ECMlink Need help with WOT tune. keeps pulling timing

[627galantEvan]

Hello everyone, I recently started tuning my 1992 galant vr4 (627/1000). Its a 6 bolt 2.3l using a butchered crank, manley H-beams, forged ross pistons, 1000cc PTE injectors and an "old school" FP red turbo. I have a MAFt with a GM 3in maf with the sliders all zero'd out. Has a lightweight flywheel and 6 puck if that matters.
I think I got it to cruise and idle pretty good but I am hit or miss on my WOT tuning. sometimes its pretty good then sometimes it pulls timing or runs lean? I am mainly confused by the MAFClamp function and which way to turn the sliders. I have attached a cruise log that has a WOT 3rd gear pull until it started pulling timing at the beginning of the log. I can upload more WOT logs if needed. thats pretty much where i am at. I dont think my timing table is super aggressive either but you guys can be the judge of that. Its running around 20psi off of my gauge. I am new to this so any tips would be greatly appreciated. I also got this dsmlink and computer from a guy who already had a tune on it. So i never had a stock tune to begin with, if there is anything you guys see thats off please let me know

I am also using narrowband sim using my LC1 wideband just after the o2 housing.

 

[steve]

You don't want the MAFclamp at all. By sliders I assume you mean the dials in the MAFT box and not the sliders in DSMlink?

 

[627galantEvan]

You don't want the MAFclamp at all. By sliders I assume you mean the dials in the MAFT box and not the sliders in DSMlink?

yes sorry the dials on the MAFt box itself not the sliders in dsmlink my bad. And from what I am understanding you are supposed to use maf clamp when the MAFRaw hz reading goes above what mafcomp HZ table goes up to? When I am at full boost around 20 psi my hz reading gets into the 4000s where the mafcomp sliders only go up to 3600?

 

[steve]

Talking about both MAFT and DSMLink was confusing as to which your referring to. Both have a MAFClamp function but only the one in DSMLink is safe since it extrapolates airflow above the clamp point from your VE map. The MAFT one as I understand it just limited the output so it wouldn't go higher causing you to lean out.

 

[627galantEvan]

Please guys

 

[Stapl3]

Please guys

It pulls timing because you told it to pull timing by moving the timing sliders down @ 4500rpm -3*, 5000rpm -2*, 5500rpm -2*, 6000rpm -2*, 6500rpm -2*, 7000rpm -2*. On top of that the timing used on your table during 5000, 5500, 6000rpm is stoned at 17* then dips to 16* at 6500, and 14* beyond that which is bizarre.

That aside, if you have your MAFComp sliders down across the entire board ~10%, then your fuel settings are wrong by 10%. You are using the airflow sliders as a fuel adjustment which is the wrong approach.

And very importantly. You say it's a 2.3L engine, but you have LoadScale in DA at 100% when it should be 87% (If you tell me the overbore on your pistons I can give you a more exact number here).

 

[627galantEvan]

It pulls timing because you told it to pull timing by moving the timing sliders down @ 4500rpm -3*, 5000rpm -2*, 5500rpm -2*, 6000rpm -2*, 6500rpm -2*, 7000rpm -2*. On top of that the timing used on your table during 5000, 5500, 6000rpm is stoned at 17* then dips to 16* at 6500, and 14* beyond that which is bizarre.

That aside, if you have your MAFComp sliders down across the entire board ~10%, then your fuel settings are wrong by 10%. You are using the airflow sliders as a fuel adjustment which is the wrong approach.

And very importantly. You say it's a 2.3L engine, but you have LoadScale in DA at 100% when it should be 87% (If you tell me the overbore on your pistons I can give you a more exact number here).

I thought the sliders were only adding (or subtracting) from the timing table, as like a quick adjustment. So if i had it at 17 degrees at 4500, and moved the 4500rpm slider -3 then it would put it at 14, not actually retard the timing. Im running into knock retard. I guess thats what i should have put in the beginning. I was using the sliders to isolate the problem and try to keep it from knocking. Most of my timing table is from me either pulling timing or adding it based on where i got knock retard. Should my decrease in timing be more gradual as it goes up in rpm? I did recently get the load scaling correct. this log was before that. Thank you for the help!

