I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

[Slippi84]

Marty quoted me at $219.95 per raxle.

Is that for race axles?

 

[turbosax2]

Yes.

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

19psi Pump Gas + Methonal on our shop Evo 9 here. Running the 2.5L taken out of our rally car after X-Games last year

Jeff

 

[Slippi84]

Yes.

driveshaft shop wants 1200 for stage 3's which are rated to 525 these things are pretty much bulletproof from talking to the guy at raxle with lifetime warranty that's nuts.

 

[Slippi84]

19psi Pump Gas + Methonal on our shop Evo 9 here. Running the 2.5L taken out of our rally car after X-Games last year

Jeff

Which turbo is that nice number for such little boost.

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

That is the T4 S366 - its a pretty crazy motor (2.5L custom crank, 10.5:1 compression pistons, etc - not the ideal motor for this turbo but we figured we had everything here might as well try it out) so we didnt crank the boost up yet - but it will probably see some race gas and 6-700hp pretty easily

The HP curve was still upward sloping at redline so this would be ideal for a 2.0/2.1L setup

Jeff

 

[Slippi84]

That is the T4 S366 - its a pretty crazy motor (2.5L custom crank, 10.5:1 compression pistons, etc - not the ideal motor for this turbo but we figured we had everything here might as well try it out) so we didnt crank the boost up yet - but it will probably see some race gas and 6-700hp pretty easily

The HP curve was still upward sloping at redline so this would be ideal for a 2.0/2.1L setup

Jeff

Oh ok I talked to you before about the high compression build. I was asking you about your borg setup and you said you couldn't get over 15psi with teh old setup is this what you stepped up to?

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

Yep - we had a t3 50 trim on the car (no meth) and on pump gas we made 395whp at 15psi and we couldnt get it to go any higher without knocking - sooooooooo the solution was methanol and a giant turbo

Jeff

 

[Slippi84]

Yep - we had a t3 50 trim on the car (no meth) and on pump gas we made 395whp at 15psi and we couldnt get it to go any higher without knocking - sooooooooo the solution was methanol and a giant turbo

Jeff

Yeah you were the reason I started looking into a little bigger turbo with meth because I def wasn't building another block and like you said you gotta work with what you got. Atleast you were stroker though I have to do it with a 2.0. Was 19psi your limit with meth? If so I might still be in trouble because I'm going hx40 and was going for more like 22psi

 

[Jeff@Slowboy]

Yes - but remember we are running almost 10.5:1 compression pistons - with normal pump gas on a 2.0L I dont see 22psi being an issue at all.

Sending you a PM about the HX40 setup

Jeff

 

[Slippi84]

Yes - but remember we are running almost 10.5:1 compression pistons - with normal pump gas on a 2.0L I dont see 22psi being an issue at all.

Sending you a PM about the HX40 setup

Jeff

I have 10:5:1 remember

I'll stop thread jackin now though. OP I didn't knwo stuff was that cheap all together I would go with what twick said then. Prices seem good and he knows the best out of us about which parts are good and which aren't.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

It's not theory. A manifold that does not separate pulses paired with a twinscroll turbo spools slow. The only purpose in running a twinscroll turbine is to keep the pulses separated. Tim runs a DNP Performance T04 Exhaust Manifold. I don't think he's telling you this just to discourage you. But just to warn you, if you're unhappy with the spool speed. And to say that it can be remedied.

It's theory until you try it, and then it becomes practice.

dsm-onster... since you're not talking theory, could you tell me about your experiance?
I know my partially divided manifold is not ideal, but how much is it going to help? How much is it going to hurt? Will a 90% divided turbo/manifold set-up, be better than having no division at all? Would mostly separated exhaust pulses help spool a turbo better than no separation of the exhaust pulses? Would a divided T4 manifold work better with a open T4 turbo, or would a open T4 manifold work better with a Divided turbo? Is the only purpose for running a twin scroll turbine to keep exhaust pulses separated, or are there any other benefits like faster exhaust velocity that might help spool?

