My old highschool car

[We're on Boost]

It's not possible to idle above 1500 if throttle is actually closed. You mentioned cuts at 1400rpm. Betting it's 1500 and what you're describing is idle surge. Log idle position switch. Anytime you're off gas it should be on. At idle if rpm goes up ( leaks etc) rpm hits 1500 but switch is closed ecu cuts fuel. Idle drops and fuel come back on, cycle repeats.

Actually I messed up when I said his latest log still has those injector cuts during idle at 1400 rpm. I must have been looking at the log before.
In this latest log (12.30-02) his idle is higher, 1700-1800 rpm, and the Injectors are on all the time, and the Idle Switch is 1 (closed).
So is it strange that it's not cutting under those conditions?
It has a lot of injector off time but it's all when there is 20, 30, 40 mph Speed, RPM appropriate for that road speed, so he is rolling along and taking his foot off the gas, those would just be normal coasting FC which is OK.
But just the fact of it idling at 1700-1800 with the idle switch closed, and 0 MPH, is that "not possible if the throttle is actually closed"? Does that mean pretty much for sure that his throttle butterfly is just not closing all the way? Like the throttle cable is too tight, or the butterfly is hanging up on the body wall? That high idle was happening at 260-335 seconds like Nick said.

The log that does have a whole lot of injector cuts during idle at 0 MPH with the idle switch closed and RPM ramping up to ~1400-1500 then cuts, is the next previous log (12.26-02). I'm not sure where we are at with that right now because there wasn't that type of thing in the 12.30-02 log.

 

[We're on Boost]

After 210 sec it is starting to do those little half second fuel cuts at 1400 rpm again (InjOn goes to 0). Maybe that is the misfire or shudder you are talking about. I thought the high coasting fuel cut number would fix that but it didn't.

Yeah I think I messed up when I said that.
Actually we did fix that or at least change it, by putting 1000 into the Coasting FC Offset field, where there was 0 before.
In both logs the car is wanting to idle very high.
The difference is that in the 12.26 log, it gets Coasting FC at about 1500 rpm because that is the stock point at which Coasting FC occurs like Pauleyman says. We got the stock FC there because of 0 in the offset field.
But in the 12.30 log where we have 1000 rpm in the offset field, that raises the Coasting FC offset point to 1000 + 850 (target idle) which would be 1850. The car is still wanting to idle high but it doesn't quite reach the new Coasting FC rpm of 1850.

So now I think it's just a matter of finding out why it wants to idle so high and fixing that, plus all the other stuff that still needs to be done.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Happy new year everyone!!

It's been a while since I did anything. I did adjust the biss screw and that got the idle down but still is bogging a little bit but is driveable.

When it gets warmer I will switch out the injectors, fuel pump, and get a pressure regulator and minus well do another filter while there.

I am about to order a new ignition coil pack when I get money if you guys think that could be the culprit.

My eclipse had a similar issue but not the exact same but I switched out the coil pack and that was the issue.

While the talon was running I did pull each plug off at a time and the car reacted to each one then when I went to put th4 plug back on it could hear and see it sparking, so dose that rule out the ignition coil pack before I buy one or could it just be starting to go out.

 

[We're on Boost]

I am about to order a new ignition coil pack when I get money if you guys think that could be the culprit.

My eclipse had a similar issue but not the exact same but I switched out the coil pack and that was the issue.

While the talon was running I did pull each plug off at a time and the car reacted to each one then when I went to put th4 plug back on it could hear and see it sparking, so dose that rule out the ignition coil pack before I buy one or could it just be starting to go out.

Well I think first you should use the "Change" button in MAF Comp to put a -10.2 into the Global Scalar blank and save that to the ECU. Like I showed in post #195. Don't do "Auto Adj". Just go Change, New global scalar -10.2, OK. Because in your last log it was still running way too lean just about everywhere, and that could be part of the cutting out or bogging or whatever it is that's happening. It will be good to make that change anyway because then we can see if it reduces your fuel trims like it should do.

Then put in low timing values in the first 21 cells like I showed in post 194.

