Street Build ITFLYS - 1Gina2G

[jed344]

I know not of this sorcery. What are you looking at on the plug?

Best way would be to watch a video on how to read plugs. But you put a fresh plug in, as little idle and drive time as possible i usually put one in before a pass or pull. Make the pull or pass then shut the motor off right away and pull that plug. When you look at it you will see a burn mark on the ground strap. This indicates how much timing the motor want's as it shows how the burn is happening in the cylinder. The mark usually shows up faintly in blue or black line. Ideally is have this mark right at the bend area. When the mark is on the flat part above the center this means the motor wants more timing and if its past the bend in almost to the base that would indicate you have a lot of timing and likely to much. When you have WAY to much it will even burn off the ground strap.

 

[Justin DuBois]

The jump appears again in this log on the last pull.

 

[jed344]

The jump appears again in this log on the last pull.
View attachment 759310
View attachment 759308

I see the map sensor reading is bouncing around. I have before with cars seen this with that exact AEM map sensor that once replaced fixed it. These cars the jumping continued to get worse before replacement. I do not feel this is a big issue right now but it does make me suspicious if sometimes its perfect then other times its jumpy that maybe you as well have a map sensor starting to act up. When they do it causes all sorts of strange things as being on SD the car has no idea of air flow just pressure and temp. I often see it cause the cars to jump down a row and back in timing table's ect because the car thinks load is changing rapidly as the map sensor jumps.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I see the map sensor reading is bouncing around. I have before with cars seen this with that exact AEM map sensor that once replaced fixed it. These cars the jumping continued to get worse before replacement. I do not feel this is a big issue right now but it does make me suspicious if sometimes its perfect then other times its jumpy that maybe you as well have a map sensor starting to act up. When they do it causes all sorts of strange things as being on SD the car has no idea of air flow just pressure and temp. I often see it cause the cars to jump down a row and back in timing table's ect because the car thinks load is changing rapidly as the map sensor jumps.

That sounds exactly like what is happening.

 

[jed344]

That sounds exactly like what is happening.

The time i saw it with a aem 3.5 bar the sensor was already doing it worse then yours and within a week or so it became very rough. Replacement of the sensor and it was perfect again. I have seen it too that if the map sensor is on a distro bar that is not mounted well that shaking can cause the sensor to do similar things.

Time will tell but this sounds like map sensor.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Stickers arrived!

This is what street trim 400hp looks like:

 

[Justin DuBois]

This arrived quickly!

 

[Justin DuBois]

Nah - its not the sensor -

Something else is happening just after the boost spike, where the timing drops below 5. I can hear a shift in the exhaust note, and the AFR's go rich.

 

[We're on Boost]

Something else is happening just after the boost spike, where the timing drops below 5. I can hear a shift in the exhaust note, and the AFR's go rich.

I don't think I understand why you are having a boost spike in the first place. Your WG duty is 100% all the way through. Maybe your wastegate is blowing open a little bit at the boost spike? That would make the sound change.

The timing in your table at LoadFactor 2.7 is so low, seems unnecessarily low. Seems like your numbers at LoadFactor 2.6 could just be carried through to the bottom of the chart.

I'm kind of glad it wasn't the MAP sensor. I would like to think that the stainless cylindrical sensors sold by Zeit and AEM are pretty reliable. Hoping so. My AEM oil pressure gauge gets wacky sometimes but it's just the gauge. I know it's not the sensor because I have another signal wire running from the sensor directly to a voltage logger, and that logged voltage is always right where it should be. It is so consistent I would probably know from it if the oil cooler thermostat was messing up.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I don't think I understand why you are having a boost spike in the first place. Your WG duty is 100% all the way through. Maybe your wastegate is blowing open a little bit at the boost spike? That would make the sound change.

The timing in your table at LoadFactor 2.7 is so low, seems unnecessarily low. Seems like your numbers at LoadFactor 2.6 could just be carried through to the bottom of the chart.

I'm kind of glad it wasn't the MAP sensor. I would like to think that the stainless cylindrical sensors sold by Zeit and AEM are pretty reliable. Hoping so. My AEM oil pressure gauge gets wacky sometimes but it's just the gauge. I know it's not the sensor because I have another signal wire running from the sensor directly to a voltage logger, and that logged voltage is always right where it should be. It is so consistent I would probably know from it if the oil cooler thermostat was messing up.

The new sensor is performing same, so I'm glad its not that too. Now I have a spare. The WG and the spike moving the timing is next to adjust. That part of the timing is from the EVO map, and I've never been to this boost level. I'll try smoothing that dip out. The WG is set to hold all it can, which means it won't open until the exhaust pressure overcomes the 1.5bar spring. If that is what is happening, it is interesting that it happens at the lowest timing advance.

 

[We're on Boost]

Well on the plus side, having lowest timing and richest AFR at the place where boost comes up fully, that's where that should happen.

I don't remember now what boost control solenoid you are using. Is it the stock one?
I remember going through a solenoid improvement experience with @GST with PSI in 2017 ...
Found it. Seems to me this might be relevant to your setup. It's interesting stuff at the least.
If you read post #268 and then post #273 here, that's pretty much it, I guess start with post #259 actually:
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsi-galant-vr4-1837-of-2000.482807/page-11#post-153630622

The Ingersoll Rand solenoid (or IR BCS) is the one that ECMtuning tells people to use on one of their web pages.

 

[Justin DuBois]

The new sensor is performing same, so I'm glad its not that too. Now I have a spare. The WG and the spike moving the timing is next to adjust. That part of the timing is from the EVO map, and I've never been to this boost level. I'll try smoothing that dip out. The WG is set to hold all it can, which means it won't open until the exhaust pressure overcomes the 1.5bar spring. If that is what is happening, it is interesting that it happens at the lowest timing advance.