I asked Steve93Talon if he was talking from experiance for fair reason (I don't know if "Tim" is the same guy as Steve93Talon or not). As a Wiseman you know there is alot of "talk" on tuners that is not back by experience. I have to protect myself from that kind of stuff, so thats why I asked if he was talking from experience. I appreciate any and all comments, but at the same time people shouldn't expect me to take every comment as law... especially if they have NO experience to back-up their talk. Thats fair enough right?

If either of you have some experiance that would help me.... I'd love to hear about it. I'm sure we all would. On the other hand we can talk about theory all week long, but real world numbers always seems to differ. Maybe we'll just have to wait and see what happens when I put all this theory into practice huh?

WHy upgrade to a bigger turbo and aim for the same power? Agreed that is about the limit of a stock block but hell gotta upgrade sooner or later try and break the stock block record if you been having that good of luck so far .

I think its safe to say I hit 500whp with the FP3065, but it wouldnt do that on 92oct pump gas. I want 500whp on 92oct pump gas.

I never thought about trying for the stock internal record. I'm not much for dyno racing. Dyno number can be fixed so easily its ridiculous. But it might be fun to "claim" I have top stock #'s

 

[jkimes]

NewTurboTuner,
Increasing volumetric efficiency by combining a divided turbine housing with a divided manifold to separate exhaust pulses is not theory, it is fact. You will see increased spool and power under the curve, better overall driveability, and your car should be less laggy and more fun to drive if you switch to a truly divided t4 mani. Talk to geoff at fullrace if you need undeniable proof but If I were you, I would sell the manifold you have now on e-bay or dsmtrader and take the few hundred bucks you make on it and buy a DNP or similar t4 divided mani for around 500 bucks. A couple hundred dollars is a very small price to pay for the performance increase you will get from the swap. As for Slippi giving you hell about your upgrades... it's really not his place or anyone elses to judge at what time you perform specific upgrades, It's your car.. do what you want. I'm sure your stock engine won't last too long with that turbo setup, but you might break the stock-internals power record in the process and when the time comes for an engine replacement you will have all the other supporting mods you need for a bad ass setup. As we say down here in Arkansas "If it aint broke, don't fix it!"

Yeah, if you end up going with a welded center differential, you will not need the viscous coupler; instead you will need the viscous coupler eliminator to hold the output shaft in place. Talk to Shep and discuss your options.

Approximate Pricing:
AEM EMS w/ sensors $1650
Raxles RACE axles $400
Fuel System $700 (injectors, fuel pumps and hoses/fittings/filter/wiring, etc)
Intercooler and custom piping $1200
Intake and Filter $170
Transmission $2800-3000 (Shep Stage 3 with REM or Cryo and welded diff)
Clutch $1150

----->$8270 subtotal.

Twicks, I know that you have suggested I switch from the dsmlink/maft setup to AEM in the past, and I realize that the AEM setup is better and that the GM MAS is a restriction, but like I mentioned before, people have run 8's with a dsmlink/maft setup in the past and I have already spent $700 on dsmlink and $250 on a wideband and I already own a 3.5" gm MAF, so I'm looking at $250 for a MAFT and couplers vs $1700 for the AEM setup. I just dont think I can afford to drop the extra cash for the AEM setup with my limited budget right now especially if my DSMlink setup will get me to my goal.

I already have custom 3" short route IC pipes and my dual fuel pump setup is done so I can scratch those items off the list. That leaves me needing a huge IC core, bigger injectors, a divided t4 mani, a Tial BOV, a Tial WG, a twin disk clutch kit, a huge turbo, intake and filter, raxles, a custom vband 02 eliminator downpipe and a tranny. Shep Quoted me $2600 for the stage 4 with REM and I can get a 4spider if I want it, but he recommended against it for some reason.

race IC core $???
1150 injectors $350
MAFT/couplers $250
DNP mani $550
Tial BOV $200
Tial 44mm WG $350
PTT clutch $1150
4088 $1700
intake + filter $170
raxles $400
Transmission $2600
Labor $1000
total... $8720

Unless I can find a nice efficient IC core for really cheap and do all of the labor myself I think I'm gonna be over budget, even without spending the extra $1,500 for an AEM setup

