innovate mtx-l o2 issue again WTH

[enriquez2000]

I moved the 02 to where innovate recommends, used their bung etc... o2 lasted the last couple weeks and then when I set my target fuel from 15.8(on e85) to 14.7 i got 30 miles down the road and it went bonkers on me.. and error-ed. There is no reason i should need to target 15.8 to keep my 02 sensor alive..... any ideas?

 

[bastarddsm]

Well, I'd hate to argue with the guy that invented the 4 stroke engine, or the guys that designed ours, ect.

 

[kjlinwi]

Wow you should read more carefully. I trained with Kenny, he taught me. Who taught you? Yes by all means, make fun of what you can't obtain yourself. Pass your ASE's and then we'll talk. As regards ASE giving me clues, no its the other way around. Ive been tested by an independent third party, specifically in tests a8 engine performance and L-1 advanced engine performance to know what I'm doing. Who certified you?

You obviously feel the need to exert your superiority. Have at it. I make my living doing this. Life's too short to deal with those who can't/won't learn.I have no interest in warring with unarmed individuals. I make a good living doing this and i have a lot full of cars to do this on with a zero dollar advertising budget.

Turbos all over the market on ecoboost cars, Diesel trucks and VW's just to name a few examples. I work on all of them. Do you?

For the record. Both Honda and Toyota (obviously Acura and Lexus) use wide band O2 sensors and have for over a decade. I deal with them almost daily. Do you?

Wideband and even regular O2s use a heater element to heat up the sensor because it won't work when cold. The controller turns on the heater on initial start up so that the car will go into close loop which is fuel control mode. On cold start up the engine runs off program which is called open loop and does not use fuel control because the O2s aren't warmed up enough yet to give a feedback signal that is valid. First Gen O2 sensors did not have this heater in them and they lasted for ever. The heater is to bring the O2 online faster so that the car goes into closed loop which cleans up emissions. The heater is for emissions not O2 longevity.

If you don't know what a labscope is, you need to go educate yourself. For those willing to listen and learn, it graphs voltage over time at an extremely high sampling rate so that you can actually see what the sensor is doing without any interference or interpretation of the signal by a controller. And they are very expensive. Several thousand dollars depending on manufacturer.

Heat shock is NOT the main cause of a oxygen sensor failing. It sits in 600+ degree heat. How are you going to cool it down too fast? And it has a heater element in it so that it heats up faster than the exhaust BY DESIGN.
Contamination is what kills them.

As far as the bottom feeder comment, I have never thought that nor do I now regarding other techs, customers, or car enthusiasts. But if that is how you think of yourself, i certainly concur.


Please by all means, keep swinging.

 

[kjlinwi]

Error Code 8 is for sensor failure. The hot/cool part of the code is only relevant if the code sets under WOT which it doesn't sound like you are.

Stoichiometry for E85 is around 9.7:1 Based on your numbers your running around 10.5 on E85 when you have it set at 15.8. Not that far off, but thats lean and not rich. Be interesting to know what EGTs are at the different ratios. When you are adjusting the sensor to lower numbers, you are actually adding fuel. It's possible that it is getting fuel fouled. Stoichiometry is an ideal but every engine is different.

Do you have access to a G-tech?

Who is the manufacturer of the sensor and the part number that you are using?

 

[Mauispyder]

kjlinwi
Thanks for the breakdown on O2 sensors. Just wondering if you know why the makers of the wideband sensors caution us to locate the sensors so far downstream of the turbos? It's pretty inconvenient depending on your setup.

 

[kjlinwi]

I'm honestly not sure why that is. The OE ones are much closer. My guess is that they are worried about contamination problems and moving it downstream helps to prevent that. Especially on older cars that might have leaking turbo seals, oil blow by, etc.

Just a swag, but it kind of makes sense to me for that reason. I can't think of any other. Especially when I look at their bung that looks alot like the old restrictors that I would see people install on spark plugs to prevent them from fouling out on oil burning engines.

Could be wrong on that one though.

 

[enriquez2000]

Error Code 8 is for sensor failure. The hot/cool part of the code is only relevant if the code sets under WOT which it doesn't sound like you are.

