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Am i just lifting the head or what???

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turboglenn

15+ Year Contributor
6,375
111
Nov 5, 2007
RIpley, West_Virginia
OK, this is the 2nd HG in say 2 months tops.. The last one went during a nice 30psi pull, but gave no sign of blowing other than spraying coolant all over the engine bay. This time it went during a high RPM high boost mis-fire and left no clue other than a slight trickle of coolant fromthe back of the engine that it was blown. (in both cases comression was perfect) This time luckily the coolant and oil didn't mix and i don't have to clean up that mess.

Anyway, this one blew on a completely different cylinder with none of the placeswhere it "blew" lining up with with the places where it blew last time.

Also the way the gsket is going out (large chunks from the "upper side" are missing) is un-like any other way i've watched HG's blow out, usually it's a straight path from one cylinder outwards. in my cases there's been no burning from the cylinders and they've all been paths from coolant and oil passages. although there has been some of that "lead material" missing from around the combusion rings on some cylinders..

This one started a coolat leak from around cylinder 3, yet there was a ton of that "lead" missng from around cylinder #1 but never gave any sign of being blown to me at all.

So since nothing is consistant except the fact they aren't blowing at the combustion rings,and the way the material is missin fromthem, does this show signs of lifting the head consistantly or a few times during tuning?? I can't diagnose this mis-fire either, it's spark blow out for sure as it only happens under boost levels in the 2-30psi range and only happens under WOT and loads higher than 2nd gear

here's a link to the pics of the last failure o the HG
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...432505-help-me-choose-head-gasket-please.html


here's pics of he latest failure, Pic #1 is the entire gasket
Pic # 2 shows the area where the coolant was leaking from (but the tricke on the outside came from the area just left of that but it could have been following the exposed path of the HG before dripping)

pic # 3 shows the wear/loss of material on cylinder #1 which didn't show any signs of trouble at all that i know of, except MAYBE (and it's a big maybe) that i had a pretty stiff upper radiator hose but it's sorta always been that way

EDIT: As for copper spray on composite gaskets, what's everyone's stanc on that? I would love to hear from jackson auto machine and BogusSVO on both of these questions (the above and the copper spray)
 

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Damn Glenn... again?!?!?!

Do what I told you last time.... Deck the block
 
Are you sure your not letting it detonate a little? Bogus is probably right, I had mine decked when I built it, and I've only lost one hg, and it was only pushing coolant a little bit, after a zillion agressive pump gas tune passes. After I fixed it I had a lot of 35psi time on E85 with some knock here and there and its still rock solid.

And I run a cheapo felpro and standard ARP's. Similar turbo setup to.

Are you using moly lube on the studs when you assemble it?
 
You answered your question in the first paragraph. It let loose while misfiring. The high cylinder pressure likely caused the head to flex.

As for the copper spray that you asked about, we only use it on copper or steel shim gaskets that don't come with a coating on them from the factory or sealer around the water ports. The gasket manufacturers spend a lot of R&D coming up with coatings and finished to promote sealing so we like to think they know more than we do. If we find one that doesn't work, we simply dont use that type of gasket anymore.
 
I'd like to thank everyone for their input and answers. And i'm sure this one let loose when i mis-fired under high boost and was probably beatup from a few previous happenings of the same kind (need better spark now too i guess :p)

The head and block were both surfaced when built, block has 30k on it and this head was surfaced not 7k miles ago when i replaced a crashed valve train

I always use the ARP lube, i have a big tube of it. I have never really "over-torqued" them (some ARP boxes say 80lb/ft and some say 90 so i always go 85lb/ft)

Also, I measured the ARP head bolts and i have stretched them, either from the airflow it took to lift the head (been pushing to make 600hp and data logging has shown a fuel usuage estimated ~550 according to the math) The head bolts are ranging from .001 - .0035" longer than a new oem measurement that was taken on them when bought (just happened to be wreitten on the box that i now keep different sealants gathered in )

I've just finished settting on the head/intake manifold with a friend(no copper used a i remember BogusSVO told me no on the last one i did)

I'm in the middle if filing bankruptcy so money to pull the block and have it decked is just not in the budget and from my checks to the best of my ability neither the head nor the block "need" it.

Get this, Advanced auto even warrantied the HG because it wasn't blown on any of the fire rings and was just washed away graphite from the coolant passages :D so it only cost me an oil change, new coolant and labor (but more than i wanted to unvest either way LOL)

when torquing the HG this time i could feel that 2 of my ARP's were indeed shot as they were spongy when tightening up, so i'm keeping boost and timing lower until i get the H11's or L19's in there.

Hopefully i can keep my bill me later account up to date and not closed in my chpter 7 filing coming up cause lord knows the DSM will always need parts LOL

After the Chapt 7 gets filed and i get out fdorm under this mountain of dept, then i'll probably take the time to pull the block next summer and have it ad the head checked and surfaced if needed.. I also hope for a 272 intake cam to replace my 264 and to get to finish tuning the turbo in at 30-33psi And after that i've only got drivetrain and looks to focus on again <(was already there untill i put this HX40/35 hybrid on and got the 1600's to let me push it LOL) I seriousely never had ssues until i moved up from the 57 trim to the 67mm and then the holset and 1600's combo, but i was maxing out at less than 500hp back then at best, now i'm logging the type of power to make 550+ and the heads are repeatedly lifting so it's plain as day what i need to do next.

THanks again everyone, feel free to add to this or carry on the convo :D

P.S. I know it's detonated and mis-fired a bit on both recent gaskets, but i think the fact that the airflow levels this is happening at is more of what's going on than anything else. AS for my plan to replace these studs with l19/h11 style while leaviong this gasket in place (one stud at a time like we tell people to do when going from stck to plain ARPs') do you machinists think she'll hold then?

Neither time have i let the car over heat or had to drive it more than a mille or so to ge home and apart
 
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