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I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

Posted by jkimes, Jun 3, 2008

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  1. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

    240
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    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    I almost jumped on the bandwagon a few months ago and bought an open tang hta35r, but the more I researched the more I realized that twinscroll turbos should have better spool, volumetric efficiency, and part throttle response and still make great top end power so I kept searching. I know I want a a turbo with a divided t4 hotside and a v-band discharge with good street manners and around 500whp on pump and 700+whp on c16. Everything I have read on multiple forums suggests that a 4088r will outspool a 35r and make more power, so I thought I had finally made up my mind about which turbo I wanted... until I read this;

    Borg Warner S374 vs GT4088R Comparison Dyno Graphs - FreshAlloy.com Forums

    It looks like the BW374 turbo is non bb, and much larger than the 4088 and was also running a little larger hotside and only 2 more pounds of boost but spooled just as fast and made alot more power. WTF

    Apparently the ETT series Borg Warner turbos are the cat's pajamas but there don't seem to be that many people using them yet on DSM's. Does anyone have dyno numbers for any of the Borg Warner turbos like the BW366 or 370 on a 2.3 or 2.4 liter engine? Also, I have always read that ball bearing turbo's are more reliable and have much better transient resonse than thrust bearing models. If this is the case, why does Borg Warner seem to use thrust bearings exclusively?
     

    691  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  2. Steve93Talon

    Steve93Talon Proven Member

    1,451
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    Joined Jan 20, 2005
    Philly Burbs, Pennsylvania
    Plenty of people are running them and going fast on them (Rau runs one)

    A guy just ran 9.9 @ 149 on an S366:

    Bullseye Power Forums :: View topic - Thanks Bullseye!! S366 in my 1993 Mitsu went 9.91@149

    another one:

    Bullseye Power Forums :: View topic - S366 on E85 goes 145mph

    and Carl at GVautosport, good friend of mine and supporting vendor on here. Give him a call if you decide to get one:

    Bullseye Power Forums :: View topic - S366 on 1g DSM --> 10.56@139.98

    I'm almost finished helping Tort with his S362 divided T3 setup, it should spool like crazy and make 650-675whp. Gonna be a fun ride. The manifold we're using is a GVautosport exclusive, made by JMFab. There's a group buy on it right now:

    http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/ven...roup-buy-gvautosport-divided-t3-manifold.html
     

    Drag Race Build 1K  24

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    369.5 whp · 403.2 lb/ft · 1G DSM

    2K  7

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi
    11.784 @ 115.120 · 1G DSM
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  3. prostreetdsmx1

    prostreetdsmx1 Proven Member

    1,462
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    Joined Sep 29, 2002
    Altamonte, Florida
    yup yup, the borg warner turbos are really showing their true colors and kicking ass!
     

    467  0

    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.100 @ 104.100 · 2G DSM
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  4. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

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    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    I'm kinda partial to the relatively low price (DNP is only $575) and v-band output of a divided t4 setup, not to mention the larger selection of "off-the-shelf" turbos available with twin-scroll t4 turbine housings that can make big power. That divided T3 mani does look nice though. You should definitley post your results once you finish that s362 setup, i'm really curious how much power it will make. I noticed a while ago that Rau runs a Borg Warner turbo. Of course, his car is also very light weight, runs 6.9 ET's, has been tubbed out and converted to RWD, and is a strickly track-only dragster. Not exactly a comparable setup to most people on this forum who have heavy street cars that make occasional trips to road race, autocross, or drag race. I've heard that alot of Honda guys are running BW turbo's and making big power. However, if you compare the number of DSMers who run garrett snails vs Borg Warner setups, the BW's are very rare. I want to know what driveability and durability is like using a s366 or s370 turbo vs an hta35r or a 4088r. Does anyone have dyno charts showing power under the curve or have testimonials after driving a DSM with these Borg Warner turbo's?
     

    691  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  5. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

    4,113
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    Joined Jun 8, 2005
    Cinnaminson, New Jersey

    WHat .ar is the divided t3 for the s362:confused: I was looking at the .70ar t3 v-bad I thought that was the best overall spool power hook up for the s362 personally.
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  6. unlmtdndeavor

    unlmtdndeavor Proven Member

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    Joined Nov 20, 2003
    San Ramon/SLO, California
    I should be able to show some data in the next couple months. I am going with a s374 and a couple of my buddies have 4088's, a 4094, and a 4202. I'll make sure to post up results.
     

    514  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 1G DSM
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  7. chavez408

    chavez408 Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 13, 2003
    Bay Area, California
    Edwin going with the borg warner!
     
  8. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

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    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    :D sweet. Are those turbo's all going on DSMs?
     

