New turbo from bullseye?

[DSM90AWD]

Comparing a full Garrett 35R to the S256 is like comparing a 20G to a 14B, not even close.

Just for fun, for a better compare, I plotted your 3rd gear pull against a 50-trim 23psi pull I did last month w.r.t. airflow.
Our setups are near identical cept that I have a JMF SMIM which should only help in the upper RPMs (I actually saw little diffs <6.5K vs my 1G manifold) though you cut your run off before that would actually have any impact (e.g. I'm handicapped in the lower RPMs).

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Love to see a [echo-on] full pull [/echo-on] to see how airflow progresses past the 7K range as theory with this housing is that it should fall off due to the increased backpressure

 

[Steve93Talon]

Interesting. Were the mods the same as what's listed in your profile? If so, you also have to take into account that I'm on HKS 272s and the FP2s will outflow them up top. I'm debating whether I should swap cams now or see what I can get out of the 272s.

I'll take it out for more logging on Saturday, I've gotta get the coolant temps down a bit. I'm not liking 200+F in the middle of winter. I'm assuming your 50 trim was the AGP L2 listed in your profile? Doesn't that use the same BEP housing?

 

[DSM90AWD]

Yes, the setup was exactly the same as in my profile and was the first pull with my new 950s so was still tuning but is a good representation. My L2 is one of the earlier versions that used a modified Mitsu 7cm housing so should be similar to the BEP in flow.

I'd honestly not replace 272s for FP2s. FP2x's sure, but would need a spring upgrade.

BTW I'm seeing 49.5 lb-min in the later 7s (maxed out) which is why I'm interested in your findings

I've attached the DSMLink log

 

[Steve93Talon]

Yes, the setup was exactly the same as in my profile and was the first pull with my new 950s so was still tuning but is a good representation. My L2 is one of the earlier versions that used a modified Mitsu 7cm housing so should be similar to the BEP in flow.

I'd honestly not replace 272s for FP2s. FP2x's sure, but would need a spring upgrade.

BTW I'm seeing 49.5 lb-min in the later 7s (maxed out) which is why I'm interested in your findings

I've attached the DSMLink log

Aah, you got the "prototype"

I didn't say anything about going to FP2s if I switch

I'll be revving to about 7500, doubt I'd flow anymore above that with a stock intake. We'll see what happens.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Here's another log. upped the boost to about 25psi, coolant temps are still over 200 which is pulling timing a bit, peak airflow is 50.6 lb/min, 70-90 time is down to 1.63 seconds. This log also shows spool time more accurately. Might be a bit more in it on pump, but I'm not gonna push it any more. Time for the meth and then race gas. Besides, as you can see from the logs, playtime is over until I get some bigger injectors.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Nice, Steve. BTW, I buggered up my original graph in Excel as didn't' realize that unless you use a scatter-graph, both data series will use the same X-axis values.

Anyway, I corrected this and added your new data log which shows a nice gain in the lower RPMs, though I catch up by 7200. Looking good! With the cold temps, will have to take a 25psi run myself

 

[Steve93Talon]

Cold air temps maybe, my coolant temps are killing my knock threshold though.

You're gonna make me run up to Jim's and "borrow" a JMF SMIM, aint ya

 

[definitiveno]

You're gonna make me run up to Jim's and "borrow" a JMF SMIM, aint ya

If you have a soul and would like to reserve a spot for it some place other than hell, yes. Yes he is.

 

[nanokpsi]

Holy bejeezus...
25 deg intake temps will certainly help your airflow!

 

[Steve93Talon]

The low temps do help, but I'm losing a degree of timing due to the coolant temps and another degree when air temps are under like 34F. I'd like to see how it pulls up top without the dip in timing. Here's a pic of the setup, I realized I hadn't posted it yet.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Steve, check the chart in post #126 as I made another 3rd pull on my 50-trim over the weekend at 24.4psi. Had a large knock spike at the end so stopped at 7.5K though still got over 50lbs-min

Love to see you push that thing even harder to see how much airflow you can get

 

[definitiveno]

Man steve, have to wonder if it's just your intake mani thats making you fall flat at 6250, aren't you curious what your air flow will look like with a jmf intake on there?

