My 6 bolt swap issues

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Do you have lots of lifter tick?

Definitely sounds like it.

 

[mikelv]

Sorry if I've been a bit confusing on this, but yes mikelv, you're right.

I haven't tested the sending unit on the aftermarket gauge yet to see if in fact it doesn't work. I didn't have anyone else home yesterday to help me test, but I was going to depress the pinhole in the sending unit with the power on to see if the needle moves. That should tell me if the sending unit is in order. Personally, I think the reason it wasn't reading was because of the location of it in the old oil filter housing. You see I found out that the port I was using in the back of the housing apparently did not see much oil pressure. Other ports on the front had much better oil pressure. I found this out by cranking over the motor a few times and removing the plug from each port and seeing how much oil comes out. The rear port where I originally had the sending unit barely dribbled, where the front ports pretty much poured out.

I'm not sure what year this oil filter housing is from, but it is used and for a 6 bolt. There are a total of 4 ports on this one. One in the front is the standard size and has the dummy light sensor installed. The other two ports in the front are plugged, but the hole sizes are about 2x as big as the standard size where the OEM stuff plugs in. There is also one facing down towards the back that is the same size. Those last three are obviously plugged. I will post up some pictures today when I get home from work and try to find out what year/make/model it came from.

And yes it seems as though the bottom half of the motor is getting oil as I've seen it pour out the oil filter housing. My concern is that the cylinder head is getting lubrication. I just got the head rebuilt and cleaned, so I'd like to not break it if possible.

If anything, for now I'd like to pop the valve cover off and just see if I can crank the motor and get any oil in the cylinder head. Does it take time while the motor is idling for oil to get up to the cylinder head? If that's the case, maybe I can put some more assembly lube on the valvetrain and pour some oil over it to get it started?

You're not going to have huge crankcase pressure at idle, and DSM's don't generate a lot of oil pressure at idel, but buy all means yes, oil should get up there right away. It would be easier to see the car but it's hard to tell without any pressure gauge readings.

Post those pictures of the OFH. I'm curious to see what you have but I do believe the sending units (OEM) are different from 6 bolt than a 7 bolt. I'm not sure because I've had a aftermarket gauge ever since I did the swap.

Someone confirm the OEM pressure sending unit differences on the 1G/2G 6 & 7 bolt motors please.

Either way there should be some sort of fitting on that housing for an aftermarket sending unit. If you don't have a SS line yet, that's ok, it won't fail on you as soon as you crank it so that should be enough to let you know accurate oil pressure. If and when you get a working oil pressure gauge on there, you'll be able to know better.

Also, let's try and dig up some advice and references on oil pump testing, because it sounds like that's direction we're headed. I'll do some more referencing for you when I get out of work too.

 

[donniekak]

Is the pickup tube on the oil pump? If your car has ran for a total of several minutes and no oil is in the head you may have some major issues.

 

[mikelv]

Is the pickup tube on the oil pump? If your car has ran for a total of several minutes and no oil is in the head you may have some major issues.

That's a good question man, kinda took that for granted.

 

[16g-2ndgen]

Take our advice, and drop the pan and inspect the pickup... do not sart it anymore! By the sounds of it you are not building oil pressure

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

I'm 99% confident that the oil pickup is attached to the pump. But I mean I have ARP rod bolts, so I had to drill out the oil pickup a bit. Perhaps it didn't seal well between the pickup and the pump?

Anyway, I snapped some pics of the oil filter housing and the cylinder head with the VC off. It looks like some oil got in there. There are small pools around the head bolts and in between the cylinders where the spark plugs go. The pics aren't fantastic, but you can definitely see some oil in there.

Also, with the VC off, I unplugged spark and fuel again and cranked over the motor in hopes of seeing it come up in the motor, but I don't think that built enough pressure to get it up there, so nothing came out.

Here are pics of the head without the VC:

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Pics of the oil filter housing. You can see the plugged ports. Two plugged in the front, one on the bottom.

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The ones that are plugged are like twice as big as the size of the threaded part of the sending unit...both the aftermarket and OEM one. Should I just remove the dummy light sensor and use that port for an oil pressure sensor?

Oh, and before I forget, I tested out the oil pressure sending unit by sticking a pin in an pushing it in with the gauge on. It didn't budge, so I'm assuming the sending unit is bad??