    691  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  9. unlmtdndeavor

    unlmtdndeavor Proven Member

    470
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    Joined Nov 20, 2003
    San Ramon/SLO, California
    DSMs and evos.
    1. 4202r Evo 9 2.0L
    2. 4088r Evo 9 2.1L
    3. 4088r 2g DSM 2.0L
    4. 4094r GVR4 2.0L
    5. S374 My 1g. 2.0L

    I'll compare them with the 35r setups as well as my current 3052 setup
     

    514  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 1G DSM
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  10. Black95awd

    Black95awd Proven Member

    363
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    Joined Jan 29, 2008
    Bangor, Maine
    700whp and good street manners do not go together........... anything over 500whp on the street is useless...... IMHO
     
  11. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

    8,218
    91
    Joined Jul 11, 2004
    Bloxom, Virginia
    Hmm. A holset hx40 'spools' about as fast as a td06h 20g but has enough in it for 650whp. I suppose spool by 4K with a 2.0L with 272s is useless to some :) .

    Though journal bearing, these BW turbos 'spool so fast' in part because of their very efficient compressors. They convert more of the turbine wheels rotational energy into boost and less into heat. As a consequence, less energy needed from the turbine to sustain a certain boost. Boost is reached earlier and more gases can be wastegated allowing more exhaust flow for a given pressure. Thus the reason for Kiggly's comment on the BW 74mm. More out the tailpipe and a sooner boost theshold.

    Journal bearing turbo center sections are rebuildable and are less sensitive to oil pressure changes. Good characteristics for the diesel trucking /heavyduty industry. Holset and Borg-Warner turbos don't need ball bearings to spool fast and have fast transient response.
     

    2K  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 1G DSM
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  12. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    Cinnaminson, New Jersey
    There's a nother thread about this too that I was talking to monster about. It's crazy how effecient the Borg and holset turbos are. I think you would cheating yoruself not to atleast try. People say it's hype but number don't lie.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  13. andy4g63

    andy4g63 Proven Member

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    NY, New York
    JKIMES, there is a guy here on tuners, username Twicks 69 . He has gt 4088 and got some excellent #'s put of it. 740 whp to be exact and the car ran 9.9, don't remember the speed. You can PM him and find out more about 4088.

    The guy that ran 9.91@149.2 is my friend. I know him personally very well. He has Shearer mani, and the turbo hotside is 0.84/6. All the passes he made were with with a relatively low 1.6 / for him/ 60' times. He should be able to launch the car with around 1.4 times, but that was his first time out with REAL Dog box tranny and upgraded transfercase, both from DOG BOX Racing. And the trck was in bad shape. The boost was 38-39 PSI. His car made 679WHP and is incredibly light. 2500 lbs. with him in it.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  14. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    Cinnaminson, New Jersey
    Yeah I have talked to twick about this. His car is beast and he is a big garret guy. I mean for good reason look at his results.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  15. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

    8,218
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    Joined Jul 11, 2004
    Bloxom, Virginia
    Yes, good guy. He will level with you on the 4088r. His car eats transmissions like popcorn :) . Number 4 highest dyno results reported on the site. Still higher torque number than hp number even with such an extreme setup.
     

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    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 1G DSM
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  16. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

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    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    Thanks for sharing. :notgood: I love it when people post meaningless negative crap. :rolleyes:

    I have seen twicks car in several posts. His car was actually my original inspiration to use a 4088, but lately I've been hearing alot about the new Borg Warner ETT turbo's (Acronym stands for Extended Tip Technology... I think) and i'm conflicted on weather or not to go Garrett or Borg Warner. Reguardless, if you have a 2.3 or 2.4 engine a 366 or 4088 size turbo should be perfectly streetable.
     

    691  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  17. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

    3,249
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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Wow, just stumbled onto this thread, and I see everyone else on here already knows me! ROFL Thanks everyone! :thumb:

    I would love to see what the S374 does, but it is much more along the frame of a GT42R, and would require me to do some extra modifications to try one out.

    Personally, I think -- More power to you! Run one and post up the results -- it is all about trial and error, and sometimes you get lucky.

    As for streetability -- I think that my GT4088R is extremely streetable. I normally have it setup for street driving with fast spoolup (modified ignition map for early spoolup), resulting in up to 40psi+ of boost reached by 4000-4200rpms, and the insanity ends at redline (set at 8500rpms). For the track, I change my ignition timing back for slower spoolup since I am using a 2-step without anti-lag to build boost at the line. Even with the slow-spoolup ignition timing map, I see full boost around 4500-4700rpms.

