innovate mtx-l o2 issue again WTH

[enriquez2000]

I moved the 02 to where innovate recommends, used their bung etc... o2 lasted the last couple weeks and then when I set my target fuel from 15.8(on e85) to 14.7 i got 30 miles down the road and it went bonkers on me.. and error-ed. There is no reason i should need to target 15.8 to keep my 02 sensor alive..... any ideas?

 

[kjlinwi]

I would quit running on e85. I would bet thats your problem. E85 is for flex fuel vehicles which these are not. The energy (btu) in e85 is less than gas, the ethanol is harder on seals and components, esp those that arent designed for it. It also changes the crossover point for an o2 sensor. All your equipment is calibrated to run on gas, not e85.

Yes i know about the popularity of e85 as a power adder for turbos. If you run it, you cant use 14.7:1 as stoichiometry. That value is for gas. For e85 you need more fuel.

Its too technical to get into here but you can think of the molecules as creating more oxygen which is why you need to add more fuel.

Running 14.7:1 is actually lean for this fuel. Lean across an o2 will read as rich when you look at the sensor. You dont have enough oxygen to completely burn all the hydrocarbon (hc) in the combustion chamber. Learning how to work and read a 4 gas analyzer will help to understand this relationship. If you have a shop in the area with one it will really help you with your tune.

 

[enriquez2000]

I would quit running on e85. I would bet thats your problem. E85 is for flex fuel vehicles which these are not. The energy (btu) in e85 is less than gas, the ethanol is harder on seals and components, esp those that arent designed for it. It also changes the crossover point for an o2 sensor. All your equipment is calibrated to run on gas, not e85.

Yes i know about the popularity of e85 as a power adder for turbos. If you run it, you cant use 14.7:1 as stoichiometry. That value is for gas. For e85 you need more fuel.

Its too technical to get into here but you can think of the molecules as creating more oxygen which is why you need to add more fuel.

Running 14.7:1 is actually lean for this fuel. Lean across an o2 will read as rich when you look at the sensor. You dont have enough oxygen to completely burn all the hydrocarbon (hc) in the combustion chamber. Learning how to work and read a 4 gas analyzer will help to understand this relationship. If you have a shop in the area with one it will really help you with your tune.

I understand the general science behind it... but why does my 95 accord with stock lines o2 sensor handle e85 just fine and the dsm does not...

 

[kjlinwi]

It works because of the software in the pcm and the overengineering in the honda lamda sensor. The honda fuel trims will add enough fuel to keep the lamda sensor moving to create the crosscounts necessary for the engine to run and keep the cel off.

Youve essentially found the exception to the rule. But the rule still exists for a reason. Most cars wont get away with it. I cant tell you how many chevy trucks that ive had to pump e85 out of. They wont hardly run on it unless they are a ffv.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Hey did you change the setting in log works and save to the mtx controller for e85 use? If you didn't that's probably it. Your controller thinks your running pump gas and your not. look into it

 

[enriquez2000]

It works because of the software in the pcm and the overengineering in the honda lamda sensor. The honda fuel trims will add enough fuel to keep the lamda sensor moving to create the crosscounts necessary for the engine to run and keep the cel off.

Youve essentially found the exception to the rule. But the rule still exists for a reason. Most cars wont get away with it. I cant tell you how many chevy trucks that ive had to pump e85 out of. They wont hardly run on it unless they are a ffv.

But the plx gauge in my honda uses the same 4.2 bosch as the mtxl... the only thing controlling the o2 sensor is the uego device. Fuel trims might be handled better in the honda with hondata but that is going to be preference based off what car you like i believe.

Plenty of guys run e85 with dsm too without this issue.

 

[enriquez2000]

Hey did you change the setting in log works and save to the mtx controller for e85 use? If you didn't that's probably it. Your controller thinks your running pump gas and your not. look into it

Doesnt that just change the readout to different stoich? Worth a shot i guess to re-read

 

[Dsmkauai]

Not sure bro havnt tried it. But remember reading somewhere you have to change it in logworks for the fuel being used and save it to the controller.

 

[kjlinwi]

They run it on dsms with different stoichiometry. As your own experience has shown you, you need to run it richer to make it work.

Its when you try gas stoich with e85 that you run into trouble.

 

[bastarddsm]

The sensor reads lambda, and then converts it to gas afr for display. No matter what fuel you run, it will show 14.7 at stoich. Gas, ethanol, methanol, diesel fuel, propane. That is unless you change it to read different. The E85 isn't hurting the sensor, it's innovate not knowing how to control it.

 

[kjlinwi]

Actually the sensor uses air differences in the exhaust and atmosphere to create voltage. That voltage is read by whatever controller you have attached toit and interpreted and displayed in a format. If you want to know what the sensor reads, put a labscope on it.

You have to input into your controller what your fuel source is because the o2 crossover point is different for each. The controller will then shift its output to match the fuel source stoichiometry.

Whether e85 will damage components is another issue for another topic.

 

[bastarddsm]

Ok who are you? And what makes you think you have a clue what your talking about?

 

[kjlinwi]

I am an ASE Certified Master Mechanic for over 24 years. I am L1 and L2 Certified. I do this professionally. I trained with Kenny Duttweiler back in the early 90's on the Turbo Grand Nationals. I own my own shop and have two labscopes that I use on a regular basis. Im the go to shop for other shops in my area for driveability and performance problems that they cant figure out.