 

[Stapl3]

I thought the sliders were only adding (or subtracting) from the timing table, as like a quick adjustment. So if i had it at 17 degrees at 4500, and moved the 4500rpm slider -3 then it would put it at 14, not actually retard the timing. Im running into knock retard. I guess thats what i should have put in the beginning. I was using the sliders to isolate the problem and try to keep it from knocking. Most of my timing table is from me either pulling timing or adding it based on where i got knock retard. Should my decrease in timing be more gradual as it goes up in rpm? I did recently get the load scaling correct. this log was before that. Thank you for the help!

Are you using gasoline or e85?

Once these engines begin to knock it's near impossible to get it to stop without essentially neutering the tune, so we just keep them from knocking in the first place. If you're on pump gas, having timing at 17* when peak boost hits is not going to work out for you, and 14* won't either.. For timing, you want it to dip while spooling, hold steady from peak boost to peak torque, then ramp it up to redline. If you're on gas, you may only be able to get up to single digit timing numbers at redline. So keep that in mind as you work around that value of 17.

And not to pick on you, but I just saw your fuel sliders and they're up 9% while at the exact same time your mafcomp sliders are down 10%. It's like turning on a humidifier and dehumidifier in a room and closing the door.

 

[627galantEvan]

Are you using gasoline or e85?

Once these engines begin to knock it's near impossible to get it to stop without essentially neutering the tune, so we just keep them from knocking in the first place. If you're on pump gas, having timing at 17* when peak boost hits is not going to work out for you, and 14* won't either.. For timing, you want it to dip while spooling, hold steady from peak boost to peak torque, then ramp it up to redline. If you're on gas, you may only be able to get up to single digit timing numbers at redline. So keep that in mind as you work around that value of 17.

And not to pick on you, but I just saw your fuel sliders and they're up 9% while at the exact same time your mafcomp sliders are down 10%. It's like turning on a humidifier and dehumidifier in a room and closing the door.

I really appreciate the tips brother. I am not sure how i got that table so out of wack. Im on pump 91. And honestly i forgot that i did that to the fuel sliders, I think i got carried away trying to rule out lean knock. Dont worry about picking on me haha anything to keep me from blowing up. Pick on me all you want I am here to learn. Im going to go for a drive soon. As far as all of my maf comp sliders being down 10% that would fall into my global fuel setting right? So moving that closer to zero should help get them in the right spot?

 

[Stapl3]

I really appreciate the tips brother. I am not sure how i got that table so out of wack. Im on pump 91. And honestly i forgot that i did that to the fuel sliders, I think i got carried away trying to rule out lean knock. Dont worry about picking on me haha anything to keep me from blowing up. Pick on me all you want I am here to learn. Im going to go for a drive soon. As far as all of my maf comp sliders being down 10% that would fall into my global fuel setting right? So moving that closer to zero should help get them in the right spot?

I ask e85 or pump because your target ratio is 11.8. With e85 I target 12.0. With pump I've targeted as lean as 11.3, some go for 12.0. You're going to have many opinions with this I think. What I have discovered is the richer you are, the more forgiving it is. I personally haven't noticed a benefit from targeting on the lean side. In fact, if I was forced to run 91, I would be targeting incredibly rich. The fuel cools down the burn quelling out knock and maybe allowing you to run a degree or two more timing. Stock is 9.6 (I think), and that isn't a smoke show, at all, so makes me wonder what the limit is with going rich. 9.0? 8.5?
For you, I would target 10.0 now, then later mess around. At this exact moment your target of 11.8 is NOT helping anything.

91 is about as bad as it gets for fuel, so you really need to rework the TmingMaxOct table a lot. Timing will not be your friend. Your values are super high, higher that I'd use with e85. The ramp down instead of up toward redline is backwards but you're starting so damn high to begin with.
Go to the part of the log where you go WOT, then go into Direct Access and pull up TmingMaxOct table. Hit track datalog in the upper right corner. It will then show you the cells used on the table throughout your pull. See the cells selected and see how it's not ideal. I can mess with the table for you, and probably will if I get stoned later , but it's literally right there.

