New turbo from bullseye?

[GVR4592]

How are the results not typical? You could put the same setup together and run the same times - if you know how to tune and drive well. Others have trapped higher on a 20g, but I was speaking from a personal point of reference. As for running fast on the Holsets, a friend has gone 127 mph with a clutch engagement problem and an engine with 110-110-90-90 compression. That doesn't even scratch the surface of what this turbo can do - in a hybrid housing. People have gone 9s on FP Reds, which are measly 61lb/min turbos in pathetically tiny 7 or 8cm turbine housings. The point I'm making is that if he's only trapping 120mph on a 70+ lb/min turbo, the LAST thing he needs to worry about is stepping up even bigger. He needs to learn to tune so he can maximize what he's got. He's far from the only one. DSMs used to be about bang for the buck, now it seems like it's just another car that people piss money into on bigger turbos and crap to solve their problems.

If you want to start a new thread feel free.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

How are the results not typical? You could put the same setup together and run the same times - if you know how to tune and drive well. Others have trapped higher on a 20g, but I was speaking from a personal point of reference. As for running fast on the Holsets, a friend has gone 127 mph with a clutch engagement problem and an engine with 110-110-90-90 compression. That doesn't even scratch the surface of what this turbo can do - in a hybrid housing. People have gone 9s on FP Reds, which are measly 61lb/min turbos in pathetically tiny 7 or 8cm turbine housings. The point I'm making is that if he's only trapping 120mph on a 70+ lb/min turbo, the LAST thing he needs to worry about is stepping up even bigger. He needs to learn to tune so he can maximize what he's got. He's far from the only one. DSMs used to be about bang for the buck, now it seems like it's just another car that people piss money into on bigger turbos and crap to solve their problems.

You didn't answer my question. Not who, but how many. It isn't typical to achieve those results from an everyday guy.

Also, 70lbs/min means jack if the exhaust housing chokes all the power out of it (as far as any turbo is concerned.)

 

[sweet97]

Steve is right about the tuning aspect. I read about it all the time but no one could say how to tune. I asked the question once as to what was more important, boost, timing or AFGR's and I got all different of responses. These hybrids are going to be compromises. I just became frustrated when I could not get info from the supplier who said my turbine wheel with the HX-35/40 was too small and I wandered why it was sold if it was not a good design, therefore my offer to trade it in and allow the Vendor or Bullseye to make ammends of sorts for what sounded like a faulty design. I will make the best of it. However using a bullseye turbine on these 100lb./min. giant Borg Warners is stretching it a bit:>)
Let's just let this thread go as it will end up like the Holset threads, 100's of posts that have very little info. If Bullseye does not sell many of these it is their fault, their loss. Mark

 

[gSx_r1der]

They dont sell many of of their turbos mark. Why would anyone buy a turbo that is not proven on OUR cars?? Why buy a hx35 when you can have a much more efficient 50trim, why get an hx40 when you get an sc61, which both have def been proven to put down the numbers they are said to when matched with the proper housings. Why even mess with a holset when they cost a 1k. Back in the day when you could pick it up on ebay for like $200 and the bullseye turbine for $150 it was a good deal. But someone found out about this and decided to make a buck off it and now they charge $1k for something you could pick up for less than $400 a few years ago. Get some tunning and call it a day mark.

 

[steel_3d]

Is the hx35 really the same as a 50 trim?? I was under the impression that it flowed more (60lbs according to Holset), had a fatter compressor map, and spooled faster.

I'm also interested in the s200, in terms of how it behaves and spools on our cars. The dyno graph from that Integra is nothing encouraging in that regard.

 

[DSM90AWD]

*BUMP*

It's been over a year since these new Borg-Warner turbos have been actively marketed and I know that at least one vendor (Martin) has had a S256 on his DSM, yet not a single review of one on a DSM

I've saw over on EVO-M that Dave Bushur had real issues with the internally gated Mitsu version of the S256while testing on his EVO and his findings were supported by Nick at SLS. So I guess without any evidence to the contrary, an $1300-$1500 internally gated Mitsu bolt-on S200/256 is not a good setup.

Seems the only proven combination (again not on a DSM) was the .76 A/R divided T3 housing that would require a like custom divided turbo manifold/external WG ($900 from SLS + $400 for (2) Tial38s). So $2500 + a custom O2 housing (~$200) = $2700 = the entry price to test same out on a DSM.

hrrmmmm.. guess I'm now not suprised as to why the year of silence

 

[flinguist]

*BUMP*

It's been over a year since these new Borg-Warner turbos have been actively marketed and I know that at least one vendor (Martin) has had a S256 on his DSM, yet not a single review of one on a DSM

I've saw over on EVO-M that Dave Bushur had real issues with the internally gated Mitsu version of the S256while testing on his EVO and his findings were supported by Nick at SLS. So I guess without any evidence to the contrary, an $1300-$1500 internally gated Mitsu bolt-on S200/256 is not a good setup.

