug wires) with the boost set at 19 psi and had great results with consistant 14.2 ets in the quarter mile. Had the stock clutch held up on the hole shots it could have been even lower. I also did not let the engine cool between runs, it was lovin' the C16.
I would not recommend running 19 psi on the stock fuel system, intercooler, etc. I was curious to see how well the car would react to C16 being close to stock, and was very impressed. To say the least, I only use C16 now at the track, nothing esle.

Jonezj: I highly recommend the Buschur street fmic for your car. I prefer those with the short route piping the best. The Ebay ones are ok if you don't mind some custom fabricating. Water injection will also be a major factor in eliminating knock and getting you closer to your goal. You should also get an adjustable fpr. Cams will help you but aren't necessary with your current set-up, you can achieve your goal with a fmic and water injection.

 

[Gleason]

you are already at 110k miles. mine as well change your timingbelt now.......while doing/getting that done, you mine as well install cams, it should be straight forward with the Timing belt off.

 

[dsm-onster]

That understood, he isn't going to "blow his engine." There are plenty of folks running racing fuel on just AFC's, on non-built motors.

Please explain, how exactly you run higher octane without blowing your engine to h-e-double hockey sticks since you say you cannot with an AFC.

Where did i say that you can not blow you engine with an SAFC?

Where did I say that you cannot blow you engine with race gas?

I said that if he maintains his race gas, track tune and uses pump gas he will blow his engine with his stock sidemount. As it was mentioned (and I quoted) that if he uses a lower octane that he will be able to reach his goal.

You cannot run 550s with the stock ecu with out adding an SAFC to correct the base flow settings. I was referring to tuning throughout the rpm range as I said:

And, with the SAFC, he has the ability to lean out where he wants to the rev limit

So since you may not understand: tweeking the fuel mixture throughout the rpm range for openloop operation yields more horsepower. I said, since he has been running 109 at the track, he can use the SAFC and extract more power by leaning out this points as his setup dictates.

To the original poster...

That understood, he isn't going to "blow his engine." There are plenty of folks running racing fuel on just AFC's, on non-built motors.

Don't assume that weith1111 means that, in fact, you cannot blow you engine running race fuel and an SAFC.

 

[dsm-onster]

I am marginally interested in this as well. I can see valid points in either direction, however, every car reacts differently and atmospheric conditions also play a huge roll.
I ran C16 in a fairly stock 1g GSX (ported 6cm turbine housing, turbo-back exhaust, MBC, K/N, and plug wires) with the boost set at 19 psi and had great results with consistant 14.2 ets in the quarter mile. Had the stock clutch held up on the hole shots it could have been even lower. I also did not let the engine cool between runs, it was lovin' the C16.
I would not recommend running 19 psi on the stock fuel system, intercooler, etc. I was curious to see how well the car would react to C16 being close to stock, and was very impressed. To say the least, I only use C16 now at the track, nothing esle.

Jonezj: I highly recommend the Buschur street fmic for your car. I prefer those with the short route piping the best. The Ebay ones are ok if you don't mind some custom fabricating. Water injection will also be a major factor in eliminating knock and getting you closer to your goal. You should also get an adjustable fpr. Cams will help you but aren't necessary with your current set-up, you can achieve your goal with a fmic and water injection.

Thank you for proving me correct.

To the original poster... I know you're intelligent. So don't digress and run pump gas at 20 psi on a 16g and stock sidemount(w/out WI) and expect not to blow you motor to "h-e-double hockey sticks". Or atleast pop a head gasket.

 

[DSMxTSi]

Thank you for proving me correct.

Ah yes, you are welcome. I re-read your first post as well as your subsequent posts and was more clear with what you were saying. Your first post wasn't too clear and I breezed through it as well. Oh well, all's well that ends well, eh?

 

[dsm-onster]

Ah yes, you are welcome. I re-read your first post as well as your subsequent posts and was more clear with what you were saying. Your first post wasn't too clear and I breezed through it as well. Oh well, all's well that ends well, eh?

Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[1SloColt]

Higher compressing speeds up the burning of the charge gasses. Igniting the mixture earlier (advancing the timing) gets the process going earlier, so speeds up burning of the charge gasses, in effect. Running leaner lends to a higher rate of tempurate increas as the gasses are exploding which speeds up burning of the charge gasses.