Zero out the MAFComp sliders, the fuel sliders, timing sliders. Your global fuel setting won't be correct at this point, but we can sort that out next and it won't be a problem for now.

Change LoadScale to 87%. This is an absolute must. Do you know the overbore of your pistons for a better value to use?

 

[Imback]

I have had a few customers come to me with maf-t and they are more trouble than they're worth. You already have ecmlink v3 so why have a 2nd piggi back when v3 can give you SD or if you want to stick with a MAF for simplicity you can go 2g or 3g/evo maf. If you want to reset v3 back to stock values here is a link with the steps.

v3hardreset [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.ecmtuning.com

I am not trying to discourage you from learning how to tune but i would spend some more time in the ecmlink forums reading as well as the wiki which helped me a ton 15+ yrs ago. Goodluck with your galant.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I am with @Stapl3 . You have to quench knock BEFORE it starts or its a runaway train. On gasoline, I can only get 8*, maybe, of timing before knock comes in. My motors are either 9:1 or 10:1, depending on the car I talk about, but it really didn't make a difference. They both don't like gas and alot of timing. Lower the timing and you lower performance but the car will like you for it. 91 is the best fuel I can get except E85, which is why a couple of mine are usually on E. One, the Red Talon, is exclusively on E, even though it and all of my DSM's are flex fuel cars.

 

[627galantEvan]

I ask e85 or pump because your target ratio is 11.8. With e85 I target 12.0. With pump I've targeted as lean as 11.3, some go for 12.0. You're going to have many opinions with this I think. What I have discovered is the richer you are, the more forgiving it is. I personally haven't noticed a benefit from targeting on the lean side. In fact, if I was forced to run 91, I would be targeting incredibly rich. The fuel cools down the burn quelling out knock and maybe allowing you to run a degree or two more timing. Stock is 9.6 (I think), and that isn't a smoke show, at all, so makes me wonder what the limit is with going rich. 9.0? 8.5?
For you, I would target 10.0 now, then later mess around. At this exact moment your target of 11.8 is NOT helping anything.

91 is about as bad as it gets for fuel, so you really need to rework the TmingMaxOct table a lot. Timing will not be your friend. Your values are super high, higher that I'd use with e85. The ramp down instead of up toward redline is backwards but you're starting so damn high to begin with.
Go to the part of the log where you go WOT, then go into Direct Access and pull up TmingMaxOct table. Hit track datalog in the upper right corner. It will then show you the cells used on the table throughout your pull. See the cells selected and see how it's not ideal. I can mess with the table for you, and probably will if I get stoned later , but it's literally right there.

Zero out the MAFComp sliders, the fuel sliders, timing sliders. Your global fuel setting won't be correct at this point, but we can sort that out next and it won't be a problem for now.

Change LoadScale to 87%. This is an absolute must. Do you know the overbore of your pistons for a better value to use?

Got it I will richen up the whole wot part of the table and go from there. I have put an evo 8 timing map on from the ecmlink website and it knocked a lot less. Pulled maybe .7 degrees and 2 counts of knock. Somehow my injectors are at almost 80% duty cycle at 21psi of boost and running 11.5 or so afr. It is not fast so im a little interested in why my idcs are so high. I will definitely get some logs today and post them. Thank you for the help

 

[627galantEvan]

I am with @Stapl3 . You have to quench knock BEFORE it starts or its a runaway train. On gasoline, I can only get 8*, maybe, of timing before knock comes in. My motors are either 9:1 or 10:1, depending on the car I talk about, but it really didn't make a difference. They both don't like gas and alot of timing. Lower the timing and you lower performance but the car will like you for it. 91 is the best fuel I can get except E85, which is why a couple of mine are usually on E. One, the Red Talon, is exclusively on E, even though it and all of my DSM's are flex fuel cars.