As far as buying a new coil pack, well, the price on them is lower than ever right now and 2 of the good brands are still available from Rock Auto - Standard Motor Products, and WVE. Those things might all have tariffs on them pretty soon so today's prices might be the lowest we'll ever see. Or who knows they might become unavailable at some inconvenient time, like when you for sure need one! On the other hand the USD has mostly been going up versus the JPY for the last 4 years, and if that continued it would help hold our prices down.
So it wouldn't be a bad idea to buy one but I don't think I've seen anything in your logs that tells me you need one. It would be real easy to put a -10.2 into your global scalar. We could try that first and see if the boggy problem still happens.
The one-by-one test on the spark plug wires doesn't totally rule it out because it could be some intermittent thing that's hard to repeat.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Ok. I will get those changed and I will definitely order one next Friday on payday then. Today the high is 47 so I will use that to my advantage and get those changed and saved to the ecu.

When I have the laptop out and hooked up I will also put the isc in the logs on link.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Got some news guys. I put a new ignition coil pack on and swapped out the power transistor on the car and nothing changed. Still misfire.

Gary, i did make those changes in the global scale at -10.2, then i also made the timing changes in those 21 colums on both the min & max timing.

No check engine light but i am getting a dtc code # 0044 that says Ignition circuit malfunction.

While the car was running i started to unplug the wires one by one and this time i noticed there was no change on cylinder 2. It is sparking but there wasnt any change like their was in cylinders 4&3. I couldnt really tell if there was a change in cylinder 1.



Here is a log i made but there was no driving. If need be i will make another log going around the neighborhood.

Here is a pic of the new coil pack and of the motor bay just because .

 

[awdtsi_90]

Here is a video, and right at the beginning you can hear the misfire. (sounding like a Subaru)

 

[We're on Boost]

Wow your closed loop idle has come down to about 1,000 rpm now. Good.
Ignition timing in those first 21 cells is good now.

The DTC 44 could be the electrical connector on either the coil pack or the power transistor:

On my car we had that problem, bad connector on the power transistor causing a misfire. It was worse. It would sometimes be ok and other times it would run on only 2 cylinders. We noticed that if I pushed sideways a little bit on the connector while the engine was running on 2 cylinders, it would clean up the problem completely. So it was obviously the connector. I made a new connector from fresh new stuff eventually, but at first we "fixed" it by just getting a real good look into the plug on the harness, a good look at the metal terminals inside, and one of them was visibly bent weird. My son fiddled around with it with like a mini screw driver or something and he got that one terminal re-bent enough so it actually worked. I don't remember if we got a DTC code for that problem but seems like we should have.
On your car I notice that the misfire only happens when you poke the gas pedal to rev the engine while it's sitting in neutral. Maybe just from the torque reaction that throws the engine around a little bit then, it could make that connector lose contact for just an instant. It seems to run just fine whenever you are not blipping the throttle.

I can't figure out why your new Maf Comp numbers in this latest log are the same as they were before, yet there is now -10.2 in the Global Scalar. So I'm not sure that it actually did anything. I was expecting it to look like what I showed in post #195. That way it's fairly clear that it should be doing something. The numbers I'm talking about, it's the Adj% numbers that range from 11.7 down to 1.6 on your MAF Comp page. When I used the change button in your log I got numbers there from 24.2 to 13.3 and the whole curve was elevated, just like in post #195. I tried to reproduce what your Comp curve looks like and couldn't do it! So I don't get it what it's doing there. I expected yours to look just like post #195.

 

[We're on Boost]

I can't figure out why your new Maf Comp numbers in this latest log are the same as they were before, yet there is now -10.2 in the Global Scalar. So I'm not sure that it actually did anything.

Yeah that MAF Comp didn't work. Your MAF and MAFRaw numbers are about the same, so it didn't work. Also the Combined Fuel Trims are still very high, so it didn't work.
So here's what to do instead:

On your MAF Comp page, change the Global Scalar value back to 0.
Then Manually move the yellow dots to be about like this. You can use the numbers in the Adj% column for check or to do the changes.

Then save that to the ECU.

You'll notice in my picture there are some white dots. I pretty much followed those for Hz up to 500. Above 500 Hz the white dots are no good because your setup goes into open loop above 500 Hz. But below 500 Hz the white dots should be pretty good, and they agree with the Combined Fuel Trim numbers in your 12.30-02 log.

I got the white dots from your 12.30-02 log by using this thing that you get with a right click on the face of the log, called "MAFComp Adjust (Combined FT). Like this:

Then, next time you log a run, look for a loggable parameter called MAFComp in your Captured Values list and log it. Then I think we can see in your logs if the MAF Comp is working.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Could this be a CAS or a ecu issue? The ignition coil is the brand new one I had on the eclipse before the clutch went out so I know it was working and the power transistor is also off the eclipse. On Friday I will still order another coil pack but it's doing the same thing regardless with what coil pack or power transistor I put on.

