I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

[twicks69]

That is just nuts

If you don't mind me asking do you do your own tuning because that seems like some VERY good results both pump gas and race gas. You have the best of both worlds 50trim like spool and big turbo power.

The tuning was done by myself and Luke Stubbs of Beyond Redline Performance on his dyno using AEM EMS and an AWD DynoJet with dual eddy current/weather station/WB O2 setup. Essentially, I put together the map, then we tweeked it together on the dyno. Either way, Luke really knows his stuff and he is the reason I know as much as I do about it.

 

[Slippi84]

The tuning was done by myself and Luke Stubbs of Beyond Redline Performance on his dyno using AEM EMS and an AWD DynoJet with dual eddy current/weather station/WB O2 setup. Essentially, I put together the map, then we tweeked it together on the dyno. Either way, Luke really knows his stuff and he is the reason I know as much as I do about it.

Yeah when my project is finally done I'm gonna have nate tune it for me because from what I have seen the most important mod is seat time on the dyno with the right guy.

A big thing I notice to the OP do you have the block built to take such high boost levels like twick? He's looking to run 50 psi soon I have no experience with that kinda boost but I bet it takes oringed block plus a coupld other tricks to keep the head from lifting.

 

[jkimes]

Well, if he is reccomending against the 4-spider, then Shep should use the hardened chromoly cross-shaft with additional oiling grooves; designed, manufactured and sold by Luke Stubbs of Beyond Redline Performance ( Beyond Redline :: Performance Center )- - It is the only one I haven't broken over the years. It has lasted 4 or 5 transmissions, and every time it is taken apart, there is no excessive wear, no discoloration due to heat, and no damage. Great Part! Just talk to Luke, and he can send Shep a cross-shaft if you want to put it in. The only other alternative is a spool or a Quaife; and I would stay away from the spool. Mine just lasted 3 dyno pulls and 20 street miles before having issues -- along with having even crappier turning radius.

So basically your saying that with 700+whp unless you have a dogbox your tranny is gonna break every few weeks? That sucks. I'm not a great mechanic, so I don't enjoy pulling out my transmission constantly and I certainly don't wanna spend 7k on a dogbox transmission that I would probably hate driving on the street.

 

[Slippi84]

So basically your saying that with 700+whp unless you have a dogbox your tranny is gonna break every few weeks? That sucks. I'm not a great mechanic, so I don't enjoy pulling out my transmission constantly and I certainly don't wanna spend 7k on a dogbox transmission that I would probably hate driving on the street. Maybe black95awd was right with his negative comments after all.

If you can do it and it's a weekend car #### it go for it but to be honest he's right why have a 600whp car to go to shopright??? Unless you plan on racing street bikes and supras on the highway on the way there . But like I said if it's not a everyday car and you can #### it do it.

I would get a dogbox racing transmission not a dogbox liek your thinking. ALex has gone about as fast as twick and it's only like 1500

 

[1fastlaser]

acually alex has been 9.0s i think 8.9s undocumented. His current full dogbox trans hes building runs about 2500 or so. He designed it himself and they are helical cut dogbox syncroless. Check them out Welcome to Dog Box Racing!. Im getting mine

 

[jkimes]

Have any of you actually driven a car with a dogbox synchroless tranny? My car is a weekend warrior, so I can probably deal with it, especially if a dogbox is gonna be extremely more reliable than a stage 4 shep tranny, but everything I have read says that a dogbox is a pita to drive on the street.

 

[Slippi84]

Have any of you actually driven a car with a dogbox synchroless tranny? My car is a weekend warrior, so I can probably deal with it, especially if a dogbox is gonna be extremely more reliable than a stage 4 shep tranny, but everything I have read says that a dogbox is a pita to drive on the street.

