MAJOR problem, no oil pressure after rebuild

[mysticfire6602]

ok, i just got the whole engine completly done and reconnected yesterday. today i disabled the spark and fuel to prime it up by cranking it, and the gauge reads 0, so i hook a mechanical guage, and it reads 0. what the heck did i do wrong!

 

[jesepes]

How long did you crank it? Did you put any oil in it? Did you do BS removal? Is oil pickup tube in place?
Good luck,

 

[mysticfire6602]

well i cranked it for about 15 seconds about 20 times. it has oil in it. balance shafts are in place. if you tell me more about the oil pickup tube i can tell you, because right now i cant remember a damn thing when i put my front cover back on

 

[GTM]

well i cranked it for about 15 seconds about 20 times. it has oil in it. balance shafts are in place. if you tell me more about the oil pickup tube i can tell you, because right now i cant remember a damn thing when i put my front cover back on

You need to stop cranking on this until you get oil in circulation.

Who did the bottom end and installed the oil pan. The pickup tube and screen bolt to the oil pump with a small gasket if you did not install this you will have no oil pressure. But you should have an extra piece left over along with the bolts.

You can buy a small eletric drill motor pump for $5-$10, you will need to buy a metric pipe nipple with hose barb. Remove the oil pressure sending unit, screw the nipple in and attach hose, you will need a quart or two of oil and prime the system. You should have done this before you installed the timing belt with a socket attached to the drill and spun up the pump to oil crank and cam areas.

At least this way you will have oil to everything and not be running the bearings dry while you crank. If you forgot the pickup, you will still need to prime the system, you can use the drill motor pump to suck out the extra oil or you can pull the drain plug and drain the extra oil out. Of course the pan will have to come off to get to anything related to the pump.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[mysticfire6602]

i did the complete engine rebuild. ok, when i put on the oil pickup, i did put on the gasket from my complete agsket set on it. and when i took off the oil pressure sending unit and cranked it, i also got no oil comming out of it, so for some reason the oil isnt even leaving the pan. wtf.

 

[GTM]

i did the complete engine rebuild. ok, when i put on the oil pickup, i did put on the gasket from my complete agsket set on it. and when i took off the oil pressure sending unit and cranked it, i also got no oil comming out of it, so for some reason the oil isnt even leaving the pan. wtf.

You have a choice, either the drill motor pump or pull the timing cover and belt off and prime using the socket attached to the drill. You can help it along by filling the oil filter but you just can't keep cranking on this without some oil. This is not common but something isn't right. There is an overpressure bypass on the pump and probably another on the oil filter mount. If these are jammed wide open it could explain no oil pressure, you are just going to have to get involved.

Keep us posted, ask questions but we need more info if we are to help.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[mysticfire6602]

thanks everyone for the quick replies, hopefully i can fix it tomorrow at vo tech. ok, i always fill my oil filters when i install them, always. where would these bypasses be? would i have to take off all those damn belts and pulleys to get to it, i really hated putting them on, and that was when the engine was out of the car...

 

[mysticfire6602]

ok, i checked the oil pickup at vo tech, and it has the right gasket on it, so thats not the problem, and when i was in all data, it said something about the 2 gears on the oil pump have to be in time, and when i reassembled the oil pump i never saw any timing marks. could this be the problem? or is all data just refering to the oil pump gear the goes to the timing belt? more help would be appreciated

edit: if for some reason i cant fix it would someone wanna buy it? it has a completly rebuilt engine

 

[GTM]

...
when i was in all data, it said something about the 2 gears on the oil pump have to be in time, and when i reassembled the oil pump i never saw any timing marks. could this be the problem? or is all data just refering to the oil pump gear the goes to the timing belt? more help would be appreciated

edit: if for some reason i cant fix it would someone wanna buy it? it has a completly rebuilt engine

I've never heard of anything suggesting the oil pump has to be indexed with the balance shaft drive gear whether it's been removed or not. I don't have a cutaway or picture so I don't know how the pressure from the pump enters the block. The drawing I have shows the relief valve before the oil switch and oil filter.

I've not been into the bottom end so can't be specific, if you pull the filter mount and put compressed air to the feed from the pump you should have a lot of resistance but eventually it should bubble in the oil if everything is sealed. Pressure to the mount should feed to the outside of the filter element and through the spin-on filter adapter threads unless this is where the overpressure dump intercepts the flow and return to the pan.

I am sure it is possible to force either the pump or shaft so they don't mesh but then none of the bolts would draw up tight for the pump or sprocket bearing mount unless you sheared the teeth off one of those gears. If you can't put pressure (oil or air) it seems you have little choice but to pull the pan and the pump to see what's wrong. It could also mean the front cover will have to come off and the stub balance shaft removed. It's just nuts and bolts and a PIA to have something like this go upside down but you must make some decision.

If you used a good quality assembly lube for all the motive parts then there should be minimal if any damage from all the cranking so a simple repair could put an end to this nightmare and well worth the effort. Granted it could be a weekend out of your life but it's better than taking a bath on your investment.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[jesepes]

I believe the oil pump has to be "timed" correctly because it runs the rear balance shaft, and the balance shaft has to be timed correctly. It has to work with the front shaft and crank/rotating assy. It is even in my Haynes Manual.

mysticfire, you are correct, the gears have to be in time if your balance shafts are in (which they are.)