Stoichiometry for E85 is around 9.7:1 Based on your numbers your running around 10.5 on E85 when you have it set at 15.8. Not that far off, but thats lean and not rich. Be interesting to know what EGTs are at the different ratios. When you are adjusting the sensor to lower numbers, you are actually adding fuel. It's possible that it is getting fuel fouled. Stoichiometry is an ideal but every engine is different.

Do you have access to a G-tech?

Who is the manufacturer of the sensor and the part number that you are using?

So i ditched the 15.8 afr and have the car set to normal stoich so it bounces between13.8 and 15.2 in closed loop. Wot varies but never goes below 12. Thise are gas afrs but lambda is lamda regardless of how it displays so im running around 1 lambda in closed loop and not too rich on wot.

Sensors for this gauge are bosch 17014. I moved mine downstream 36 inches from turbo because i wanted to follow every step innovate recommends.

So far nothing i do makes a difference. I do not have access to g-tech.

 

[kjlinwi]

ok, we gotta knock off the lamda is lamda comments. You say that without any foundation in understanding the correlation between afr and lamda. For your real world example on your equipment. the voltages at 9.7:1 for e85 and 14.7:1 for gas are not the same voltages.

That's problem #1

#2 Your looking at gas numbers which have a different scale than the e85 scale. Your car is running according to your numbers around a 10.5 ratio for e85. A range of less than 1. But you keep looking at the wrong scale which gives you a larger range so it visually looks "worse" to you.

#3 your looking at processed numbers that have been interpreted by the controller. For true accuracy, you have to take your readings at the sensor directly.

#4 Your taking AFR as Gospel and it's not. It is a theoretical value based on a perfect world. 14.7 is the accepted theoretical value for gas, but there is discussion that a more correct number would be 15:1.

#5 Part of the value in Wideband sensors is the much tighter fuel control possible with them. There LEV and ULEV cars running these sensors that are running in the 17:1 range. Again, these sensors were originally designed to improve emissions.

#6 You need to test EGT and Performance of your car at the different AFRs and you need to test at the sensor to see what is actually being read.

The idea behind tuning a car is that you tweak the electronics to improve performance. Dialing in a theoretical number and expecting the car to work well with no measuring or testing of components does not mean that it is going to work the way you want it to.

Maybe your car runs better on a slightly leaner setting. Without further info on the feedback system or performance results, we have no way of knowing. What we do know is that you can't force an engine to run at an artificial number. The electronics are a system that have to work together. I think you are too focused on an arbitrary number without looking at what that arbitrary number is doing to the whole system and what gives you the most power gain.

 

[enriquez2000]

ok, we gotta knock off the lamda is lamda comments. You say that without any foundation in understanding the correlation between afr and lamda. For your real world example on your equipment. the voltages at 9.7:1 for e85 and 14.7:1 for gas are not the same voltages.

That's problem #1

#2 Your looking at gas numbers which have a different scale than the e85 scale. Your car is running according to your numbers around a 10.5 ratio for e85. A range of less than 1. But you keep looking at the wrong scale which gives you a larger range so it visually looks "worse" to you.

#3 your looking at processed numbers that have been interpreted by the controller. For true accuracy, you have to take your readings at the sensor directly.

#4 Your taking AFR as Gospel and it's not. It is a theoretical value based on a perfect world. 14.7 is the accepted theoretical value for gas, but there is discussion that a more correct number would be 15:1.

#5 Part of the value in Wideband sensors is the much tighter fuel control possible with them. There LEV and ULEV cars running these sensors that are running in the 17:1 range. Again, these sensors were originally designed to improve emissions.

#6 You need to test EGT and Performance of your car at the different AFRs and you need to test at the sensor to see what is actually being read.

The idea behind tuning a car is that you tweak the electronics to improve performance. Dialing in a theoretical number and expecting the car to work well with no measuring or testing of components does not mean that it is going to work the way you want it to.

Maybe your car runs better on a slightly leaner setting. Without further info on the feedback system or performance results, we have no way of knowing. What we do know is that you can't force an engine to run at an artificial number. The electronics are a system that have to work together. I think you are too focused on an arbitrary number without looking at what that arbitrary number is doing to the whole system and what gives you the most power gain.

While all that is good info... how do i fix the sensor problem? Or do you believe the controller is just not handling the voltages properly and causing sensor failure?

Plx controller works fine on e85 in my other car on richer afrs than what im running in this car.