Not a dobox dogboxracing.com built trans They're a NJ based company who specialize in DSM's

 

[jkimes]

Not a dobox dogboxracing.com built trans They're a NJ based company who specialize in DSM's

I understand that you are referring to dogbox racing, but i'm also talking about using a transmission with dog cut gears and no sychros, which are sold by shep, dogboxracing, and magnus. A dogbox should mean much higher reliablity to support the extreme horsepower that a 4088 or an s374 can put down, but at the expense of driveability on the street being a major PITA and I'm not sure If I wanna deal with that or not. Of course I also don't want to deal with pulling out my transmission every few weeks for a rebuild like Twicks does, so I may not have a choice.

A big thing I notice to the OP do you have the block built to take such high boost levels like twick? He's looking to run 50 psi soon I have no experience with that kinda boost but I bet it takes oringed block plus a coupld other tricks to keep the head from lifting.

My 2.4 block and internals are built like a brick sh#@house so the bottom end should handle anything I can throw at it, but Im using a stock 2g head with fp3 cams and fp dual springs so I may need to switch to a Bushur stage 3 head and have my deck o-ringed to handle 40+ psi of boost. Does anyone know what the most economical option for a head upgrade would be? Bushur wants $1,600 for a stage 3 head.

 

[twicks69]

Have any of you actually driven a car with a dogbox synchroless tranny? My car is a weekend warrior, so I can probably deal with it, especially if a dogbox is gonna be extremely more reliable than a stage 4 shep tranny, but everything I have read says that a dogbox is a pita to drive on the street.

I have driven a 1G with a PPG (Shep) dogbox with the center diff spool and LSD front diff, also using a 7.25" Quartermaster clutch before. I enjoyed it, but it is not a street car transmission -- if you want it, then you will deal with the noise, and fast shifting into gears to prevent wear on the dog rings.

You have to remember, it isn't just about buying a transmission; you still have to purchse the options, differentials, driveshaft, transfer case upgrade, and input shaft upgrade along with axles. That prevents the problem from occurring somewhere else down the road. It isn't cheap. -- Expect $12-15K.

Finally, the dogbox may be a much stronger transmission, but it is not an "end all-be all" transmission. It will need more maintenence and refreshers throughout its lifetime, and they aren't cheap either.

The other option vs. Shep (PPG), is Marco's dogmission from Magnus Motorsports. It is cheaper, but you give up some of the options. Either way, both are very nice gearsets.

 

[twicks69]

My 2.4 block and internals are built like a brick sh#@house so the bottom end should handle anything I can throw at it, but Im using a stock 2g head with fp3 cams and fp dual springs so I may need to switch to a Bushur stage 3 head and have my deck o-ringed to handle 40+ psi of boost. Does anyone know what the most economical option for a head upgrade would be? Bushur wants $1,600 for a stage 3 head.

I was running a stock 1G head for the longest time (just swapped heads in May when I trashed my old one) with just Crower single springs and titanium retainers, HKS 272/272 cams and ARP head studs with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket. The head was unported with stock sized stainless steel valves.

Now I am running ARP L19 Head studs, a Mitsu MLS head gasket, a new 1G head with 1mm oversize valves, Supertech dual valve springs and titanium retainers, no porting, and HKS 288/288 cams.

Both heads had no problems with holding 49psi; my first head just got so worn out; the springs were less than 40 for spring pressure, causing them to valve float due to boost and trashed the head. The head studs were also 4 years old, and the cylinder head was 5-years old (valves, springs, retainers, guides, lifters, etc.)

 

[Slippi84]

I'm not sure who told you about the Dogboxracing tranmissions not being streetable because everyone I know with one drives their car on the street. I"m not gonna give you a sales pitch but it's worth calling them up and asking them about what they do and how they perform. Besides you have to kina be reasonble you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want crazy hp your gonna have to do crazy things. Porting your head and oversized valves are overkill your head will be fine just get your block oringed because I have seen people push coolant at 28psi forget 40. Like twick said it's not just the trans and no trans is bulitproof you have to have the other drivetrain stuff supporting it. Believe it or not suspension is actually a bettermod for helping trans stay alive than people think.