Just wanted to clear all this up for the people who don't know. Higher compression does not increase the speed at which the air/fuel mixture burns, that stays constant, if anything it might go down considering the brake specific fuel consumption lowers. Ignition timing does not change the rate at which the fuel/air burns assuming you keep the A/F ratio constant. Also, the air/fuel mixture does not explode, it burns very rapidly. The only time it explodes is preigniton(which is different than knock or detonation), or antilag situations, backfiring would also go in that category.

I'm not trying to pick on you, just clearing things up.

 

[weith1111]

Where did i say that you can not blow you engine with an SAFC?

Where did I say that you cannot blow you engine with race gas?

I said that if he maintains his race gas, track tune and uses pump gas he will blow his engine with his stock sidemount.


To the original poster...
Don't assume that weith1111 means that, in fact, you cannot blow you engine running race fuel and an SAFC.

I don't see where you said if he uses his race gas tune on the street he will blow his motor. Ah, now I do. You are responding to quoted text in the middle of your reply. If he goes to the track again and runs 93, with the same tune he used on the race gas he will blow his motor. This is obviously correct, and I'm sorry you thought I was a moron. I was just very confused by the ramblings of posts and quotes.

I'm very guilty as well. My sentence about the AFC was poorly worded. I wasn't trying to say you can't blow your motor with an AFC. Haha. I was still lost by your "he won't run faster but he'll blow up his motor" that came right after you explained how he would run faster.

Ignore me. I'm apparently the only one that didn't understand your post.

 

[dsm-onster]

Just wanted to clear all this up for the people who don't know. Higher compression does not increase the speed at which the air/fuel mixture burns, that stays constant, if anything it might go down considering the brake specific fuel consumption lowers. Ignition timing does not change the rate at which the fuel/air burns assuming you keep the A/F ratio constant. Also, the air/fuel mixture does not explode, it burns very rapidly. The only time it explodes is preigniton(which is different than knock or detonation), or antilag situations, backfiring would also go in that category.

I'm not trying to pick on you, just clearing things up.

That's ok. Do you or anyone know why higher compression yields knock when all other factors are kept the same? Does it detonate or does it pre-ignite? I assumed that it causes the mixture to become more volitile earlier thus causing it to release more energy in the fuel. I assumed that advancing the timing does the same thing: gets the burn going earlier so that, as the piston is compressing the mixture, it is getting even more volitile than with stock timing.

Does more energy being released raise the flame front speed? I have been told that lower octane fuel actually has more energy in it and thus has a more rapid flame front speed. This is why it creates a more volitile mixture at, say, TDC, just after the spark plug has fired. And similarly a leaner mixture lends to a more volitile mixture by having a higher oxygen content (like injecting nitrous). Does more oxygen mean faster burn?

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't see where you said if he uses his race gas tune on the street he will blow his motor. Ah, now I do. You are responding to quoted text in the middle of your reply. If he goes to the track again and runs 93, with the same tune he used on the race gas he will blow his motor. This is obviously correct, and I'm sorry you thought I was a moron. I was just very confused by the ramblings of posts and quotes.

I'm very guilty as well. My sentence about the AFC was poorly worded. I wasn't trying to say you can't blow your motor with an AFC. Haha. I was still lost by your "he won't run faster but he'll blow up his motor" that came right after you explained how he would run faster.

Ignore me. I'm apparently the only one that didn't understand your post.

HAHAHA ! this must be the moron thread... I'm an idiot too becasue now that I read your thread, you are still correct that I seamed to imply that no one is running racing fuel on just an SAFC, on non-built motors. Heck, I ran MAFt with just water injection (like race fuel) for a loooooong time

No beef here! We're all one big, happy, moron tuner bunch here . You got me to clerify and that's all that's important as we're trying (and I stress trying) to guide this guy in his upcoming decisions about his ride. To the original poster... I hope you can sift through this BS to get what you need!

 

[1SloColt]

That's ok. Do you or anyone know why higher compression yields knock when all other factors are kept the same? Does it detonate or does it pre-ignite? I assumed that it causes the mixture to become more volitile earlier thus causing it to release more energy in the fuel. I assumed that advancing the timing does the same thing: gets the burn going earlier so that, as the piston is compressing the mixture, it is getting even more volitile than with stock timing.

Does more energy being released raise the flame front speed? I have been told that lower octane fuel actually has more energy in it and thus has a more rapid flame front speed. This is why it creates a more volitile mixture at, say, TDC, just after the spark plug has fired. And similarly a leaner mixture lends to a more volitile mixture by having a higher oxygen content (like injecting nitrous). Does more oxygen mean faster burn?