 

[Slippi84]

Twicks, I know that you have suggested I switch from the dsmlink/maft setup to AEM in the past, and I realize it is a restriction, but like I mentioned before, People have run 8's with a dsmlink/maft setup in the past and I have already spent $700 on dsmlink and $250 on a wideband and I already own a 3.5" gm MAF, so I'm looking at $250 for a MAFT and couplers vs $1700 for the AEM setup. I just dont know if I can justify dropping all the extra cash on my limited budget when the ecu I have can probably get me to my goals. If you really believe the maft will be that big of a restriction I guess I could sell my used dsmlink stuff, but I'm gonna take a big loss on it.

I already have custom 3" short route IC pipes and the dual fuel pumps are done, so It sounds like I need an IC core,bigger injectors, DNP t4 mani, Tial BOV, Tial WG, PTT clutch, gt4088, intake and filter, raxles, a custom vband 02 eliminator downpipe and a tranny. Shep Quoted me $2600 for the stage 4 with REM and I can get a 4spider if I want it, but he recommended against it for some reason. I think I'm over budget!

I too thought about doing that but everyone says it's overkill and you will induce more lag but I say #### it go for it. As for dsmlink being a restriction that's bs don't listen to anyone who says that. It may not be as anal as EMS when it comes to fine point tuning but you can get plent of power with a wideband dsmlink setup. If you need more than that get a 3bar map and calibrate dsmlink with that too and then log actual boost and a/f that way calibrating your maft setup won't be hard at all. EMS is better period. Dsmlink is plenty good though.

 

[Black_Bullet]

It's theory until you try it, and then it becomes practice.

dsm-onster... since you're not talking theory, could you tell me about your experiance?
I know my partially divided manifold is not ideal, but how much is it going to help? How much is it going to hurt? Will a 90% divided turbo/manifold set-up, be better than having no division at all? Would mostly separated exhaust pulses help spool a turbo better than no separation of the exhaust pulses? Would a divided T4 manifold work better with a open T4 turbo, or would a open T4 manifold work better with a Divided turbo? Is the only purpose for running a twin scroll turbine to keep exhaust pulses separated, or are there any other benefits like faster exhaust velocity that might help spool?

I asked Steve93Talon if he was talking from experiance for fair reason (I don't know if "Tim" is the same guy as Steve93Talon or not). As a Wiseman you know there is alot of "talk" on tuners that is not back by experience. I have to protect myself from that kind of stuff, so thats why I asked if he was talking from experience. I appreciate any and all comments, but at the same time people shouldn't expect me to take every comment as law... especially if they have NO experience to back-up their talk. Thats fair enough right?

If either of you have some experiance that would help me.... I'd love to hear about it. I'm sure we all would. On the other hand we can talk about theory all week long, but real world numbers always seems to differ. Maybe we'll just have to wait and see what happens when I put all this theory into practice huh?

Not speaking from experience, but running your exhaust seperate as possible and properly meeting is of course theoretically better and most of the stuff we do is based off theory, we dont never know what works right until its tried, and a little bit of common sense on top of that ! Thats how they come up with a lot of these custom manis used on some of the fastests setups...Side note will it help power/spool, how knows.. Should it, yea.
How much it matters is self defined, maybe to an perfectionist extent.


Slightly off topic, but still relevant.. From experience, my FP manifold helped in spool and power over my stock style cast manis so there are gains the more the exhaust is properly seperated and directed, ive even heard a wiseman compare it with the DNP tubular, though a lot of people still havent actually done any properly setup tests with proof of its benefits; yet the gains should be obvious in theory ....

I think its safe to say I hit 500whp with the FP3065, but it wouldnt do that on 92oct pump gas. I want 500whp on 92oct pump gas.

I never thought about trying for the stock internal record. I'm not much for dyno racing. Dyno number can be fixed so easily its ridiculous. But it might be fun to "claim" I have top stock #'s

Thats easy... 92 oct, meth injection

And I agree about the dyno part.

 

[jkimes]

Stop hijacking my thread people, he needs to buy a divided mani... end of story.