 

[gsxtasy]

I'm not sure who told you about the Dogboxracing tranmissions not being streetable because everyone I know with one drives their car on the street. I"m not gonna give you a sales pitch but it's worth calling them up and asking them about what they do and how they perform. Besides you have to kina be reasonble you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want crazy hp your gonna have to do crazy things. Porting your head and oversized valves are overkill your head will be fine just get your block oringed because I have seen people push coolant at 28psi forget 40. Like twick said it's not just the trans and no trans is bulitproof you have to have the other drivetrain stuff supporting it. Believe it or not suspension is actually a bettermod for helping trans stay alive than people think.

Again, they aren't talking about the company "dogboxracing's" transmissions specifically. There are transmissions that are built by the other company's(shep, magnus, etc...) that are called dogbox's, they are supposed to hold the most power, they are built for drag racing, not street driving.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Hey jkimes
Did you decide which turbo you're going to buy when you upgrade?

My goals are similar to yours. 500whp on pump 92, and 650-700whp on Race gas.

My choice was also between the GT40R, & the divided T4 37R. I ordered a 4088R last week. I'm going to run it on a HKS Divided T4 Manifold.

I see you have a 2.4L ....that'll defiantly help with your goal, especially in that hot AR weather. I'm going to stick with 2.0L for now. I'm still running stock internal so it'll be interesting to see how the GT40R will perform. I'm fairly certain I'll get 450-500whp on pump92 if everything holds up.


p.s.
How is the DSM scene down in AR? Are they sleeper, or do people know that Eclipse/Talon can be fast? I'll be moving back down to AR in the next year or two. My home town is Russellville.

 

[Steve93Talon]

My choice was also between the GT40R, & the divided T4 37R. I ordered a 4088R last week. I'm going to run it on a HKS Divided T4 Manifold.

FYI, spool up and efficiency will suffer when using the HKS manifold on a divided turbine housing. The reason is that the manifold isn't truly divided. The divider doesn't come flush with the flange, it's recessed about 1/4". The OnGreen/InlinePro/SBR knock-offs are fully divided, but bear in mind that the gate placement is less than ideal and also merges pulses from both halves of the collector which could affect efficiency as compared to a truly divided setup.

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[NewTurboTuner]

FYI, spool up and efficiency will suffer when using the HKS manifold on a divided turbine housing. The reason is that the manifold isn't truly divided. The divider doesn't come flush with the flange, it's recessed about 1/4". The OnGreen/InlinePro/SBR knock-offs are fully divided, but bear in mind that the gate placement is less than ideal and also merges pulses from both halves of the collector which could affect efficiency as compared to a truly divided setup.

Yeah I know its not 100% divided.

When you says..... "FYI, spool up and efficiency will suffer when using the HKS manifold on a divided turbine housing" .....do you have experience with this, or are you giving us theoretical assumption?

I'll just have to see what happens. If going to undivided T4 housing makes the turbo spool faster then thats what I'll do. I'm also pondering a fix to make the HKS mani 100% divided T4. I might see if it's possible to weld a piece of 3/8 thick metal wall, and then resurface the flange to make it 100% divided. I don't know... Maybe it won't matter much anyways? Shep ran his HKS mani into the 9's. I don't plan to go that fast.

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As far as the WG port goes....
If it wasnt for that last little bit of material to make the T4 flange 100% divided ...the waste gate housing would be 100% divided too (but with 1 waste gate). Personally, I feel that running a single wastegate won't hinder performance at all. Of course I don't have any experience with it either, but Evil_Eagle does. He runs a single WG on his Shearer top mount, and he's running 8's I think.

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[jkimes]

I was running a stock 1G head for the longest time (just swapped heads in May when I trashed my old one) with just Crower single springs and titanium retainers, HKS 272/272 cams and ARP head studs with a Mitsubishi MLS head gasket. The head was unported with stock sized stainless steel valves.

Now I am running ARP L19 Head studs, a Mitsu MLS head gasket, a new 1G head with 1mm oversize valves, Supertech dual valve springs and titanium retainers, no porting, and HKS 288/288 cams.

Both heads had no problems with holding 49psi; my first head just got so worn out; the springs were less than 40 for spring pressure, causing them to valve float due to boost and trashed the head. The head studs were also 4 years old, and the cylinder head was 5-years old (valves, springs, retainers, guides, lifters, etc.)