Higher compression yields knock because the mixture is under greater pressure from the higher compression. This higher pressure causes higher temperatures of course and can allow the mixture to reach past its autoignition point. Preignition is basically a backfire through your intake system. Imagine what that can cause. I've seen JM fabrication manifolds balloon because of this and shit starts to fly, bad news. What happens when knock occurs after the spark plug fires is that the mixture that has not finished burning will instantaneously ignite on its own into an extremely rapid burn.

The highest cylinder pressures occur at some point directly after the spark happens. If you induce the spark earlier in the compression stroke then the piston will compress that highest cylinder pressure more than what is ideal, this can also lead to knock, so yes you are right on about the advanced timing. Yes more oxygen means faster burn. Like I said in my earlier post, running rich with pump is similar to running race gas, you are trying to slow down the burn rate, which will help reduce knock.

I would assume that the potential energy of a fuel has to do with its oxygenation level. 93 octane may have plenty of potential energy but you gotta run it retarded rich to overcome the knock, so you won't be able to take fuel advantage of its properties.

 

[weith1111]

HAHAHA ! this must be the moron thread... I'm an idiot too becasue now that I read your thread, you are still correct that I seamed to imply that no one is running racing fuel on just an SAFC, on non-built motors. Heck, I ran MAFt with just water injection (like race fuel) for a loooooong time

No beef here! We're all one big, happy, moron tuner bunch here . You got me to clerify and that's all that's important as we're trying (and I stress trying) to guide this guy in his upcoming decisions about his ride. To the original poster... I hope you can sift through this BS to get what you need!

Seriously I don't do well unless things are numbered or bulleted. I'm infected by cubicle-itis.

On a more serious note when looking back through threads for info, it is a lot easier to sift through everything if answers are NOT in paragraph form.

 

[dsm-onster]

Higher compression yields knock because the mixture is under greater pressure from the higher compression. This higher pressure causes higher temperatures of course and can allow the mixture to reach past its autoignition point. Preignition is basically a backfire through your intake system. Imagine what that can cause. I've seen JM fabrication manifolds balloon because of this and shit starts to fly, bad news. What happens when knock occurs after the spark plug fires is that the mixture that has not finished burning will instantaneously ignite on its own into an extremely rapid burn.

The highest cylinder pressures occur at some point directly after the spark happens. If you induce the spark earlier in the compression stroke then the piston will compress that highest cylinder pressure more than what is ideal, this can also lead to knock, so yes you are right on about the advanced timing. Yes more oxygen means faster burn. Like I said in my earlier post, running rich with pump is similar to running race gas, you are trying to slow down the burn rate, which will help reduce knock.

I would assume that the potential energy of a fuel has to do with its oxygenation level. 93 octane may have plenty of potential energy but you gotta run it retarded rich to overcome the knock, so you won't be able to take fuel advantage of its properties.

Awesome, awesome, awesome! Thanx for the quick rundown of knock control, flame front, and basic fuel properties .

 

[kgtalon95]

i noticed when you ran your car at the track you used 109 octane. why? you do know that the higher the octane the longer it takes to burn and it slows you down, the only reason people use race gas is if they have a fully built motor and to prevent pinging. if you go to the tracks again with 91 or 93 octane i gaurentee you will shave off atleast 2 tenths.

Will someone PLEASE put this quote somewhere in the noob section...............and for crying out loud boot this guyWTF

You need to sell your dsm................

 

[alex]

HKS 264/272 cams will add a nice 30 HP. Only issue with that is you want to get stronger springs. With stronger springs, its going to be more of a firm up and down with the valves.

DSM-onster, great posts.

 

[1SloColt]

HKS 264/272 cams will add a nice 30 HP. Only issue with that is you want to get stronger springs. With stronger springs, its going to be more of a firm up and down with the valves.

Where have you obtained this information? HKS 272s and 264s are direct drop-ins that require nothing more than stock valve springs. Cars can rev out to 8000 with the stock springs with a 264/272 combo without problems.

 

[weith1111]

Where have you obtained this information? HKS 272s and 264s are direct drop-ins that require nothing more than stock valve springs. Cars can rev out to 8000 with the stock springs with a 264/272 combo without problems.

Agree, especially since I have this setup...