Yeah i am reworking from the beginning again. Im already learning a lot just from what you guys have said. Appreciate it

 

[627galantEvan]

I have had a few customers come to me with maf-t and they are more trouble than they're worth. You already have ecmlink v3 so why have a 2nd piggi back when v3 can give you SD or if you want to stick with a MAF for simplicity you can go 2g or 3g/evo maf. If you want to reset v3 back to stock values here is a link with the steps.

v3hardreset [ECMTuning - wiki]

www.ecmtuning.com

I am not trying to discourage you from learning how to tune but i would spend some more time in the ecmlink forums reading as well as the wiki which helped me a ton 15+ yrs ago. Goodluck with your galant.

Yeah I think the maft may be throwing off my research cause most of the guys who post have a 2g or evo maf and the values dont seem to line up. My gm maf is a blow through right before the throttle body. Would i be able to toss an evo maf right there? Or would it have to go on the intake side of my turbo? Might as well do SD if thats the case. I will keep reading. This is something i really want to learn how to do. And if i can do it without blowing my fresh build i would be happy

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Go Speed Density. In my eyes, it saves headaches and is pretty simple to tune. Only one man's opinion tho.

 

[627galantEvan]

I ask e85 or pump because your target ratio is 11.8. With e85 I target 12.0. With pump I've targeted as lean as 11.3, some go for 12.0. You're going to have many opinions with this I think. What I have discovered is the richer you are, the more forgiving it is. I personally haven't noticed a benefit from targeting on the lean side. In fact, if I was forced to run 91, I would be targeting incredibly rich. The fuel cools down the burn quelling out knock and maybe allowing you to run a degree or two more timing. Stock is 9.6 (I think), and that isn't a smoke show, at all, so makes me wonder what the limit is with going rich. 9.0? 8.5?
For you, I would target 10.0 now, then later mess around. At this exact moment your target of 11.8 is NOT helping anything.

91 is about as bad as it gets for fuel, so you really need to rework the TmingMaxOct table a lot. Timing will not be your friend. Your values are super high, higher that I'd use with e85. The ramp down instead of up toward redline is backwards but you're starting so damn high to begin with.
Go to the part of the log where you go WOT, then go into Direct Access and pull up TmingMaxOct table. Hit track datalog in the upper right corner. It will then show you the cells used on the table throughout your pull. See the cells selected and see how it's not ideal. I can mess with the table for you, and probably will if I get stoned later , but it's literally right there.

Zero out the MAFComp sliders, the fuel sliders, timing sliders. Your global fuel setting won't be correct at this point, but we can sort that out next and it won't be a problem for now.

Change LoadScale to 87%. This is an absolute must. Do you know the overbore of your pistons for a better value to use?

Heres a new log with one of the evo 8 maps from ecmlink website. I didnt change my fuel table, but i did adjust all of my fuel and maf comp sliders back to zero. In my map it calls for 11.8 afr which i am now aware is too lean, however the actual AFR is in the low 10s. I replaced the fuel sock as well as the fuel filter today and it looks like my IDCs have come down a little. There are two WOT 3rd gear to 7500rpm pulls in that log as well as a couple 2nd and 4th gear pulls. overall the log looks better.

 

[Stapl3]

In my map it calls for 11.8 afr which i am now aware is too lean, however the actual AFR is in the low 10s.

The entire game here is to get the engine to do exactly what the ECU tells it. The ECU is saying it wants 11.8, but the result is mid 10s. So calibration is needed. Adjust global OR base fuel pressure accordingly to get AFRatioEST to line up with LC1WB during the WOT pull. If you're concerned with IDCs, I would adjust the global instead of lowering the fuel pressure, but ~75% is comfy.

If you do only this fuel adjustment, you might get knock as you'll now be getting 11.8 in the table, so before taking the car out again also change the target value on the table from 11.8 to around 10.0.

Does your MAF have the honeycombs/screen on it? It's a bit choppy for my liking. Zero out your MAFComp sliders as that wave is helping absolutely nothing.