I did notice a small amount of oil where the CAS is and looks like maybe that is leaking. I will get a pic of that today.

Also the injectors never went off either like last time, or maybe it's because I wasn't driving.

I will get those switched over and wiggle the connector and see if the misfire dosnt go away.

The isc you were wanting me to out on the captured value, I couldn't find. Dose the v3lite not have it maybe?

These are old pics I took awhile ago and will take a new one later. The one with ecm chip is the one in talon and that is a spare one thay came with the car & I know nothing about it.

Talon ecu is red chip with ecm link

If you look tho the 4 teal things on the top right side is of the talons ecu compared to the other one it looks like they are bubling or has issues. The black cap on the talons ecu in the bottom left hand side also seems to be bubbling at the top.

I will definitely pull out the ecu and take another Pic of it.

 

[19Eclipse90]

The second one with “0885E” on the white connector is a non-turbo EPROM ECU.

Basically useless to you in regards to running your Talon, as it is.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Thank you for letting me know.

 

[We're on Boost]

Also the injectors never went off either like last time, or maybe it's because I wasn't driving.

The injectors never turned off because your idle speed was low enough and the Coasting FC was high enough that you didn't trigger the Coasting Fuel Cut. That much of it looks good now. But yeah it will still be interesting to see how that goes during a drive.

The isc you were wanting me to out on the captured value, I couldn't find. Dose the v3lite not have it maybe?

I don't know, that could be. I just looked at the V3 vs V3Lite Product Comparison page and they don't mention anything about ISC anywhere on the page. And that page is all I know about V3Lite.

If you look tho the 4 teal things on the top right side is of the talons ecu compared to the other one it looks like they are bubling or has issues. The black cap on the talons ecu in the bottom left hand side also seems to be bubbling at the top.

Well, I see what you are talking about but I don't know if it's bad or not. I'm not very good at visual checks on the ecu innards.
But the ecu could have some problems, and it could be why the misfire is happening, I just don't know how to tell.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Tomorow it is supposed to be °50 so I will pull the ecu and take a look. and will also post it in the ecu section

Would it be OK to put the non turbo ecu in to see if it still misfires.

I wouldn't drive it & if i did it would be down the street and i wouls not go into any boost at all, it would strictly be to see if the ecu is the culprit

 

[19Eclipse90]

You should be able to try it, just understand that this is solely for test purposes. If it does start, it is unlikely that it will run well or for very long (not that it should be ran for very long, anyway). And it may not be long enough to reach conditions that it would throw a code for a misfire in the case it isn’t an ECU issue.

Will N/T ecu work in turbo car just to test out ECU?

 

[awdtsi_90]

Thank you for that!!! I will just not put it in to be safe. Not trying to have anything else happens because of it. I will grab a pic of the ecu when I pull it out tomorrow. The pic o have already is when I first got thr car back and wasn't driving it so it should be a good comparison to see if things have changed on the board

 

[We're on Boost]

You should be able to try it, just understand that this is solely for test purposes. If it does start, it is unlikely that it will run well or for very long (not that it should be ran for very long, anyway). And it may not be long enough to reach conditions that it would throw a code for a misfire in the case it isn’t an ECU issue.

Will N/T ecu work in turbo car just to test out ECU?

In that thread, it sounds to me like Steve is saying it will run way too rich. I guess that would be because the non-turbo only has 240cc injectors, so the ecu is going to be assuming you've got 240cc injectors but really you have 450cc's so you'll have way too much fuel going.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Here is pics of the board, pretty sure this board has some issues.

 

[awdtsi_90]

I emailed and sent a email to ecm tuning and they asked for pics and my last log which I sent them these pics and the last log I made.

One of the big capacitors in the middle has a brown color at the bottom which I believe is leaking but we will see what they say.

I will let you guys know what they say.

I am thinking a few things are wrong on the board tho.

what about you guys?

I also saw some oil on the bottom side of the cas where the wires are. I'll take a pic of it tomorrow also.

 

[We're on Boost]

One of the big capacitors in the middle has a brown color at the bottom which I believe is leaking but we will see what they say.

I will let you guys know what they say.

I am thinking a few things are wrong on the board tho.

what about you guys?

Good pics you posted but, I really don't know! The conformal coating that covers the whole board is more bumpy and scabby looking than most I've seen. But as far as corroded traces or leaky electrolyte I can't tell. Your pic 2nd from the bottom shows an area around where it says "TR6" on the board and that area looks gnarly and scabby. But I don't know if it's bad or OK. I'm glad you contacted ECMtuning.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Put the ecu from eclipse in the talon and still misfiring.

