My old highschool car

[awdtsi_90]

Yes, there is a 190 thermostat in the car. Also the radiator fans are not coming on, i am hoping it is just a fan switch at the bottom of the radiator. Just running out of funds .

I dont want to hack up this MAF, It is to nice! , so if need be i will just have to stay out of it and just drive it with some small boost and not actually floor it . In time i will be putting the GM Maf back in it when I upgrade to full v3, install the 1,000cc injectors, walbrol 255 fuel pump then the FMIC.

I will get make those changes that you recommend thank you. If octane is available to be displayed i will get that added.

I dont have a wideband which I know is definitely needed. Unfortunately it will have to wait untill spring time, I have to pull off the downpipe and get a bung welded on to install the sensor and also buy the gauge which i dont know how to install but will read on it. I do have a 3 gauge pod ready for it tho . Daily driving is what this car is and will be for awhile with me. I will be gentle with the car to keep it safe untill i can get the wideband.

I will switch out the thermostat here soon. I do have a gift card from the wife for autozone and it has like 69 dollars left on it. That will get me a cooler thermostate and i will get that switched over on saturday. Its calling for 60 degrees on saturday while the high for today is 38. Started the car this morning in 24 degrees and it was just fine. It still takes a decent amount of time for my heater to work. It dosnt work as good as i would like but maybe another flush of the heater core is needed. It melted all the frost off the windshield after 10 minutes of driving, i had warm air but not hot. Better then it was and i will keep working on it to make this car an amazing daily for now and then weekend warrior down the road.

 

[We're on Boost]

Sounds like a pretty good plan!

 

[awdtsi_90]

Just curious, if I unplug the radiator fans switch at bottom of the radiator and put a jumper wire in there, would that turn the fans on to verify they work and it's just thr switch. I don't have a volt meter so can't check that part of it.

 

[We're on Boost]

Just curious, if I unplug the radiator fans switch at bottom of the radiator and put a jumper wire in there, would that turn the fans on to verify they work and it's just thr switch. I don't have a volt meter so can't check that part of it.

Yep, you can put a jumper wire or even a paper clip (which is what it shows in the Haynes manual on page 3-3) across the 2 connectors in that plug. If the fan still doesn't come on, then it might be the relay that's bad, and you can jumper that too. That's also shown, sort of, on the same page. The FSM must show this too, I haven't looked.
I don't even remember anymore what this plug looked like but this page in my Haynes is so smudged up with oily finger prints, we must have done this at one time .
If it turns out your main cooling fan is bad, never fear, I still have the one I bought new from Mitsubishi in awesomely un-mangled condition and it probably only has 2 or 3 thousand miles on it, new motor, blades, and shroud.

 

[We're on Boost]

If you want to try jumpering the socket where the relay goes, you'd need to be careful to jumper the correct 2 positions in the socket.
Because if you jumper the wrong ones, I think it will blow a fuse in the circuit that comes from the ignition switch.
The correct ones to jumper are the ones labeled 1 and 3 on this diagram, where it shows the "Radiator Fan Motor Relay".
If you jumpered 2 and 4, I think it would blow a fuse in the circuit to the ignition switch.
I don't know at the moment what this looks like on the car (to get the correct ones).
So if you wanted to do this, probably should come back in here and we can look at it some more, or get somebody who knows.
If you jumper 1 and 3, it should run the fan even with no jumper on the thermosensor plug.
And it will run with the key off. It won't stop until you pull the jumper out.

I don't see this relay jumpering (above) as a test in the FSM.
They show testing the fan motor by connecting wires from a battery directly to two of the terminals on the wires that come from the fan motor, and it shows which two:

And they show testing the relay after you pull it out of the car by connecting a battery to the coil part of it and then checking the switch part of it for continuity:

 

[We're on Boost]

After looking up some pics of unhacked MAFs last night, I realize that my MAF actually did have 2 mild hacks and I never even knew it.
The 2 things are:
1.) The honeycomb that is normally in front of the oval shaped tunnel has been removed.
2.) The "silencer" thing that looks like a big Christmas Tree star ornament has been removed. You can see a pic of that thing in a "Free Mods" article that @19Eclipse90 did, here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/common-horsepower-upgrades-90-94-4g63t-dsm.476796/#post-153409087

We have some good recent photos of an unhacked 1g MAF (taken out of the metal can) that was for sale by @jersygsx, here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/marketplace/1g-turbo-maf-unhacked.7895/
In his photos you get a good look at both honeycombs. There's no shot of the "silencer" thing.