Twicks, I really appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. You rock. Thanks to the rest of you for giving your answers and opinions as well. Twicks, were those numbers you posted made with the newer head with 288s or the old head w 272s? My 2g head is unported and has not had a valve job, however, it has been hot tanked and has all new factory size valves and fp3 cams as well as a new set of fp dual valve springs and retainers. I had originally planned to buy a new cylinder head or have a valve job and port work done to my current head as one of my last mods, but the shop that is tuning my car right now is telling me I should have a valve job and port work done before I bother with any other upgrades (turbo, manifold etc..) because they say "the upgraded head is where you will make all your power". Do you guys think I should stick with the head I have or upgrade? Also, my engine is not o-ringed, but it does have arp head studs and a cometic HG. Is o-ringing and using an MLS HG necessary to push 40+psi, and if so can it be done without me having to pull the engine again? I have about 9k that I can spend on the car right now, and by the time I upgrade the turbo, maft, axles, injectors, a bigger intercooler, transmission, differential, misc drivetrain parts, a little bit of labor, and a clutch, I don't know If I'll have enough money left for a head upgrade. What should I spend my money on with my limited budget?

 

[jkimes]

Hey jkimes
Did you decide which turbo you're going to buy when you upgrade?

My goals are similar to yours. 500whp on pump 92, and 650-700whp on Race gas.

My choice was also between the GT40R, & the divided T4 37R. I ordered a 4088R last week. I'm going to run it on a HKS Divided T4 Manifold.

I see you have a 2.4L ....that'll defiantly help with your goal, especially in that hot AR weather. I'm going to stick with 2.0L for now. I'm still running stock internal so it'll be interesting to see how the GT40R will perform. I'm fairly certain I'll get 450-500whp on pump92 if everything holds up.


p.s.
How is the DSM scene down in AR? Are they sleeper, or do people know that Eclipse/Talon can be fast? I'll be moving back down to AR in the next year or two. My home town is Russellville.

Right on Brother, good to know I'm not the only redneck around here born and raised in Arkansas. I grew up in Harrison and lived in Russellville for about 6 months after high school. My sister went to school at Tech. It sucked having to drive 2 Blackwell to get beer, but other than that Russellville wasn't too bad. People in Arkansas (and Missouri too for that matter) seem to think your car is automatically slow unless it's a vette , a camaro, or a mustang, but they shut up pretty quick after you kick their ass with a 4-banger. Your a brave man to use such a wicked turbo setup on stock internals, I'll be very surprised if your engine stays together for long with a 4088, but at least you will have an excuse to go all-out if it blows up. Even on pump gas you should be able to squeeze out 450+ hp. Let us know what kind of power you make once you get her back together.

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Yeah that whole Dry County thing is a hoot

A built motor is what I really need, but since my stock rebuild keeps going strong, I keep buying supporting mods for the future. I'm kinda interested to see how long it'll hold up. I ran my FP3065 daily at 23-24psi on 94oct gas. It made around 430whp, and I trapped 126mph in the 1/4 like that. Later it went 130mph at 28psi with race gas. <-Thats gotta be 500whp dontcha think?

If I can get 450-500whp on pump92 with the 4088R ...that'll keep me happy for awhile until I get a motor built.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yeah I know its not 100% divided.

When you says..... "FYI, spool up and efficiency will suffer when using the HKS manifold on a divided turbine housing" .....do you have experience with this, or are you giving us theoretical assumption?

It's not theory. A manifold that does not separate pulses paired with a twinscroll turbo spools slow. The only purpose in running a twinscroll turbine is to keep the pulses separated. Tim runs a DNP Performance T04 Exhaust Manifold. I don't think he's telling you this just to discourage you. But just to warn you, if you're unhappy with the spool speed. And to say that it can be remedied.