What's the cheapest high quality intercooler core that will support 700+ whp?
Can I stick with a cheap DSMlink/maft setup and still reach my goals or will I have to ditch it for an AEM to make 700+ with a 4088?
Anyone have dyno numbers from DSM's running an s370 or s374 ... anyone? ...anyone? .... Bueller? ....Bueller?

 

[dsm-onster]

Jkimes pretty much hit the nail on the head. Look at the difference between the evo3 16g and the evo8 16g if you're really curious about the proof. Otherwise, I'd jst take everyone's word for it on this one. Holset has been building divided housings for years and Cummins has been building true divided manifolds for years. There's nothing wrong with relying on oem research when it's a "new" design.

Axles -- contact Marty at Raxles ( Raxles - Raxles Home ) and tell him that you are looking at the same ones that Tim Zimmer has -- they are the Raxles RACE axles. You will be shocked how much less they are than the driveshaft shop, and they have a lifetime warranty against breaking -- they break or damage, replaced for free -- for life. Period.

Even for FWD .

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Stop hijacking my thread people, he needs to buy a divided mani... end of story.

What's the cheapest high quality intercooler core that will support 700+ whp?
Can I stick with a cheap DSMlink/maft setup and still reach my goals or will I have to ditch it for an AEM to make 700+ with a 4088?
Anyone have dyno numbers from DSM's running an s370 or s374 ... anyone? ...anyone? .... Bueller? ....Bueller?

I've seen a 2.3L with T67 + DSMlink + GMMAF @ 550-600whp.
If you really want 700whp, you're going to have to go AEM. No doubt about it.
The amount of options that AEM has over DSMlink is tremendous. You love it

 

[Slippi84]

I've seen a 2.3L with T67 + DSMlink + GMMAF @ 550-600whp.
If you really want 700whp, you're going to have to go AEM. No doubt about it.
The amount of options that AEM has over DSMlink is tremendous. You love it

Like what name some ?

 

[Steve93Talon]

I've seen a 2.3L with T67 + DSMlink + GMMAF @ 550-600whp.
If you really want 700whp, you're going to have to go AEM. No doubt about it.
The amount of options that AEM has over DSMlink is tremendous. You love it

Oh really? I guess ya better tell the guy making 730whp on a Mustang dyno with DSMlink then...

http://www.jeffgst.com/mattdyno.wmv

Or the guy who's gone 8.47 @ 169 on DSMlink. Or the countless others in the 9s with it.

 

[Slippi84]

Oh really? I guess ya better tell the guy making 730whp on a Mustang dyno with DSMlink then...

http://www.jeffgst.com/mattdyno.wmv

Or the guy who's gone 8.47 @ 169 on DSMlink. Or the countless others in the 9s with it.

I was trying not to be a dick when I asked you to name some but I see steve said what I was thinking without watering it down I second the

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Like what name some ?

"Like what"? ....you're really letting your light shine huh?
How about like everything ....Thats what AEM does

Oh really? I guess ya better tell the guy making 730whp on a Mustang dyno with DSMlink then...

http://www.jeffgst.com/mattdyno.wmv

Or the guy who's gone 8.47 @ 169 on DSMlink. Or the countless others in the 9s with it.

What should I tell him then..... Steve? You seem to know it all. Why don't you tell him whatever the heck you were thinking about ....I sure don't know

I was trying not to be a dick when I asked you to name some but I see steve said what I was thinking without watering it down I second the

So let me get this strait.... Instead of "trying not to be a dick", you decided to go ahead and be a dick, because Steve93Talon said what you were thinking (dick thoughts), and you didnt want him to be the only dick, so you 2nd his dick-ness?

I'll tell you what I give a too..... I give a to jerkoffs that can't give their honest opinion, without bashing others people opinion .....It's pathetic

No siht there are cars using DSMlink that go fast ...So what?
There are DSM using EVO3 16g that goes 10's, but does that mean that a 16g is the best for 10's? .....no

 

[unlmtdndeavor]

I feel like chiming in, since I just purchased an s374 and will be getting the setup together in the next month or so.