Then, in a recent thread where some guys are talking about MAFs hacked or unhacked, there is an interesting comment by pauleyman where he says "Removing the lower honeycomb and that's it, is not a hacked maf. Neither is cutting the can. Hacked usually means cutting off the entire lower bypass section. Exposed (K&N air filter) is not a problem." Post #27 here: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-cranks-but-wont-start.547661/page-2#post-153928721

Here's a shot I took of my MAF just before sending it to you, where you can see inside well enough to see that the one honeycomb and the silencer thing have been removed:

From how it worked on my car, I'd say it worked fine.
In your car, the 2 removals should allow a little more airflow. Better for extending its operating range. But that would also make the engine run a little lean because it's letting in a bit more air per Hz. So we need better AFR info.

 

[We're on Boost]

Even with no wideband, we could begin to check on your AFRs by looking at your fuel trims in closed loop. But you don't have any closed loop! It's always in open loop. Closed loop should work if the O2 sensor is working. Your recent logs all show a flatlined 0.2 volts on the FrontO2. Which can't be right. Your logs in September were flatlined at 0.8 volts.

FrontO2 of 0.2 and 0.8 volts are like what you get when you have narrow band simulation turned on.
In September you did have that turned on.

I looked at your RawFrO2Volts and it is showing numbers that vary from 1 to about 45 raw. From what I see on my car, that seems like the right (normal) range of numbers.

So I think your O2 sensor is actually working but you somehow still have Narrowband O2 Simulation turned on even though it looks grayed out in the NBO2 sim tab.

I think if you can uncheck that box that says "enable narrowband simulation" it might clear this up. Then maybe you'll get closed loop.
For reference, on my car, when I look at RawFrO2Volts numbers, I get numbers like this:
Front O2 is 0.82 volts when RawFrO2Volts is 42 raw
Front O2 is 0.76 volts when RawFrO2Volts is 39 raw
Front O2 is 0.53 volts when RawFrO2Volts is 27 raw
Front O2 is 0.02 volts when RawFrO2Volts is 1 raw

 

[awdtsi_90]

Awdome, I will be testing that this weekend. Havnt had a chance to do those timing adjustments, have been getting everything ready for pur 10 year old turning 11 on sat. Got a party were doing after her first basketball game!!I won't be jumping the relay but I do have one in th4 eclipse I know works I could test also if jumping the fan switch dosnt turn them on.I hope the fans arnt bad because I am not sure the stock fans fit with my turbo. I think that's why I had to get the slim fans back in the days I just don't rember because it was over 10 years ago .Thr fan switch looks pretty gnarly so i am hoping that is the culprit.Last night I got the Christmas tree put up tho and got the Christmas spirit going haha. Thank you very much again!

 

[awdtsi_90]

I ment to send that before the weekend. I will see if I can't get that unchecked and maybe that will clear it up. I never had chance to get anything done with thr birthday party then having 6 stay for the overnight birthday party. They were loud & made a mess but had fun. Our little girl loved having that many friends stay the night. Me & the wife are glads it's over and enjoying thr quite before starting the week again .

 

[We're on Boost]

Awdome, I will be testing that this weekend. Havnt had a chance to do those timing adjustments, have been getting everything ready for pur 10 year old turning 11 on sat. Got a party were doing after her first basketball game!!I won't be jumping the relay but I do have one in th4 eclipse I know works I could test also if jumping the fan switch dosnt turn them on.I hope the fans arnt bad because I am not sure the stock fans fit with my turbo. I think that's why I had to get the slim fans back in the days I just don't rember because it was over 10 years ago .Thr fan switch looks pretty gnarly so i am hoping that is the culprit.Last night I got the Christmas tree put up tho and got the Christmas spirit going haha. Thank you very much again!