 

[Steve93Talon]

Man steve, have to wonder if it's just your intake mani thats making you fall flat at 6250, aren't you curious what your air flow will look like with a jmf intake on there?

I think it's a combination of things. Like I said, I'm running less aggressive HKS 272s so that's gonna hurt me up top slightly. The stock intake isn't helping things either. And lastly, between the high coolant temps, low charge temps, and the fact that I'm way out of injector, the timing is being pulled to like 12 degrees up top. This is the result of literally 5-10 minutes of tuning time. Once I get the 950s in, rewire the fan, and play with it a little more, I'd expect it to be a bit more linear up to at least 7k. I'd rule out the housing for now considering that it's at least as big as the Mitsu 7cm that John is running, and also Carl's HX40 setup on the BEP housing held ~500whp to 8k.

I think no matter what else I tweak, I'm still pretty much at the knock threshold of pump gas anyway. I'd rather have a fat powerband with more midrange than have to wind it up to 8k to make power. To me, airflow logs and dyno graphs are neat, but timeslips tell the real story. If I can run mid 11s right off the street on pump and low 11s (maybe crack 10s) on race gas, I'll be more than happy.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Steve, outta couriosity, does your Actual AFRs regularly deviate from the DSMLink's 1G fuel estimates by ~2points even when not >= 100% DC)?

I've a pet theory (since mine is ~1point off) which has to do with excessive backpressure sneaking back into the combustion chamber during overlap dilluting the mixture. As both our turbine housings are "smallish", seem plausible?

BTW, I'm in no way knocking your turbo as it is performing well for you. Just (since you are the guinnie DSMer to run one) trying to squeeze as much info outta you so others can benefit

 

[Steve93Talon]

Steve, outta couriosity, does your Actual AFRs regularly deviate from the DSMLink's 1G fuel estimates by ~2points even when not >= 100% DC)?

I've a pet theory (since mine is ~1point off) which has to do with excessive backpressure sneaking back into the combustion chamber during overlap dilluting the mixture. As both our turbine housings are "smallish", seem plausible?

BTW, I'm in no way knocking your turbo as it is performing well for you. Just (since you are the guinnie DSMer to run one) trying to squeeze as much info outta you so others can benefit

I don't put a ton of faith in the wideband reading, since it's a PLX using the EGR temp input, which has compatibility issues. But since installing the new setup, it's definitely running leaner than the A/F est. I was thinking maybe since the IDC is over 100%, that could have something to do with it.

Your theory is possible, but I'm not sure exactly how you'd go about proving or disproving it. We're setting up a pressure sensor on Carl's manifold that we can log with AEM so that we can graph intake-to-exhaust pressure ratio. I'd love to see the same data with a PTE and FP housing for comparison. I know the FP's housing is larger, but I'd like to see what kind of pressures you get on a 35psi setup at 550-600whp. I'd also bet that the PTE has more turbine pressure than the others, yet the heated debates always seem to center around the BEP housings.

I know you're not knocking it. I'm running it to see what it can do. If it logged 42 lb/min on C16 and choked over 5k, I'd still post my results. I've been impressed with the spool up and pump gas power on it and I think the BWs are great turbos to fill the gap between the PTE stuff and the FPs. As you said, I'm trying to squeeze "info" out of it - not power. I'm on a stock intake/head/bottom end, full weight, no cage, no scattershield, regular radials, etc. This means whatever I get out of it, I'd expect others to be able to duplicate or exceed. I'm only saying this because whenever someone runs well with something new, there are usually a bunch of posts (not implying you) to the effect of "well, you're great at tuning/your car is gutted/you know how to drive/,..."