Yeeeaaah... Right off the edge of the timing table isn't gonna help on E-85

 

[We're on Boost]

Seems like your numbers at LoadFactor 2.6 could just be carried through to the bottom of the chart.

I think even your numbers at LoadFactor 2.4 could just be carried through to the bottom of the chart.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I think even your numbers at LoadFactor 2.4 could just be carried through to the bottom of the chart.

Ima try this:

 

[miliman13]

This arrived quickly!
View attachment 759548

Hey I’ve been thinking about picking this exact sensor up and had a quick question .

I know it says 0psi-0.5 volts on packaging,
And on site, but this is what makes this type of sensor useable for engine pressures, due to it reading in the negative scale or vacuum. Compared to the gauge only positive scale sensors.

So my question is does it read negative at idle aka 0.5v ? Thanks

 

[Justin DuBois]

Hey I’ve been thinking about picking this exact sensor up and had a quick question .

I know it says 0psi-0.5 volts on packaging,
And on site, but this is what makes this type of sensor useable for engine pressures, due to it reading in the negative scale or vacuum. Compared to the gauge only positive scale sensors.
View attachment 759726
So my question is does it read negative at idle aka 0.5v ? Thanks

In ECM Link, yes it displays as -inHg when below ambient and +0-45psi above ambient

The voltage output from the sensor is always positive - between 0 and 5v. You tell the software what linear scale to display when you define the Voltage per PSI and Voltage at 0psi, or pick a preset (like AEM 3.5bar)

The raw voltage is then converted to psi/bar when it is displayed. From vacuum to ambient is 1 atmosphere, which is about a 14.7psi swing in pressure (1 BAR)

 

[Justin DuBois]

That's so much torque! - Timing edits look nice, but the jump in AFR is still showing after getting good and hot.

 

[We're on Boost]

That's so much torque! - Timing edits look nice, but the jump in AFR is still showing after getting good and hot.

That log looks good. Timing not going below 7 degrees now at the boost peak.
What jump in AFR are you talking about? Do you mean like where the AFR is 12.2 at 805.743 and then all of a sudden it is 11.5 at 806.043?

 

[Justin DuBois]

That log looks good. Timing not going below 7 degrees now at the boost peak.
What jump in AFR are you talking about? Do you mean like where the AFR is 12.2 at 805.743 and then all of a sudden it is 11.5 at 806.043?

The sudden rich shift to 11.5 seems like some condition has been reached.

timing map does look good

The high torque and HP in this pull is likely a downhill onramp.

 

[We're on Boost]

The sudden rich shift to 11.5 seems like some condition has been reached.

It looks like the rich shift happens actually at 805.645 to 805.694 secs.
In that short span of 0.049 seconds the AEM3.5Bar jumps from 24.4 psi to 27.8 psi.
Hard to believe.
So with the MAP doing that, the injector duty cycle jumps from 54.6 to 60.4 which is your rich shift happening.
The wideband gets mostly caught up with it about 0.148 seconds later which is reasonable lag for a wideband I think.
Yeah I see the same thing happening around 1043 seconds.
Injector On Time there has a wild bump in it as MAP goes from 26.4 psi to 30.5 psi in just 4 clicks of the right arrow button and by that time the wideband AFR is dropping fast.
The calculated Airflow goes up in step with the injector duty cycle.
Injector duty cycle and injector On time are real things that are measured. Whereas airflow is not exactly real, it is just calculated.
Your injector duty cycle really goes up, but I think the actual airflow isn't going up as much as the MAP says it is. So the actual AFR from your wideband goes richer.
Then it all kind of settles down and runs at 11.6 - 11.8 AFR for the rest of the pull.
I don't know why the MAP and/or ECU is doing this. It seems like it could be wrong. But it also seems like a pretty small thing, I mean the AFR that it's going to isn't bad, it just isn't what you wanted!

 

[We're on Boost]

It sure looks temperature related like you said. Because in the first 2 pulls it doesn't do this, but in the last 2 it does, after everything is heated up.
BTW these IAT sensors are really slow. The logged values of IAT that we see look like the air temp is coming up nice and gradual thoughout the pull, like it is in no hurry to get hot. But your actual air temp rise is probably a lot faster.
So if there is a blast of hot air as the turbo gets to full boost, the actual air is not very dense, but the IAT doesn't know that yet because it is so slow.
So your actual air/fuel will be richer than it should be, because the IAT isn't correcting it fast enough. Know what I mean?
If you read the Thermal Time Constant spec for the AEM IAT sensor it will make you wonder, can't they do better than this?
I think the GMIAT is the same thing as the AEM IAT sensor.
I wonder what kind of IAT sensor they use in an F1 car?

 

[We're on Boost]

Come to think of it, I don't know how late model OEMs use the IAT sensor in their cars. Maybe they don't use them the same way we do. Maybe the way they use them it wouldn't matter that they are slow. For instance, with a MAF, if you have an IAT in the MAF and the MAF is before the turbo, or there is no turbo, then it wouldn't matter that the IAT sensor is slow.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Playing with boost control to manage the spike: 2-3-4 gear. It's too bad there isn't a 4th and 5th gear line in the boost control -

 

[We're on Boost]

Playing with boost control to manage the spike: 2-3-4 gear.

Yeah I don't see that sudden jump in the ZT35Bar graph in the pic. But it's only 207 seconds into the log. Does it still look good a few minutes later, like where the problem was showing up before ? (at around 800 seconds).

 

[We're on Boost]

Justin, did you have Japan F1 Quali on any of your TV channels there? I couldn't find it. Seems odd. All the other stuff, P1,2,3 and the race were all there.