Oh yeah if you have slim fans in there now, the stock ones probably would not fit.
Glad you are having fun with the kids!

I ment to send that before the weekend. I will see if I can't get that unchecked and maybe that will clear it up. I never had chance to get anything done with thr birthday party then having 6 stay for the overnight birthday party. They were loud & made a mess but had fun. Our little girl loved having that many friends stay the night. Me & the wife are glads it's over and enjoying thr quite before starting the week again .

I think to get the "enable narrowband simulation" to light up so you can uncheck it, you might have to first temporarily re-enable it by assigning a wideband input pin. Then take it all back down starting from the "NBO2 sim" page. That's my guess. Or maybe there won't be any problem doing it when you are "Connected".
I don't get enough of the "loud and made a mess" with my grandchildren because they live so far away. So I have to supplement with lots of YouTube. And that has the advantage of being able to turn it on or off whenever I want, and no clean up afterwards.
But there is nothing better than "throwing bunnies up and down the stairs" with my 4 year old granddaughter, with the 1 year old granddaughter getting into it, and the 2 big dogs Bowser and Pixel getting into it too with their dog toys.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Ya kids are awsome. We have a 11 year old & 17 year old

How far away do they live from you? Thankfully most of our family lives here.

 

[We're on Boost]

Ya kids are awsome. We have a 11 year old & 17 year old

How far away do they live from you? Thankfully most of our family lives here.

They live about 1500 miles away. They are closer to you than they are to me!

 

[awdtsi_90]

I have tried to disable the narrowband
simulation and I can't get it to uncheck.

I did change this to accommodate the maf being hacked. Was this correct in changing the template to hacked?

Should I keep that box disabled because I do t have speed density which is that SD means I am assuming.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Got the fans working by jumping the connector, which means the radiator fan switch is bad. Will get one of those ordered after Christmas. I am glad they work and it's just a bed sensor

 

[We're on Boost]

I did change this to accommodate the maf being hacked. Was this correct in changing the template to hacked?

Yes that template is the right idea. Seems to me it isn't up as much as I'd expect, but it's the right idea.
In your shot of it though you aren't actually using it yet. You have to pick the "use template" button. Then the yellow dots will go up to the white dots, then you "copy to ecu" then you'll be using it. It will make things a little richer across the board, but especially at lower loads and idle.
At mid and higher loads it's only increasing by 1.6%. I don't know why so small, seems like it should be more. Would be something to keep in mind for future. But the 9.4% at idle, that should make a noticeable difference.

Should I keep that box disabled because I do t have speed density which is that SD means I am assuming.

I think you should uncheck that box. But it's vague in the ? help. Maybe it won't make a difference. But I think it can't hurt to uncheck it, so I'd uncheck it. Because for sure we want to be using MAF Compensation.

I have tried to disable the narrowband
simulation and I can't get it to uncheck.

Darn it. I was thinking you should start out on the ECU Inputs page where you would put Front O2 back into the WB field and save it "copy to ecu", like this:

Then go back to the NBO2 sim page and hopefully it will be lit up there now.
Then uncheck it on the NBO2 sim page, and "copy to ecu".
Then go back to the ECU Inputs page and put the WB field back to "Undefined" and "copy to ecu".

 

[awdtsi_90]

Ok, I will work on it tomorrow and get those dots moved up then try and get that box unchecked.

 

[awdtsi_90]

ok guys, i got the 02 simmulation switched over when i got home today but before i did that, omw to work this morning the check engine light came on. On my way home it started to shake a little bit so when i got home i checked the dtc and it came up as 02 sensor. I put a full tank of gas in with fuel injector cleaner, and it is still kina shaking a little bit. not at all times but it is kinda seeming like a ignition or fuel issue. Idk what it is and took a log omw to the gas station, then also a 2nd log omw back from the gas station in hopes as a guide to what it is.

The talon isnt running as good as it was the last time i drove it and i did nothing since then. It drove fine to work and half way the light came on but ran fine and had no issue. When i went to leave work the check engine light is still on and kinda ran like shit a little.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. It seems to be a fuel or igntion coil pack issue maybe? I dont have a gas gauge and put 160 miles on the tank it had. The car took $26 of premium so i dont think it was close to running out but could of been and sucked something up in the line?