 

[bastarddsm]

Lol so being ASE certified gives you any clue on the inner workings of a wideband O2 sensor? sers.

Trained Kenny Duttweiler huh? If your on that level what are you doing here trying to educate us bottom-feeders?

What are these lab scopes that you speak of?

As far as your mostly incorrect post above..

Your speaking about a nernst cell. The Nernst cell is the foundation of the NB o2 sensor. It is essentially a galvanic cell. It produces a voltage output that is based on the concentration gradient of oxygen ions across the sample side and reference side of the sensor.

Now a wideband couples a Nernst cell with a pump cell. The pump cell pumps oxygen into, or out of the Nernst cell, based on the current into the pump cell, inside the controller a PID loop adjusts the current to keep the Nernst cell voltage right at the stoichiometric value of .5V

The pump cell current required to keep the Nernst cell at stoich, is a direct reflection of the air/fuel equivalence ratio, or lambda. The wideband controller converts this to an AFR.

As far as the sensors failing, it has to do with the rate that the sensors are heated up and cooled down. The ceramic elements in the sensor are subject to thermal shock. Heating it or cooling it to fast will damage it. Good controllers will monitor the temp of the sensor, and use a some sort of a controller to heat it at a rate that minimizes the thermal shock.

 

[Dsmkauai]

^^ this is why I mentioned making sure the setting in logworks is changed for the correct fuel being used. Exactly what I was reading and e8 code is exactly that, Sensor over-heating or over-cooling. It may be nothing but seems to make sense to me, and why they have the adjustments in logworks. I mean doesn't e85 burn much cooler than regular pump gas? Pretty sure it does. So maybe this is something the controller takes into account once set for e85? Idk

 

[bastarddsm]

No the flame temperature of the fuel has nothing to do with the exhaust gas temperature. It is a strong function of compression ratio, and "load", weak function of AFR and Timing, and an extremely weak function of fuel type / flame temp.

 

[Dsmkauai]

I'm refuring to the exaust temps not flame temps. "E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85." Quoted and this guys science backs this up.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...hot-cold-e85-vs-gas-theoretical-analysis.html

 

[enriquez2000]

Back to log works... i see no way to adjust other than to show different stoich. Lambda stays the same regardless... this means the switch point doesnt change.. unless someone else can show me otherwise...

 

[lasthope05]

Nothing has to be changed in log works. Link is already adjusted for the innovate controller and switch point can be directly changed in link also if doing nb sim.

Bastard is correct. All widebands read in lambda and show afr's based on what scale you are using in the controller. Stoich is stoich(1.00 lambda) no matter what fuel it is.

I dont understand why you dont switch out controllers between your honda instead of posting these threads about your constant sensor failures. Swap units and hard wire into the honda. If the sensor still fails, you'll know theres an issue with the controller. If it doesnt you'll know it was a wiring problem. Simple as that.

 

[enriquez2000]

Nothing has to be changed in log works. Link is already adjusted for the innovate controller and switch point can be directly changed in link also if doing nb sim.

Bastard is correct. All widebands read in lambda and show afr's based on what scale you are using in the controller. Stoich is stoich(1.00 lambda) no matter what fuel it is.

So then something in the innovate controller is causing my issue most likely

 

[bastarddsm]

I'm refuring to the exaust temps not flame temps. "E85 burns cooler than gas. It contains more oxygen, burns slower, and much cooler. EGTs drop by several hundred deg. with E85." Quoted and this guys science backs this up.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/277040-hot-cold-e85-vs-gas-theoretical-analysis.html

Ok that guys science it flawed. He falls into the category of reading a chemistry book, think your an expert. He's not.

Further more most of what you quoted is wrong, or just doesn't even make sense. Ethanol has similar laminar flame speeds to gasoline, but that's not even applicable to a SI engine.

"E85 burns cooler" What does that even mean?

If someone noticed a reduction in egt's it's because they are running it richer, and more timing... getting the combustion done early in the cycle, so that there's less waste heat in the exhaust.

So then something in the innovate controller is causing my issue most likely

I think I told you that about 2 weeks ago.

 

[enriquez2000]

I think I told you that about 2 weeks ago.

yet innovate still swears its my fault somehow... wish i had a plx to test out before dropping another 200 after wasting the money on innovate and all my stress

 

[Dsmkauai]

It's pretty simple to research and see, every place I look says the same. I'm not saying I know all and def don't. You really think you know everything in the world don't you . It clearly says the btu rating of ethenol is lower than gas. Which also makes the other guys science make sense.
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/E85Basics.html, http://hioctaneracing.com/blog/2011/7/3/the-truth-about-e85-fuel.html

 

[bastarddsm]

It sure does have less btu's, but I'm yet to see a single reliable source showing that "E85 burns much cooler than gas"

Nothing you've posted is a reliable source.
You realize I'm finishing a doctorate in combustion..That would make me an expert, but then again, it's not like I have been doing this and going pretty fast for a long time either..

OP, innovate isn't going to tell you there shit sucks.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Yup your so much older and wiser haha. What makes anything your saying validated? Writing a paper really means nothing. Like saying just cuz I'm ase certified I know all about automotive. You realize your alittle younger than me right and I've also been going fast for many years. Was crew for a 8000hp nhra drag team for years myself, worked on the motors and what not. And that's not even half of what's I've been doing. But I'm still learning things new everyday and can admit it!

 

[Mauispyder]

I love you both, let's not flame this thread!