 

[IPT]

Keep going Steve. Great info!!

 

[definitiveno]

IPT, what is it you have against garrett? I always see you in all the Holset threads and now the Borg Warner thread.....

 

[IPT]

IPT, what is it you have against garrett? I always see you in all the Holset threads and now the Borg Warner thread.....

I like to be different. I have ran alot of Garrett turbos. I like that they have alot of variety for compressor wheels and turbine options (wheels and housings). I am not really a fan of the GT lineup. I thought they were the best thing when they came out. Then it died and it cost almost as much to fix it as it was to purchase it for the first time. That left a bad taste in my mouth. I have had an HX35 on my 2G for a number of years now (can't remember when it was put on.) and love it. I have beat the crap out of it and it is still as tight as the day it was installed. IT WON'T DIE! The holsets are REALLY limited on the choices. The New borg Warner turbos have a VERY beefy center section and turbine shaft. I have seen BW units that have been ran at 50+psi with a hot shut down at the end of the track and no blow off valve and they lasted alot longer than the garrett that was on the same car the year before.

This is my personal experience. Other people may have different experiences and have different opinions.

Don't get me wrong. I think that a bolton 50trim for the DSM is one killer turbo. Also 57trims work great on D-series honda motors and both of those are a great bang for the buck. So I use them for certain applications.

Hopefully this helps you. If you want to talk PM me.

LAter

 

[Steve93Talon]

Another update. I went to the track last night, pretty much expecting to run 13s because of all the wheelspin I've been experiencing on the street. First pass, I was paranoid about spinning so I came out soft, bogged ridiculously, and ran a 12.5 @ 117 with a 2.08 60'. Then I figured since the track seemed to be sticking ok, I came out hard and spun madly through 1st and into 2nd and ran a 12.1 @ 118.

Then I came out slightly softer, managed a 1.8 60' (I used to cut low 1.6s on these tires with the 14b), and ran an 11.94 @ 119 with 95.8 mph in the 1/8th. It was also knocking in 4th, I'm thinking it's partly because my coolant temps were still high from the previous run and partly because I'm a bit on the lean side from the high IDCs. I still need to figure out why the coolant temps are going over 200F even in cold weather.

All in all, I can't complain. My first time out on the new setup and I've got new personal best ET and MPHs in less than ideal conditions. I'm dangerously out of injector and tire, hopefully with that resolved I can cut some more 1.6s and get an 11.5-11.6 out of it on pump. I'm really itching to see what it can do with some race gas now.

 

[T9S1i]

nice numbers on pump!!!
ive been waiting for some 1/4 mile numbers with this turbo. I seem to be torn between which 50 trim i should get. Im looking at the plain jane 5031, the green, and the s200.

How much boost were you running for this run? What octane gas? And what rpm do you shift at?

Thanks for all the good info man, i already plan to copy your CAI setup that you showed in the dsmlink forums.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Thanks. For reference, I ran 11.9 @ 117 awhile back on a Green, same car, same weight, similar mods except I had stock cams back then, same boost but on C16. I'm running around 25psi on 93 octane now. Most 2 liters with bolt-on style turbos are knock limited to about 50 lb/min on pump, so I'm expecting the real difference to be on race gas where I can crank the boost and see if I can push this thing to the rated 56 lb/min or more. I attached a log from the best pass.

 

[steel_3d]

How's your spool, Steve?

 

[Steve93Talon]

I see 25psi by about 3700. The transient response is very fast as well.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Nice times Steve. Are you HP/Tork props setup correctly as remember on the last log you posted (albeit was in near single digit temps ;P) was 40-50more WHP than this run?

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

we have been using a S200 on an EVO we are building. So far it is very impressive as far as response. We just rebuilt the Exedy TD clutch so we can't get on it just yet but we are very optimistic.

my media server is acting up a little. i'll post some pics later this afternoon