The first log is omw to gas station and the 2nd log is omw back

P.s. Hope everyone had a good Christmas!

 

[awdtsi_90]

The o2 sensor seems to be working with the voltage on the logs i believe so,
It is a new sensor with less then 500 miles on it.

Also the idle is high but I have the target idle set at 800 rpm .

When I push in the clutch from driving, it idles down & wants to die & almost dose but the car always catches itself and dosnt die.

 

[We're on Boost]

The o2 sensor seems to be working with the voltage on the logs i believe so,
It is a new sensor with less then 500 miles on it.

I looked mostly at the 2nd log. Yes I think the O2 sensor is working. And I see you got narrow band simulation turned off for real, good.
And I see you applied the template values for a hacked 1g MAF, good.
What I see wrong in the log is:
The InjOn time goes to 0 about every 3 seconds when you are at idle.
And it is just running too lean almost all the time.

For why the InjOn time is going to 0 during idle, I think it might be the Coasting Fuel Cut. The fuel cut you are getting is happening when your idle gets up to about 1400 rpm. I see you have 0 in the blank for Coasting FC Offset on the RPM/TPS page. Try setting that to 1000 instead of 0. Seems like a lot but it doesn't hurt anything.

The too lean problem - You can tell that from the O2 voltage which is near zero almost all the time.
And you can tell that from the Combined fuel trim which is consistently a large positive number. It's going to about +17% most of the time in closed loop. Closed loop is trying to add a lot of fuel. It thinks the engine is running too lean. That's good that we can see the fuel trim, it helps. Yay for the O2 sensor.
When you are cruising or lightly accelerating in closed loop, the O2 should be cycling up and down, not just laying there near 0.
When you are accelerating hard enough to go into open loop, then the O2 voltage should stay up around 0.8 volts and not cycle, should just stay high. But yours only stays high in a couple spots early in the log, around 98 sec and 109 sec. Later in the log when you get on the gas the O2 voltage is staying near 0.
At idle also it is staying near 0.
So it's running too lean most of the time.

For the most part the O2 only picks up when you lift off the throttle. It goes rich for about a second just like you would see with an old carburetor car, or with a turbo car when the blow off valve vents to atmosphere. And in one of your pics it looks like the HKS valve does go to atmosphere.
But I don't think that's so much the problem. I think mainly the problems are it is too lean almost everywhere, and you have that fuel cut during idle.

I think that the little bit of MAF comp that is done by the template for hacked MAF is not enough.
The MAF comp needs to be a lot more.
I think it probably needs the thing on the MAF Comp page that is called Global Scalar. But I have never used it and don't know how to use it. I read the ? help sections called "Global Scalar" and "Change" and to me they read like alphabet soup. I tried using it to give it a plus 10% and all the sliders went down instead of up. So I think somebody who knows how to use it could help out here, and there must be some threads and some videos that show how to make sense of it. Or maybe a wiki. Anyway, I think a Global Scalar upward is a good thing to try.

Another way to make it richer everywhere might be if you could give Global Fuel positive values across the board. I don't even know if you can do that. The up and down arrows on the field will only give you minus numbers. But the sliders will go up. So I don't know if this is even a thing.
I think, try fiddling with the Coasting FC Offset number first and see what happens.

Oh wait, you also have the runaway idle speed problem that happens from too much timing in the stock ignition map when you are at low loads and low rpms like around idle. This is something you should change anyway, because your timing was going up to 20 degrees when you were trying to idle.
So for your max octane and min octane maps, change the timing in that area to something like this:

 

[We're on Boost]

I tried using it to give it a plus 10% and all the sliders went down instead of up.

I don't know why but it seems to do the right thing if you put a minus number into it instead of a + number.
So like this on the MAF Comp page:
Don't put a number into the "Global Scalar" field. Instead, pick the "Change" button first.
Then it gives you a little popup. Use the down arrow on "New global scalar" to put in -10.2.
Pick OK.
Then Bam, it gives you this:

Then "Copy to ECU"

I think I would not use the button in the Change popup that says "Auto Adj" which sort of normalizes the numbers around "0".
If it's normalized I think you lose the visual sense of where you are at versus where you were before. So I would not do that unless it turns out later at some point that it's a good idea for some reason.