 

[blcknspo0ln]

oh man Jeff, I told you to spin the damn thing before putting the motor in! Oh and just to contribute some advice, if the engine has not been primed correctly, it will sometimes take 30-60 seconds for the oil to start coming out of the head ports. by all means, though, DO NOT start the engine again. I'll check tomorrow in my parts bin to see if I have an extra 6 bolt OFH. I'm pretty sure I do, but I don't think that's your issue. The thread for the oil ports on the OFH are 1/8BSP

Yes, take off the dummy light (the small mushroom looking one) and use that thread. Be careful one threading the sensor, the aftermarkets are 1/8NPT, but will fit in the thread just fine, just don't thread it in too much or you'll strip the hole.

I think it's time to pull the timing belt and hit the oil pump with an air gun, dude. Better safe than sorry.

 

[black_gst]

you can pump the oil in through that oil port where the sensor is on the OFH... this is how i primed my oil pump a week ago when i did my 6bolt swap. you can screw in the fitting thats on you IM that goes to you brake booster and get a fluid pump and just pump like 1/2-3/4 of a quart and you will be good to go!

 

[blcknspo0ln]

you can pump the oil in through that oil port where the sensor is on the OFH... this is how i primed my oil pump a week ago when i did my 6bolt swap. you can screw in the fitting thats on you IM that goes to you brake booster and get a fluid pump and just pump like 1/2-3/4 of a quart and you will be good to go!

Good call, reps for that.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...pump-timing-components-already-installed.html

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

you can pump the oil in through that oil port where the sensor is on the OFH... this is how i primed my oil pump a week ago when i did my 6bolt swap. you can screw in the fitting thats on you IM that goes to you brake booster and get a fluid pump and just pump like 1/2-3/4 of a quart and you will be good to go!

Yea, this was my next idea. I'd rather eliminate as much as possible before removing the t-belt. I mean it's not a big deal, just a pain in the ass while it's in the car! Unfortunately I won't have time this weekend as I'll be in AC for a wedding, but hopefully next week I'll get oil up there!

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

I still plan on priming the motor again today using the hand pump on the bottle of oil to get it to the cylinder head, but......

In the event I do decide or find out I need to replace the oil pump, I have two questions:

1) Can I just purchase the drive and driven gears and "rebuild" the oil pump instead of purchasing an entire new front case/oil pump assembly?
2) Is it possible (easy/moderate/hard) to replace the front case/oil pump while the motor is in the car? Can someone give a quick rundown of procedures?

Thanks guys!

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

So I followed the steps outlined here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...pump-timing-components-already-installed.html to prime the oil pump.

The hand pump I got from Advanced Auto was a huge piece of shit. The bottom part of it that goes in the bottle was like 3" long and everytime I attached a hose to it, it wouldn't suck enough to bring up oil. So I kept pouring oil into a cleaned out gatorade bottle since it was relatively short. Now the car has at least 4 qts of oil in it. I added probably about another 5 qts at least using this method and saw nothing in the head. Now I read this article on tuners (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...5904-resolved-10-quarts-oil-prime-engine.html) which leads me to believe I wasn't doing it fast enough and long enough to get it up through the head. However it also lead me to believe that if I disconnect the oil feed line and crank the motor, oil should shoot out and that means the oil pump is working correctly? I'm assuming this is having an oil feed line from the OFH. Mine is from the cylinder head.

Anywho, it got dark so I left it, but my plans are to drain the 10qts of oil that are in the car now and try this method again with a good 5 qts of oil and doing it really fast. Then if I still don't see oil in the head I'll crank it and see if it comes out the oil feed line.

...or should I just say #### it and remove the t-belt and spin it with a drill??

 

[black_gst]

Good call, reps for that.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...pump-timing-components-already-installed.html

sweet ive been waiting for some rep points. when do i get a star???


but honestly it worked great for me and i only pumped about 3/4 quart. when you are pumping it in pinch the lower side so it forces it through the pump and not back into the bottle i didnt see it comming out of the head either but once i put 3/4 of a quart in i made sure it came out of the oil feed line when i cranked it over and it did so i figured i was good to go! and i was

 

[black_gst]

I still plan on priming the motor again today using the hand pump on the bottle of oil to get it to the cylinder head, but......

In the event I do decide or find out I need to replace the oil pump, I have two questions:

1) Can I just purchase the drive and driven gears and "rebuild" the oil pump instead of purchasing an entire new front case/oil pump assembly?
2) Is it possible (easy/moderate/hard) to replace the front case/oil pump while the motor is in the car? Can someone give a quick rundown of procedures?