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah that whole Dry County thing is a hoot

A built motor is what I really need, but since my stock rebuild keeps going strong, I keep buying supporting mods for the future. I'm kinda interested to see how long it'll hold up. I ran my FP3065 daily at 23-24psi on 94oct gas. It made around 430whp, and I trapped 126mph in the 1/4 like that. Later it went 130mph at 28psi with race gas. <-Thats gotta be 500whp dontcha think?

If I can get 450-500whp on pump92 with the 4088R ...that'll keep me happy for awhile until I get a motor built.

WHy upgrade to a bigger turbo and aim for the same power? Agreed that is about the limit of a stock block but hell gotta upgrade sooner or later try and break the stock block record if you been having that good of luck so far .

OP you greatly underplay your head. You keep saying its' mostly stock with oversized valves and porting your fully built. Take the head off get the block oringed and get teh head ported slap her back on with a new MLS HG and call it a day. I say this with a risk of people getting into a uproar and saying NO NEVER ON THE STREET but after riding in 3 diffrent cars with it drivetrain wise I would get stage 5 axles built trans with.....welded center diff and twin disk clutch and call it day. Like I said before gety a good set of coilovers with adjustable dampners and you should be set.

 

[twicks69]

Twicks, I really appreciate your willingness to answer my questions. You rock. Thanks to the rest of you for giving your answers and opinions as well. Twicks, have you had your car dynoed again after the new head and cam setup or were those numbers you posted with your old stockish head setup? If so, did you see a huge performance increase from the head upgrade? My 2g head Is basically stock, it has been hot tanked and has all new factory size valves and fp3 cams as well as a new set of fp dual valve springs and retainers. I had originally planned to do a head upgrade as one of my last mods, but the shop that is tuning my car right now keeps telling me to have headwork done first (valve job and porting or buy a new one) in order to see the most noticeable power from my upgrades. Do you think I should stick with the head I have or upgrade? Also, my engine is not o-ringed, but it does have arp head studs and a cometic HG. Is o-ringing and using an MLS HG necessary to make 500whp on pump and 700whp on c16 and if so can it be done without me having to pull the engine again? I have about 9k that I can spend on the car right now, and by the time I upgrade the turbo, maft, axles, injectors, a bigger intercooler, transmission, differential, misc drivetrain parts, a little bit of labor, and a clutch, I don't know If I'll have enough money left for a head upgrade. What should I spend my money on with my limited budget?

Just so you all know, I described my cylinder head in a previous post. I did not say anything about O-ringing the head or block -- I am not running an O-ringed head/or block setup -- Just good ole ARP L19 Head studs and a Mitsu MLS gasket (not copper-sprayed). Nothing special; seals 50psi just fine. Just perfectly flat surfaces on the head and block.

Stay away from MAFT -- you will be better off running AEM EMS with a 5-bar MAP sensor and an AIT sensor. This is a much better investment.

Axles -- contact Marty at Raxles ( Raxles - Raxles Home ) and tell him that you are looking at the same ones that Tim Zimmer has -- they are the Raxles RACE axles. You will be shocked how much less they are than the driveshaft shop, and they have a lifetime warranty against breaking -- they break or damage, replaced for free -- for life. Period.

Injectors -- You will need 1000cc injectors and dual fuel pumps (255HP in the tank, and a 255HP in-line) with -6AN feed line to the rail with an in-line filter, and a hardwire kit using a 5-prong relay with two signal prongs on it. Use 8-gauge power wire from the battery back to the relay, and a 8-gauge ground for the relay. Use 10-gauge from the relay to each fuel pump, with in-line 30-amp fuses on each pump power line. I also used a 60A in-line fuse at the 8-gauge wire by the battery. The stock fuel rail has no problems in this combination.

Intercooler -- Precision Turbo and Engine (PTE) large air-to-air intercooler core with 2.5" intercooler pipes will be plenty.

Intake -- Forced Performance Cast aluminum 4" intake pipe with large K&N filter.

Transmission -- you will want a good 4-spider center diff. Screw welding it if it is a street car, it will bind up alot and only make the car less enjoyable to drive. If possible, use a new viscous coupler, and a Quaife front differerntial. Also be sure to have a heavy duty 3/4 gearset (Early 1992 parts), and a late model input shaft and intermediate shaft (95-99-spec).