Seems the only proven combination (again not on a DSM) was the .76 A/R divided T3 housing that would require a like custom divided turbo manifold/external WG ($900 from SLS + $400 for (2) Tial38s). So $2500 + a custom O2 housing (~$200) = $2700 = the entry price to test same out on a DSM.

hrrmmmm.. guess I'm now not suprised as to why the year of silence

Thanks for that update. It seems like the vendors spin these threads to drum up business, without pointing out any of the negative aspects of their products. I appreciate that they are business men, but I would also appreciate some more honesty.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Seems the only proven combination (again not on a DSM) was the .76 A/R divided T3 housing that would require a like custom divided turbo manifold/external WG ($900 from SLS + $400 for (2) Tial38s). So $2500 + a custom O2 housing (~$200) = $2700 = the entry price to test same out on a DSM.

Incidentally, that dyno test you're referring to was on a 1.8 Integra with an UNDIVIDED manifold. I'd sure as hell hope that a similar setup on a DSM would net more power. So you can knock about $400+ off for the 2nd gate and divided manifold. So roughly $2200 for a complete setup that'll support well over 500whp and spool under 4k. Not too bad to me. Plenty of Garrett owners have spent at least as much on similar setups. The only difference is that it's "proven". Maybe more people should stop to consider that the only reason things are unproven is that everyone tends to follow the herd instead of taking a shot on something different.


The shop car from Appalachian Restorations is running an S258 and went 11.89 at 21psi on the old tune from their previous turbo, also dynoed 445whp - on the mitsu bolt-on housing. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the internal gate option, as I dont know of anyone running a BW with it.

http://www.ar4speed.com/

http://www.bullseyepower.com/ (scroll 3/4 down on the left)

I just got an S256 and will have it finished up within the next few weeks. I'll be sure to update this thread with results.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Interesing factoid (not that it is meaningful to this discussion) is that the S200/256 was designed for use for Volvo's TWD740GE diesel engine that's used in generators.

At least the turbo (like the Holset) should be durable as industrial engines are generally built like the proverbial brick poopoo house

 

[Steve93Talon]

At least the turbo (like the Holset) should be durable as industrial engines are generally built like the proverbial brick poopoo house

I can attest to that. On Carl's HX40, his oil filter backed off and he ran the car out of oil. The car wouldnt spool because obviously with no oil pressure the shaft had enough play for the wheel to touch the housing and hang up. Well once he put oil back in the car, the turbo fully recovered, shaft felt tight again, and spooled fine. (of course the engine died a couple months later and upon disassembly the oil pump shaft was all chewed up )

 

[DSM90AWD]

Incidentally, that dyno test you're referring to was on a 1.8 Integra with an UNDIVIDED manifold.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. The only .78 A/R housing that fits the S200 series (which SLS stated was used in the testing) is the B-W divided T3 (I personally confirmed this point with Nick at SLS whom performed that test).

The only difference is that it's "proven". Maybe more people should stop to consider that the only reason things are unproven is that everyone tends to follow the herd instead of taking a shot on something different

I think more along the lines that this is an expensive and virtually unproven (except for shop cars) setup that come with a bolt-on housing proven to be not up to snuff on larger turbos. Now if vendors came out from the git-go and TESTED these turbos before hyping the heck outta them to move them out the door, I think either they'd be all over the place or in a landfill.

The shop car from Appalachian Restorations is running an S258 and went 11.89 at 21psi on the old tune from their previous turbo, also dynoed 445whp - on the mitsu bolt-on housing

Not that it matters, but I was speaking of the S200/256 a/k/a the "50-trim" Borg Warner. The S258 has a larger wheel that is rated to > 60lb-min, so would it expect to make even more than the 550WHP the "56mm" S256 made. 445whp is a decent number, but in this age, I'd hope for more performance for the $-spent. Maybe you'll do better

BTW.. I looked at both sites you listed but saw no mention as to the rest of this A-R guys setup or if he's used a Mitsu housing or not

I just got an S256 and will have it finished up within the next few weeks. I'll be sure to update this thread with results.

Love to see it

 

[Steve93Talon]

Sorry, but that is incorrect. The only .78 A/R housing that fits the S200 series (which SLS stated was used in the testing) is the B-W divided T3 (I personally confirmed this point with Nick at SLS whom performed that test).

You're talking about the housing. I'm talking about the manifold. I.E. you don't necessarily need a divided manifold with a divided housing, and vice versa. I've got e-mail from SLS confirming this, here's a quote from it:

"It was an undivided manifold we were
using. We simply unbolted the T3/T67 that was on it and bolted the S256
on it and ran it.

Nick
SLS"

Not that it matters, but I was speaking of the S200/256 a/k/a the "50-trim" Borg Warner. The S258 has a larger wheel that is rated to > 60lb-min, so would it expect to make even more than the 550WHP the "56mm" S256 made. 445whp is a decent number, but in this age, I'd hope for more performance for the $-spent. Maybe you'll do better

I know, just making a reference to the fact that they're making good power at relatively low boost with the bolt-on housing.