Did you disassemble the oil pump? If not, then you don't need to worry about this. If the oil pump was never apart, then the only timing you have to worry about is with the oil pump-to-timing belt sprocket being in time. (Assuming you also timed the front BS belt and the cams, obviously.)
Here is a pic of where oil bypass is It's on the right side and is screwed in. You can take yours out to examine it. I can't say for sure, but be careful there may be a spring in there. Take it out, have a look, add oil to there if it makes you happy, or crank motor with this out and see if anything comes out. Pump may need primed.
I hope this helps!

 

[Fattie92]

assuming that the oil pump sprocket isnt lined up right.. you would still have oil circulation. Is your pickup bent? or oil pan dented? If the pick up is to close to the pan, then it wont have the clearance to suck in the oil.

 

[GTM]

I believe the oil pump has to be "timed" correctly because it runs the rear balance shaft, and the balance shaft has to be timed correctly. It has to work with the front shaft and crank/rotating assy. It is even in my Haynes Manual.

I don't understand why you would make statements without knowing rather than an opinon. This is not a place for opinion nor does it do any potential reader any good to not state fact.

Just above the type message box #3 "No Guesses - if you don't know, don't reply" couldn't be any clearer.

http://vfaq.com/mods/balance-shafts.html

Half way down the page are the oil pump gears, you will note the marks are to INDEX THE BALANCE SHAFT AND HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH PUMPING OIL!!

You kids are so bent on spreading urban legends rather than spending the time establishing facts from fiction. It scares me to think you claim to be an aircraft mechanic and yet can be so reckless to spread fiction.

Good luck,
GTM

 

[GTM]

...
Is your pickup bent? or oil pan dented? If the pick up is to close to the pan, then it wont have the clearance to suck in the oil.

I've seen hundreds if not thousands of dented oil pans and while the odds of having a perfect seal between the screen and the pan I guess there could exist that miniscule possibility. Usually what will happen is the engine will suffer from oil starvation at high RPM but will maintain proper pressure at idle. I have seen the pickup pipe bent or cracked at the flange brazing and allowed to suck air and oil but still moving some oil.

The previous (jesepes) poster's url showed the pressure relif valve which can be removed for inspection and should be an easy access to pump oil or even shove a 3' long hose past the bleed back hole. With a funnel at the other end suspended from the hood he can pour oil and crank the engine with a gravity flow after the filter is filled. If it's pumping oil it will blow the hose out so a drain pan is needed.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Fattie92]

I know its a long shot, but i have seen it happen. Cranked a new motor over and no oil pressure..took the engine back out, took it apart and put it back togeather.. when they put the oil pan back on, thats when they caught it. the pick up tube was basicly touching the bottom of the pan. Why didnt they have any oil circulation??? i dont know. But they just bent the pick up tube and everything was good to go after that. I have seen it once, and heard of it a few. Like i siad, its a LONG shot..but at least its something to go with.


Listen to GTM, he knows his stuff.

If you have no oil circulation then its one of 2 things. Either the oil pump isnt working properly, or there is a blockage of somesort. But usualy when there is a blockage, then you would get high oil pressure (as long as its past the oil filter housing) ... Do the tests GTM is suggesting, and see what happens. If no oil, i say take off the pan and take a look at whats going on.

 

[mysticfire6602]

well when i bought the car the oil pan had one hell of a huge dent in the oil pan, but that never had an affect on oil pressure. when i rebuilt the engine i took out the dent out of the oil pan, and i straightened out the oil screen. when i lubed up the bearings my teacher had me use lucas oil stabilizer, that shit's thick... ok, i have both balance shafts in, and yes i did take apart the oil pump. with the pressure relief, what do i do? do i just back off that bolt? or is it supposed to be tight? i now know what you are talking about and on my car it is tight. i guess the only other option i have besides that would be to see if somehow my pickup bent. ill check it out on monday when i go back to vo tech. thanks

 

[GTM]

...
and yes i did take apart the oil pump. with the pressure relief, what do i do? do i just back off that bolt? or is it supposed to be tight? i now know what you are talking about and on my car it is tight. i guess the only other option i have besides that would be to see if somehow my pickup bent. ill check it out on monday when i go back to vo tech. thanks

If I may ... scold you for omitting what were important facts. Nobody wants to be made a fool but we are trying to help.

My guess is the pickup tube is cracked or the flange is bent so badly it will never pull oil.

I've no idea what you did when you pulled the oil pump apart but my basic philosophy is to always make it better than what I found. If you or others don't understand please move to another thread. This is not the time for egos or guessing.
...............

It would be rare but well worth your while to pull the pressure relief for you need answers. The manual wont give specs but the copper washer should give you a hint that it's less than 35# but coule be 75 or even more because of metal bond.. Yes there will be a spring involved and it may require hand pressure when the ratchet doesn't function. The spring may fall out and the piston remain, the piston must be removed for examination. All of this is gut feelings and cannot be translated to words, anyone that wants to take me to task best put a $$$ with authority.