Thanks guys!

to answer these questions.
yes you can just buy the drive and driven gears and replace them. its very simple

i have never done the front case with the motor installed so i dont know how hard it wll be but i know it would be a PITA but then again what isnt a PITA on a DSM

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

sweet ive been waiting for some rep points. when do i get a star???


but honestly it worked great for me and i only pumped about 3/4 quart. when you are pumping it in pinch the lower side so it forces it through the pump and not back into the bottle i didnt see it comming out of the head either but once i put 3/4 of a quart in i made sure it came out of the oil feed line when i cranked it over and it did so i figured i was good to go! and i was

Well my oil feed is from the cylinder head since I"m running an FP3150 with a restricter/filter in the feed line. If I don't see oil coming through the head, do you think I'll get any from the oil feed when cranking?

Also, did you put in the standard 4.5 qts of oil and then pump in another 3/4 qt? I'm just trying to figure out how much oil I should have in there when I crank and check for pressure.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Oh, btw.......

This morning I walked outside to get in my car and go to work and there is oil ALL OVER the floor!! It soaked through the cardboard boxes I had under the car and the various rags and started seeping through the garage door. Yet I didn't see anywhere where it was leaking?? I also didn't see anything leaking last night. So I cleaned up as much as possible at 7AM before work and came back on my lunch. I drained the oil and only about 4 qts worth came out of the oil pan when I put in at least 5 qts yesterday. Something is not adding up here and I'm losing patience, time, and money....and a clean garage.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

Ok, nevermind that last post...I'm just retarded. I realized I left the hose connected to the oil filter housing and open. The 5 qts I pumped in last night just came back down in the morning. FAIL.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

So.. gonna undo the timing yet ?

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

So.. gonna undo the timing yet ?

Yea, I'm thinking of just tearing the front case off and rebuilding the oil pump. Feel like coming by one day?? We could make it a "tech day"

 

[black_gst]

how are thing going on this??? you may not see oil comming out of the head... i didnt but i just unhooked my oil feed line off the turbo and cranked the motor over and oil came out so i knew everything was good... and i did end up over filling my oil when i pumped in the oil so i just drained it out of the oil feed line for the turbo. it worked great for me

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

how are thing going on this??? you may not see oil comming out of the head... i didnt but i just unhooked my oil feed line off the turbo and cranked the motor over and oil came out so i knew everything was good... and i did end up over filling my oil when i pumped in the oil so i just drained it out of the oil feed line for the turbo. it worked great for me

Unfortunately my time to work on the car has been limited. But I drained all the oil out of the motor and picked up a fresh gallon. I furiously pumped in the entire gallon (5 quarts) through the OFH and hear air and such come out but nothing out of the head. And yes it's possible I'm building oil pressure and I could just open the oil feed to the turbo, but I'd really like to see oil in the head before I start the car up again. So my plan is to remove the timing belt and use an electric impact gun and spin until I see oil in the head. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

I was talking to a buddy of mine at work who has a 98 GSX he's rebuilding. He was telling me that he heard when you put a 7 bolt head on a 6 bolt block, you have to port out the oil passages to the head because otherwise the head will get starved of oil. So I searched the forums for threads on this and the only thing people say is to bore out the head stud holes to 12mm (from 11mm) to get the head to mate with the block on the head studs. Does anyone else have information on this? Perhaps this is why I'm not getting oil in the head.

Either way, I'm removing the tbelt and spinning the pump this week.

 

[black_gst]

theres no need to do any porting like that i have had a 6bolt head on a 7 bolt block with no problems. and if you have removed your balance shaft you normally have more oil pressure then you need!

hopefully someone else can chime in on this but oil does not need to reach the head. that is just an indicator the you have flooded the pump and oil filter.

for example... when you do an oil change there is no oil in the head and all you do is fill it up with oil and start the car up right?

but the pump is still flooded (full of oil) after you remove the filter and drain the oil. so really as long as there is oil in the pump, it will be fine


anyone else want to chime in and assure our friend here!

 

[TuRBoTaLooN]

anyone else want to chime in and assure our friend here!

I mean that makes perfect sense to me, but everyone has told me that when you prime the oil system you should see oil come out of the cylinder head. Therefore I don't feel comfortable that it is "primed" until I see oil coming out of the cylinder head. I'm nervous about the cams/rockers/springs not being lubricated while spinning. Albeit much easier to just start the car and assume I have oil flow, I'd rather take time and make sure I'm getting oil. But I'm open to suggestions.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

It's not so much the lubrication factor, but the fact that you're looking for 100% operation of the oil pump. To me, that's the only reason why anyone would want to prime the pump. Either way, I think you've got the right idea Jeff and just spin the damn thing and move on with your life.