You'll have to be careful to note that your injectors will run out of duty cycle a little earlier in the rev range with making it richer like this.
I think you are being careful about that already, so good.
So if you make this change, let's look over the driving results in a log to make sure that it really has gotten richer through the whole range of operation.

Then as soon as you feel like spending the time to fool around with it some more, you should put in the bigger injectors you have. The stock fuel pump will still run out at about the same place your injectors are running out now, so that should follow soon after or at the same time, and a good regulator like a Fuelab 515 series, if there isn't one in there already.

 

[awdtsi_90]

Unfourtantly I have been busy but for sure this spring will get the bigger injectors & fuel pump in. Also the FMIC as it is in the garage also.

Right now the main issue for me is trying to resolve the misire/ fuel issue. This problem just spawned up after the check engine light came on for thr o2 sensor. It runs and drives but seems like its misfiring or a fuel issue at times.

I replaced the 4 sparkplug wires and it didn't help at all. Could it be the CAS or a ignition coil pack on its way out? Maybe a IAC sensor?

 

[awdtsi_90]

Made those adjustments, and it seemed to help. On this log from 260 - 335 the idlesittin in traffic and it's hovering around 1800rpm. There is still a shudder at times but not always there.
Could an air leak cause the idle issue or maybe the IAC getting ready to go out.

Could it really just be a tunning issue and got out of whack from something going bad or an air leak and the computer trying to compensate for it?

I didn't make the max octane timing adjustments because i am scared and don't know what to turn it to and how many columns . Here is the log I made after those adjustments tho.

 

[awdtsi_90]

I did a pretend adjustment. is this ok. Idk what it's doing. When it goes blue it's safer & less aggressive right?

The 2nd Pic is a stock 1g dsm map from ecmlink.

 

[We're on Boost]

Oops, ISC Position isn't logging. You'll have to turn it on with "Captured values". Need to see that.

After 210 sec it is starting to do those little half second fuel cuts at 1400 rpm again (InjOn goes to 0). Maybe that is the misfire or shudder you are talking about. I thought the high coasting fuel cut number would fix that but it didn't.

Go ahead and make the timing changes in both min and max octane tables. Just put the same numbers in that I showed in post #194. That pic is right from my car, those are the numbers I use there to keep the idle more stable. Just change those 21 cells in each map. Yes blue is like the "safest" color and green is the next safest. There is a wiki that talks about doing that, and it also talks about other things that cause idle surge, like you mentioned air leaks, the throttle body, and the ISC, here: https://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/idlesurge
I think the only reason the stock timing is so advanced (high) in that part of the map is because the emissions and fuel economy will be just slightly better. The trouble with the stock numbers for us is like how it's explained near the bottom of the idlesurge wiki page.

I see the MAF Comp numbers are still really low. So go ahead and use the Change button on that page to put in -10.2 to raise that whole curve.
Get ISC Position logging.
And do those 21 timing cells on the min and the max octane maps.

I've forgotten, do you have a FIAV (fast idle air valve) on the car still?

 

[pauleyman]

Made those adjustments, and it seemed to help. On this log from 260 - 335 the idlesittin in traffic and it's hovering around 1800rpm. There is still a shudder at times but not always there.
Could an air leak cause the idle issue or maybe the IAC getting ready to go out.

Could it really just be a tunning issue and got out of whack from something going bad or an air leak and the computer trying to compensate for it?

I didn't make the max octane timing adjustments because i am scared and don't know what to turn it to and how many columns . Here is the log I made after those adjustments tho.

It's not possible to idle above 1500 if throttle is actually closed. You mentioned cuts at 1400rpm. Betting it's 1500 and what you're describing is idle surge. Log idle position switch. Anytime you're off gas it should be on. At idle if rpm goes up ( leaks etc) rpm hits 1500 but switch is closed ecu cuts fuel. Idle drops and fuel come back on, cycle repeats.