Use a pocket magnet, tease or any other method to get the piston out for it must be free. Thanks for asking, it's important and now isn't the time for novice voices.

Nothing could please me more than it to be something other than what I've suggested. Remain calm and know that NO machine is going to get the best of you.

Please do run this by your instructor, he has to speak in generalities but you must present the arguments unique to your condition. My vote is the pickup tube.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[ShaggieRL]

also here is a little known fact you may have the oil pump 180 outta place even if the mark lines up there is a bolt on the back of the block take it out after you remove the timing belt spin the oil pump gear till the it lines up and you can stick a screw driver all the way in then it's lined up if you cant your 180 out

 

[mysticfire6602]

ill check the oil pickup on monday, i hope thats all that it is, that would be easy. and when i did the timing belt i already made sure i timed the oil pump right. my screw driver went in all the way

 

[GTM]

...
my screw driver went in all the way

Just for fun...
Ya gotta be careful.

Said in jest for a very stressful situation.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[gurrmanator]

ok, i just got the whole engine completly done and reconnected yesterday. today i disabled the spark and fuel to prime it up by cranking it, and the gauge reads 0, so i hook a mechanical guage, and it reads 0. what the heck did i do wrong!

put everything back together and start the car,make damn sure the oil pressure gauage works.....when the car starts you will know rite away if you have oil pressure or not,if you dont,then shut the car off...you have enough lube on the bearings for a quick start-up.did you bleed your lifters?(if you took the cams out)

 

[mysticfire6602]

when i took the cams out i soaked the lifters in parts cleaner for 3 days, then soaked them in oil overnight, then pumped the oil out of them and put them back in

 

[jesepes]

I believe the oil pump has to be "timed" correctly because it runs the rear balance shaft, and the balance shaft has to be timed correctly. It has to work with the front shaft and crank/rotating assy. It is even in my Haynes Manual.

I don't understand why you would make statements without knowing rather than an opinon. This is not a place for opinion nor does it do any potential reader any good to not state fact.

I must admit that my last post could have been misleading, but the paragraph you qouted above is not opinion. It is fact.

I've never heard of anything suggesting the oil pump has to be indexed with the balance shaft drive gear whether it's been removed or not.... ....I've not been into the bottom end

Where do you have room to talk here?? I have rebuilt 4g63's before, I have taken apart the oil pump myself.

You kids are so bent on spreading urban legends rather than spending the time establishing facts from fiction. It scares me to think you claim to be an aircraft mechanic and yet can be so reckless to spread fiction

I take offense to this and would like you to take it back. I never tried to represent that oil pump functioning has anything to do with balance shaft timing. The pump doesn't care if the BS is timed, but the engine sure will because of vibration if it's off! You misread what I wrote. I'll try to be more clear in the future by restating the question I'm answering before I answer it. I try not to skim over someone's post and then bash them up about something I don't know much about(Which you said by your own admission.) Please re-read my post and try to look at it without the pretense that I'm some "kid" spreading "urban legends."

I am going to modify that post in 1 way only. That is to change paragraph where the sentence, "Did you disassemble the oil pump?" is. It's not much, but that's the biggest thing I can think to do to help separate thoughts a little. (Other than do what I stated above, in the last paragraph.)

I'm sorry for any confusion. Please take back what you said.
Thanks,

 

[jesepes]

with the pressure relief, what do i do? do i just back off that bolt? or is it supposed to be tight?

The valve is supposed to be tight in the oil housing. Unscrew it from the housing, examine piston like gtm said. With valve out, crank engine with oil-catch pan under open valve port. If oil comes out, problem is most likely relief valve (stuck open somehow). If no oil comes out, then pick up tube is next most likely (assuming pump is primed.)

Did you apply grease or oil to oil pump when you assembled it into the front cover? If not, the pump is running dry and needs primed (most likely.)

Note: it is easier on your engine to crank w/o oil pressure if you remove your spark plugs. This way the cylinder pressure is not fighting crank rotation and pushing your bearings against the crank journals!

I hope this helps.

 

[Defiant]

Has the oil pump been primed? Or did you put a new one on dry.

 

[mysticfire6602]

The valve is supposed to be tight in the oil housing. Unscrew it from the housing, examine piston like gtm said. With valve out, crank engine with oil-catch pan under open valve port. If oil comes out, problem is most likely relief valve (stuck open somehow). If no oil comes out, then pick up tube is next most likely (assuming pump is primed.)

Did you apply grease or oil to oil pump when you assembled it into the front cover? If not, the pump is running dry and needs primed (most likely.)

Note: it is easier on your engine to crank w/o oil pressure if you remove your spark plugs. This way the cylinder pressure is not fighting crank rotation and pushing your bearings against the crank journals!

I hope this helps.

my spark plugs have been out the whole time.

my teacher claims that he primed the oil pump prior to install. how would a non-primed oil pump work compared to a primed one? would it just not suck up oil? and in the case i have to take the oil pump back out, do i really need to take the engine back out, ive already taken it out 2 times in 1 month and i dont feel like taking it back out.