I ran dsmlink prior to switching over to aem. Is it a capable setup? Yes. Is it a cheap setup? Yes. Have people gone fast on it? Yes. Does that make it the best? No. Is it ideal? No.

Yes you can go fast on dsmlink. You can also go fast by editing the hex in the stock ecu and burning chips. There are plenty of options out there, heck, they're running 8's on the 3000gt's with a piggy back and no timing control. But there are more efficient ways of doing things. If you need to know any of the options that AEM has over dsmlink, I suggest you download the software and poke around. You will quickly see how much more control you have over every single little detail of your engine control.

I am new to AEM, and am by no means an expert, but with the little tuning that I did do with it, I picked up a lot of low/mid range power compared to dsmlink. The ability to tune the car in the lower rpm band, custom accel/decel maps, boost control, nitrous control, 10 seperate injector controls, etc etc. And to go into a bit more detail, say nitrous control. DSMLink allows for you to control when it comes on and off, speed, and timing. So does AEM, but AEM also allows for you to build a full 3-d map for when nitrous is on. Selectable with just a switch wired from the ecu. You can control the solenoids individually if you want. The user is able to turn a standard nitrous kit into a full progressive system if they so wish, rather than just the on/off feature of the dsmlink.

Yes dsmlink can support the power, is it ideal, no. So I agree with NewTurboTuner, go with AEM and you'll never look back.

 

[Slippi84]

"Like what"? ....you're really letting your light shine huh?
How about like everything ....Thats what AEM does


What should I tell him then..... Steve? You seem to know it all. Why don't you tell him whatever the heck you were thinking about ....I sure don't know



So let me get this strait.... Instead of "trying not to be a dick", you decided to go ahead and be a dick, because Steve93Talon said what you were thinking (dick thoughts), and you didnt want him to be the only dick, so you 2nd his dick-ness?

I'll tell you what I give a too..... I give a to jerkoffs that can't give their honest opinion, without bashing others people opinion .....It's pathetic

No siht there are cars using DSMlink that go fast ...So what?
There are DSM using EVO3 16g that goes 10's, but does that mean that a 16g is the best for 10's? .....no

I see you tried to go searching to post in my otehr thread and got it deleted I suspect the same here as your showing your true colors but to answer your post here comparing going 10's with a 16g and dsmlink making power is rediculous. There isn't a whole forum full of people going fast with 16g's. I don't knwo if you knew this but I did not always own a 420a. I am a active dsmlink fourm member as I used to run it on my STOCK BLOCK 90 tsi with gt14 dsmlink caps smim fmic all that good jazz but even if I didn't have first hand experience with dsmlink all you have to do is search.

unlmtdndeavor your right about EMS being better but you keep bringing up nitrous as a reason why its' better no one said anything about nitrous. How much power did you pick up in your low range area? I'm not saying your not a good tuner but plenty of people have seen very minimal gains from going to ems so maybe you just needed someone with more dsmlink experience give it a hack on your car.

In a nut shell NewTurboTuner is talking out his ass, AEM is better than dsmlink but not needed, and really none of us should even still be posting about how to make 700whp cause most of us haven't done it. Twick came on said his peace the OP has his info let it go.

 

[unlmtdndeavor]

unlmtdndeavor your right about EMS being better but you keep bringing up nitrous as a reason why its' better no one said anything about nitrous. How much power did you pick up in your low range area? I'm not saying your not a good tuner but plenty of people have seen very minimal gains from going to ems so maybe you just needed someone with more dsmlink experience give it a hack on your car.

Oh, I didn't mean for it to sound like nitrous was the reason to go from DSMLink to AEM. I was just using that as an example to the amount of detail you can get into with AEM. It goes the same for every other control that AEM has, be it fuel, ignition, boost, etc.

The gains I picked up were about 30whp in the 3-5k range. It was just more so the ability to fine tune the lower rpm band as well as the knock definition with AEM. I'll admit, I am not the best tuner, but I very capable.

I guess since I haven't finished my setup, I won't post about making big power until the end of summer. I'm excited to see how this S374 will compare to my buddy's 42r evo.