What else could this be?

The cas maybe. what would throw the ignition circuit malfunction code.

I am buying new plugs and wires again just to rule those out again as they are less then a year old, but hopefully I'll get them in before this weekend.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Here is pic of ecu in eclipse i put in talon to rule out the ecu before I sent it in.

Also here is the CAS on the talon.

 

[We're on Boost]

Put the ecu from eclipse in the talon and still misfiring.

Good idea! I don't know why I didn't think of that .

Here is pic of ecu in eclipse i put in talon to rule out the ecu before I sent it in.

That ecu looks a lot cleaner and nicer than the one in the Talon. Looks good.

What else could this be?

The cas maybe. what would throw the ignition circuit malfunction code.

Well, here are the codes that are supposed to tell you if you have a bad CAS. Codes 22 and 23. Together with code 44, those 3 codes are the only ones I see on the DTC list that would help you with the ignition system.
Codes 22 and 23:

Have you taken a good look yet at the electrical connector that goes onto the power transistor? And the one that goes onto the coil pack? I think there's a good chance it's one of those. I know it's scary to put your arm down there to push on the PTU connector while the engine is running. Don't do it if you have the timing belt cover off. Maybe you can rig up a wood 1x2 or something to stick down in there for a slight push, you don't want to push on it very hard.

Also here is the CAS on the talon.

I doubt that it's the CAS because I don't know why it would cause a misfire just under that one condition of blipping the throttle. But I've never had to test my CAS and I don't know how to test it. When it comes to testing it for an intermittent failure like that, what we should have is some kind of loggable Raw value from the CAS that would show us interruptions of CAS signal flow but I don't think we have that.

I will say that when ER built my engine, they put a new CAS on it. I don't think they even bothered to "test" the old one (which was working). They probably just figured, hey we just built this whole new engine, not going to put a 25 year old CAS on it. So they put a new one on.
But it's not an OEM CAS. They were probably already not available. I never asked them what brand and part number they put on. And it's not even on the invoice. Pretty funny. I don't even know how much I paid for it or if I paid anything for it. So I have no info from them what exactly it is.
But the labeling on it is enough to figure that it's a Dorman 689-304. And it says "Made in Taiwan". And it's been working perfectly as far as I can tell, for 9 years now.

Unfortunately you can't get a Dorman 689-304 anymore.

But whoever was making it in Taiwan is probably still making them and just selling them to a different parts brand. It was a new part, not a reman.
I'm suspecting that it is now sold by CarDone as their part number 84S4403 which Rock Auto sells for $145 right now. It is new, not the reman one (which they also have).
It looks on the outside exactly like the one on my car. I know it does because I bought one in 2021 just to have a spare lying around the house. So I looked at the CarDone CAS that I have in the house, looking for what country it's made in, and it doesn't say! What?!

But I could pretty much figure it out from the currency charts - USD to TWD.
On Dec 26, 2021 when I bought the Cardone CAS I paid $172 and one USD was worth 27.7 TWD at that time.
172 x 27.7 = 4,764 TWD.
Right now Jan 28 2025 you can buy the Cardone CAS for $145 and one USD is worth 33 TWD.
145 x 33 = 4,785 TWD.

Wow that checks out. Price in TWD is less than 1% different from what it was 3 years ago. When I go through this same bunch of stuff in JPY it comes out way off. I doubt that you could find any other currency where it comes out this close.
So I think the Cardone CAS is probably made in Taiwan and the actual manufacturer is probably the same one that made the Dorman CAS.

 

[We're on Boost]

@awdtsi_90
The log you posted in post 206 and the video you posted in post 207 don't seem to be from the same time, so I can't sync them together.
Could you log a run while making it do a few misfires and shoot video at the same time, with the cam pointed just at the logger screen?

Hold the phone horizontally so we get a wide view. Then we can see everything on the logger screen, especially the seconds in the lower right corner, but the whole laptop screen we should see.
Then post the log and the video.

I'm thinking that if the CAS was really causing the misfire, and we knew exactly where to look in the log, we might see something like the RPM going wonky just for an instant or something like that.
If we can see the logger screen in the video we'll be able to syn up the video with the log.

 

[awdtsi_90]

yes, i will make another log and have the screen pointed at the log to show the entire process. Thank you also for helping and supporting me with knowledge and your time to help me get this issue resolved!!!