Clutch -- Quarter Master twin disk from Adam at DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO .

Start with these, and get some numbers on how much it is going to cost you.

 

[Slippi84]

Just so you all know, I described my cylinder head in a previous post. I did not say anything about O-ringing the head or block -- I am not running an O-ringed head/or block setup -- Just good ole ARP L19 Head studs and a Mitsu MLS gasket (not copper-sprayed). Nothing special; seals 50psi just fine. Just perfectly flat surfaces on the head and block.

Stay away from MAFT -- you will be better off running AEM EMS with a 5-bar MAP sensor and an AIT sensor. This is a much better investment.

Axles -- contact Marty at Raxles ( Raxles - Raxles Home ) and tell him that you are looking at the same ones that Tim Zimmer has -- they are the Raxles RACE axles. You will be shocked how much less they are than the driveshaft shop, and they have a lifetime warranty against breaking -- they break or damage, replaced for free -- for life. Period.

Injectors -- You will need 1000cc injectors and dual fuel pumps (255HP in the tank, and a 255HP in-line) with -6AN feed line to the rail with an in-line filter, and a hardwire kit using a 5-prong relay with two signal prongs on it. Use 8-gauge power wire from the battery back to the relay, and a 8-gauge ground for the relay. Use 10-gauge from the relay to each fuel pump, with in-line 30-amp fuses on each pump power line. I also used a 60A in-line fuse at the 8-gauge wire by the battery. The stock fuel rail has no problems in this combination.

Intercooler -- Precision Turbo and Engine (PTE) large air-to-air intercooler core with 2.5" intercooler pipes will be plenty.

Intake -- Forced Performance Cast aluminum 4" intake pipe with large K&N filter.

Transmission -- you will want a good 4-spider center diff. Screw welding it if it is a street car, it will bind up alot and only make the car less enjoyable to drive. If possible, use a new viscous coupler, and a Quaife front differerntial. Also be sure to have a heavy duty 3/4 gearset (Early 1992 parts), and a late model input shaft and intermediate shaft (95-99-spec).
Clutch -- Quarter Master twin disk from Adam at DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO .

Start with these, and get some numbers on how much it is going to cost you.

True but he made it seem like he was on a budget and welding is obviously a lot cheaper and is pretty much unbreakable. The only thing is it's not super street friendly but it can be street driven. And with raxle race shafts you own't have to worry about the shafts going.

By the way I called them and they don't make them for the non turbo's DAM!!

 

[twicks69]

True but he made it seem like he was on a budget and welding is obviously a lot cheaper and is pretty much unbreakable. The only thing is it's not super street friendly but it can be street driven. And with raxle race shafts you own't have to worry about the shafts going.

Yeah, if you end up going with a welded center differential, you will not need the viscous coupler; instead you will need the viscous coupler eliminator to hold the output shaft in place. Talk to Shep and discuss your options.

Approximate Pricing:
AEM EMS w/ sensors $1650
Raxles RACE axles $400
Fuel System $700 (injectors, fuel pumps and hoses/fittings/filter/wiring, etc)
Intercooler and custom piping $1200
Intake and Filter $170
Transmission $2800-3000 (Shep Stage 3 with REM or Cryo and welded diff)
Clutch $1150

----->$8270 subtotal.

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah, if you end up going with a welded center differential, you will not need the viscous coupler; instead you will need the viscous coupler eliminator to hold the output shaft in place. Talk to Shep and discuss your options.

Approximate Pricing:
AEM EMS w/ sensors $1650
Raxles RACE axles $400
Fuel System $700 (injectors, fuel pumps and hoses/fittings/filter/wiring, etc)
Intercooler and custom piping $1200
Intake and Filter $170
Transmission $2800-3000 (Shep Stage 3 with REM or Cryo and welded diff)
Clutch $1150

----->$8270 subtotal.

WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF Please tell me that's per axle so I won't feel too bad

 

[turbosax2]

Marty quoted me at $219.95 per raxle.