 

[kjlinwi]

my guess at this point with ldd (long distance diagnosis -never good) is that you already found your fix. Running it at 15.8 worked fine for weeks.

You only had problems when you enriched the fuel delivery and that's when the sensor died. Pulling the sensor and inspecting it shows a rich condition on the sensor so that's one feedback we can look at. Another feedback you could do is shoot the exhaust right after the manifold with an infrared temp gun after exact pulls one at 15.8 and one at 14.7. There are correlations between egt and air fuel. This is only a very rough correlation because of the inaccuracies of the temp gun but its better than nothing.

Might want to look at a g-tech as well. You can find them reasonably priced on ebay every so often. They are finicky little bastards but after some practice, it does give you an idea if your headed the right way.

I think that for whatever reason, your car runs better at leaner settings. That can be a function of injector atomization, combustion chamber size, shape or even the way the e85 is quenched in the chamber.

I have one of the innovate wide band set ups for my wifes car that I have not installed mainly because I wasn't sure it was worth the effort since its already running the Saf-C. I did find several inconsistencies in the Innovate literature, the O2 sensor specs straight from Bosch, and the Sensor Test Procedures out of the VW (these are a VW sensor) service manual. I'm going to contact them directly this week and see what I can find out.

 

[GST with PSI]

First, there are HUNDREDS of people running the LC-1/LC-2 on every fuel know to man. We (me included) don't have a single issue. Therefore, there is something wrong with your setup in particular. Innovate keeps saying it's you fault because the other million customers they have aren't having any issues...So start looking at it from that perspective.

In the 2 threads I've seen you create on the same topic, I've seen every possible solution to your problem mentioned. E85 is not what's killing your sensor. You likely have it wired incorrectly, or the controller is junk. These are the only two constants aside from fuel WHICH IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

All widebands read in lambda and show afr's based on what scale you are using in the controller. Stoich is stoich(1.00 lambda) no matter what fuel it is.

^ As far as the lambda goes, this is all anyone needs to know.

 

[kjlinwi]

If the setup is wired incorrectly... then how would it work correctly for weeks? Wired up wrong would mean its not working correctly all of the time. And how do you explain the exact correlation that it only acts up when he richens the mixture up? Wired wrong theory doesn't agree with the so far stated information given by the op. Esp when we consider he has this set up in another vehicle of his and it works correctly there.

Bad Controller? Possibly and when he drives the system rich it goes too rich? Possible but not likely but worth testing. How would we test that? by checking the feedback on the system in one of the several ways that I've already mentioned.

Lamda is not lamda outside of the theory/lab. In the real world, there is a difference. If you want to start a new thread on that feel free and we can discuss this in greater detail.

 

[enriquez2000]

First, there are HUNDREDS of people running the LC-1/LC-2 on every fuel know to man. We (me included) don't have a single issue. Therefore, there is something wrong with your setup in particular. Innovate keeps saying it's you fault because the other million customers they have aren't having any issues...So start looking at it from that perspective.

In the 2 threads I've seen you create on the same topic, I've seen every possible solution to your problem mentioned. E85 is not what's killing your sensor. You likely have it wired incorrectly, or the controller is junk. These are the only two constants aside from fuel WHICH IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.



^ As far as the lambda goes, this is all anyone needs to know.

I have it directly wired to the pins on the ecu with a fuse on the power side. Dont see how thats bad wiring. Im as frustrated with this as you are reading it(by the tone of your typing). I just want it to work as it should. Ive done EVERYTHING innovate has suggested with no help

 

[lasthope05]

Then bad controller. Is that what you want to hear? Suck it up and go with a new unit or a different company if Innovate isnt helping you out. This has seriously dragged on much longer than needed. We've all given you the same advice.

 

[kjlinwi]

Or do some real testing, get into understanding the feedback, learn how to really tune a car and not just play with gadgets and numbers and understand that 14.7 is a theoretical number and really understand whats going on inside your engine.

Realize that there may not be anything wrong with your car, you just need to run it at different numbers. Isn't that really why we buy the extra equipmment? So that we can tweak it to where the car works best? If you didn't want to change the AFR off of the magical 14.7 then why would you buy this stuff anyway? The whole goal isn't to make the car run at an arbitrary number. Its to find out which modified number helps my car perform better at whatever my goal is.