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1G Lifting head?? Maybe... I need some diagnosis & help

Posted by Cameron Morison, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:26 AM

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  1. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Hi Guys

    Im in the process of trying to diagnose whether I am lifting the head, or having head sealing issues on my race motor. So in short, here are some main specs
    ~ 100mm crank
    ~ 8.5:1 JE pistons
    ~ Mitsubishi OEM MLS gasket
    ~ ARP 12mm head studs
    ~ Galant VR4 block (same as 1G I think)
    ~ Evo head (same as 2G I think)
    ~ Borg S200SXE turbo (makes 16psi by 3000rpm in 5th gear!) Running up to 23psi
    ~ Kelford TX278 Cams
    ~ 1.1 Bar pressure cap on coolant reservoir

    I think that should be enough of the main specs. I'm logging coolant pressure on the Link, using a honeywell pressure transducer. It does have a pressurized expansion tank rather than the factory recovery bottle style. When I have been hitting boost I see a rise in coolant pressure, more pronounced when the engine has been driven hard for more than half a lap, up to 150kpa, which then settles back down to 100kpa as you sustain load, and when you drop off the throttle it goes back down to 80kpa. There is evidence of mainly air getting pushed out the pressure relief of the radiator cap. This happens at all boost levels but the pressure rise in the cooling system was more pronounced at higher boost.

    I have just re-torqued the head studs, put them back to the spec 90ft.lbs and some moved a little more, some went back to original position, the ones that moved more were predominantly on the exhaust side. Then I retorqued them again, up to 95 this time, so 5 over the ARP spec. I havnt had a chance to test it in anger (Cant drive it on the road) but on the hoist against the brakes I was able to get it up on boost and the first couple runs the pressure spiked reasonably high, but I wonder if this was due to having topped up the expansion tank to be brimmed. Then the last couple runs the pressure was much more stable at 100kpa throughout the run.

    So really, I'm not sure if I have a pinhole leak somewhere or a head lift issue. There are absolutely no other symptoms of head gasket failure, temps are fantastic. Coolant temps are consistent and low 90's. Its not pushing water but that could be part of the design where there is a head of air on top of the water. On the old system where it ran the recovery bottle it would drop about 50mm from the top level in the system constantly, then stabilize at that level.

    Attached files: coolant pressure dsm 1 = pulling onto the main straight at Manfeild
    coolant pressure dsm 1.png
    coolant pressure dsm 2 = on the hoist, loading it up as best as I can in 4th gear, after retorque studs
    coolant pressure dsm 2.png

    Looking if anyone can share experiences on this topic. where limits were found... solutions etc. Thanks
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  2. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    5,353
    2,665
    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas
    I wouldn't think 23 lbs of boost would lift a head, well it doesn't on my HX40 motor anyway and that is what boost level I am running. Did you have the block and head both decked before assembly?
     

    Street Build 4K  29

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    14.74 @ 117.04 · 1G DSM

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    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

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    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 6K  13  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  3. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand

    Neither would have I. In a previous life this block was running around 40psi on a big garret, but the owner at that stage used a o-ring style head gasket. I do want to avoid that if possible so I don't have to skim the head every time it comes off.

    The head was skimmed several years before I got it, there were a couple marks on it but nothing that would catch a fingernail. Block had been done in the past so I just cleaned up the surface. Its definitely something I regret not decking both surfaces again but the build was a lot different when I put that motor together and budget was tighter. It would be nice to rule that out but I know that its entirely a possibility.
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  4. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    5,353
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    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas
    Yes, at least you are aware of that. I understand the budget in different stages of life. My engines all get decked and heads surfaced now. Just something I do to make SURE it is going to seal. I use Cometic MLS and HKS headgaskets on most builds, although I do have a newly rebuilt "stockish" motor that has a FelPro composite on it. On all, I hold the head down tight. More than specified by a book or manual but I don't recommend it unless you have confidence in your abilities to do it.
     

    Street Build 4K  29

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    14.74 @ 117.04 · 1G DSM

    1K  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    749  18

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 1K  7

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 6K  13  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  5. SasaniFab

    SasaniFab Freelancer

    2,237
    658
    Joined Dec 1, 2013
    danbury, Connecticut
    All of the motors I’ve built use L19s with an hks head gasket. I had a similar issue on a motor when using an oem mls headgasket without freshly decking the block. The hks gasket is just a much better gasket imo , I’d recommend switching to an hks and increases the torque to 105-110, if you can afford it go to the l19s for good measure. When I say freshly decked I mean Within a few thousand miles for the record.
     

    Street Build 3K  20

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    645 whp · 498 lb/ft · 1G DSM
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  6. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Joined Nov 19, 2011
    oklahoma city, Oklahoma
    Have you considered the thought that coolant can pressurize from other sources? Is the turbo water cooled? Do you have coolant going through the throttle body?
     

    Street Build 3K  1

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  7. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Interesting. Its so hard to know what head gasket is best but I am open to finding another good one. Permanent is a common and easy brand to source here in NZ, i will try to find out about if they are any good also
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  8. SasaniFab

    SasaniFab Freelancer

    2,237
    658
    Joined Dec 1, 2013
    danbury, Connecticut
    Hks is the best headgasket for the 4g63 when not using orings. Period
     

    Street Build 3K  20

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    645 whp · 498 lb/ft · 1G DSM
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  9. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    I see HKS advertise theirs as being a stopper style gasket, is OEM one like this too, or does it have a different construction?

    The turbo is only oil cooled, throttle body doesnt have water lines.
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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  10. SasaniFab

    SasaniFab Freelancer

    2,237
    658
    Joined Dec 1, 2013
    danbury, Connecticut
    The hks head gasket has more layers and each layer is thicker.... It’s really the best you can do for this style
     

    Street Build 3K  20

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    645 whp · 498 lb/ft · 1G DSM
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  11. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Ok, good things to consider. Im going to go warm up the car and get it on boost to see if I have any leakage measured. Hopefully nothing like the final runs last time. If I do have leakage then I think Im going to go down the new head gasket route.
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
    Loading...
  12. Cameron Morison

    Cameron Morison Probationary Member

    19
    4
    Joined Nov 12, 2018
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    Ive just finished doing a couple of runs just against the brakes on the hoist. Promising results:
    ~ first three runs, basically I started once the water temp was up to thermostat temp, the engine hadn't fully heat soaked yet at that stage though. The first run was zero change in coolant pressure, sat at 100kpa (I've just put a 1.3 bar cap on), second run saw a rise to about 160kpa, but it wasn't in line with boost, happened very late in the piece, 3rd run was similar.

    coolant run 123.png

    ~ last couple runs were rock solid and only slight and gentle increases which I put down to the rising coolant temperature.

    coolant run 45.png

    So at the moment I think I am going to be best to leave the gasket as-is, go out racing and collect data under race conditions and go from there. Im tossing between the Permaseal MLS-R gasket and the HKS one, both use folded stopper rings, and same 4 layers of steel, a friend has been using a Permaseal one in his Evo which is around 600whp with no issues, but plenty of time to research as its a while before Ill be able to get race data

    I will keep the thread updated as it develops.
     

    517  6

    1993 Mitsubishi Mirage
    awd · manual · 4G63t Swapped
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