BTW.. I looked at both sites you listed but saw no mention as to the rest of this A-R guys setup or if he's used a Mitsu housing or not

Again, I have an e-mail from them confirming this:

"We are running the mitsu housing. The car is heavily modded with a built motor, 272 cams, dsmlink, 1000cc injectors, etc. It produced mid 400's awhp with a tune from another setup. I personally was impressed with the fast spool of the turbo considering its size.

Seth"

 

[flinguist]

I've got a great deal lined up on an S200. Whaddya think, should I bite the bullet?

 

[PSI2HI]

The S256 is a T3 housing is a bad ass little package. I personally have been running it on cars for over a year now w/ fantastic results. We were able to put down 558whp/445trq in testing on a 98 Integra. We also used it on a SOHC D16 civic which made 405whp@23psi stock head, cam, intake which are very restrictive about 300hp on those applications. The civic was able to run 11.2@133 on 25 psi.

Currently have a 2G and an EVO in the shop getting equipped w/ the S256 and the Integra is going back for testing here shortly w/ the S366.

 

[PSI2HI]

Applications from 550whp-800whp

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[steel_3d]

Can you compare the spool time to let's say a gt3076r? Or Garrett 50-trim?

What's the difference between the Schwitzer and unbadged comp housings?

 

[nanokpsi]

What irks me is the clear lack of information about these turbos. Suposedly, the 366 is a 66mm wheel, when in fact according to BW, it is a 71mm compressor.
I can go to garrett's website, get all of the dimensions for the compressor wheel, and even study the compressor map. Untill such a thing exists for the BW head units, the market will stay relatively small. You can find some maps for some of the turbos, but most of the maps that vendors have up for these are incorrect.

I won't even go into the comparison regarding the t67 again........

 

[DSM90AWD]

Suposedly, the 366 is a 66mm wheel, when in fact according to BW, it is a 71mm compressor

Do you have a link to that? The specs I found on one of the Borg Warner vendors sites is that the S300 series came in three flavours: S362 (62mm=65lb-min), S364 (64mm=75lb-min) and S366 (66mm=80lb-min).

The 71mm (100lb-min) was only offered in the S400 series although may fit in an S300 unit

 

[Street Surgeon]

Wow, at first I was really thinking about running one of these pieces but the lack of info really just pointed me right towards a nice FP piece, not that much more money, a proven piece and real performer.

 

[PSI2HI]

I have comp maps for the S256, S258, and S366. There is a wide variety of units available from Borg Warner just depends on what your overall goal your looking for and whats fits your vehicle. There was just testing completed on the prototype S370 which is a 70mm compressor and just put down 826whp @ 39 psi.

Problem w/ everyone slinging misinformation is that not many know all the varients that are available and that are being produced so everyone just starts throwing out #'s and getting everyone all mixed up and confused on what is what. We @ SLS have been using and testing these units now for over a year. The new refrence #'s you'll see now such as S256, S258, S366, etc will refer to compressor size. Such as the 256 is a 56mm, 258 is a 58mm, and so on.

 

[IPT]

Such as the 256 is a 56mm, 258 is a 58mm, and so on.

This is the compressor wheel inducer size. Not the exducer size like garrett uses on most of their GT series.

 

[IPT]

What irks me is the clear lack of information about these turbos. Suposedly, the 366 is a 66mm wheel, when in fact according to BW, it is a 71mm compressor.

Where are you getting your info from? The S300 turbine wheel has a 71mm exducer... Is that what you are thinking of?

 

[nanokpsi]

Where are you getting your info from? The S300 turbine wheel has a 71mm exducer... Is that what you are thinking of?

A friend of mine needed a sub 67.xmm inducer turbo to compete in a class (inducer limit). Hearing of the s366's flow I immediately suggetsed it. He then contated BW and they told him it was a 71mm wheel.

Maybe BW was confused about the name of it since there seem to be a lot of vendor created combos, but tey in fact told him it was a 71mm.

 

[IPT]

A friend of mine needed a sub 67.xmm inducer turbo to compete in a class (inducer limit). Hearing of the s366's flow I immediately suggetsed it. He then contated BW and they told him it was a 71mm wheel.

Maybe BW was confused about the name of it since there seem to be a lot of vendor created combos, but tey in fact told him it was a 71mm.

How did he call BW? You can't just call Borg Warner anymore than you can call Garrett. I would guess that he talked to BW distributer. I wonder which one they should have known better.

Anyways the S366 IS a 66mm inducer with a 91mm exducer and the extended tips are 96mm.

Here seems to have the most information on the Borg-Warner lineup when it comes to the measurements.

 

[nanokpsi]

How did he call BW? You can't just call Borg Warner anymore than you can call Garrett. I would guess that he talked to BW distributer. I wonder which one they should have known better.

Anyways the S366 IS a 66mm inducer with a 91mm exducer and the extended tips are 96mm.

Here seems to have the most information on the Borg-Warner lineup when it comes to the measurements.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to find out who told him it was a 71mm wheel.

They seem to have the measurements down, but they have the same map listed for the 364 and 366.
Since everyday Joe apparently can't get in contact with BW, if their isn't correct info from the vendors, then the constumer has nothing to go buy. The inconsistencies also make it difficult to trust the information that is there.

/vent