    The car has currently put down 753AWHP/713TQ @ 40psi peak, falling to 35psi) on a new DynoJet AWD dyno at Beyond Redline Performance in Green Bay, WI after changing over intake manifolds.

    It hasn't been to the track yet, but the previous numbers were 741AWHP/696TQ at 49psi peak, falling to 42psi; on a DynoCom AWD dyno (also at Beyond Redline Performance), and track times of 9.96 @ 143mph with a best MPH of 147.88mph at 35psi on Q16 fuel in a 3200# street car on Hoosier QTP slicks.

    At 30psi of boost, the old intake manifold (magnus) vs. the new manifold (Beyond Redline) made an additional 108.97 HP and 74.23 TQ with just a manifold swap. The car now makes around 635AWHP at 30psi on Q16 gas.

    New Intake manifold numbers:
    30psi = 635AWHP/590ish TQ (can't remember)
    40psi = 753AWHP/713TQ (boost falling to 35psi at upper rpms)
    50psi = ??? -- hopefully around 825AWHP or so.

    I really like the Garrett turbos, especially my GT4088R. I definitely would love to see some more numbers put down with these Borg Warner turbos though. It might be worth checking out!

    As for popcorn eating..., I am currently on Transmission #16. The car will be back up and running by next week.

    My goals for this turbo is to put down solid low-9's, and 155mph trap speeds.
     

    Drag Race Build 7K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  18. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

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    Cinnaminson, New Jersey

    WTF That's NUTS!!! What exhaust housing is on that thing?
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  19. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

    240
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    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    I'm pretty sure twicks said he is using a .96 A/R ts hotside, but he may have changed it since he posted last. Correct me if i'm wrong Tim. Once again, congrats on the numbers... your car is awesome! :thumb: With that kind of peak power and spool I have a hard time believing that a 374 (or any turbo for that matter) would be a better turbo choice for a street DSM. The numbers I linked to in the original post seemed to suggest the 374 spooled faster and made more power, however, those numbers were from a skyline so it's not really a good indication of how it would perform on a DSM.

    BTW... Tim, If I were to get a 4088 turbo and a shep stage 4 transmission with REM how long do you think the tranny will last?
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  20. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    I am still running the 0.96 A/R Divided T4 flange exhaust housing.

    As for the transmission, I would make sure it either has a 4-spider center diff, along with cryotreating of the intermediate shaft and the 3rd/4th gearset and 3/4 hub and slider, and center differential housing.

    I am not sure how long it will last, but to make it last longer would be helped by using a twin-disk clutch with good master/slave cylinders and hydraulics, a properly adjusted clutch, and solid motor mounts. These things will help with driveline longevitiy quite a bit.
     

    Drag Race Build 7K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  21. jkimes

    jkimes Proven Member

    240
    2
    Joined Aug 25, 2004
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
    I'm probably gonna take the plunge and switch to twin disk ptt clutch if I go ahead and do a turbo upgrade and I already have poly motor mount inserts. I talked to Shep about the transmission a few weeks ago and he suggested that if I was making around 700 horsepower that a 4-spider was not an option. I guess if your making big power things will eventually break, but I would hope that If I spend $2,600 on a transmission that it might last a little while. WTF Sounds like I might need to ditch my Magnus intake also.
     

    691  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    574 whp · 509 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  22. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

    3,249
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    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Well, if he is reccomending against the 4-spider, then Shep should use the hardened chromoly cross-shaft with additional oiling grooves; designed, manufactured and sold by Luke Stubbs of Beyond Redline Performance ( Beyond Redline :: Performance Center )- - It is the only one I haven't broken over the years. It has lasted 4 or 5 transmissions, and every time it is taken apart, there is no excessive wear, no discoloration due to heat, and no damage. Great Part! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: Just talk to Luke, and he can send Shep a cross-shaft if you want to put it in. The only other alternative is a spool or a Quaife; and I would stay away from the spool. Mine just lasted 3 dyno pulls and 20 street miles before having issues -- along with having even crappier turning radius.
     

    Drag Race Build 7K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  23. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

    4,113
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    Joined Jun 8, 2005
    Cinnaminson, New Jersey
    STreet miles with a 740hp car ROFLROFLROFL only in a dsm. Twick do you run your car with race gas 24/7? I have been debating on this especialy with gas prices about race gas high anyway. Because 30psi and high timing don't sound like stuff you do on pump gas
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  24. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

    3,249
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    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    I usually run race gas all the time -- it is alot more fun, and smells better than pump gas.

    The car puts down around 550-580whp on pump gas; but it is much more enjoyable when running higher boost levels! ROFL
     

    Drag Race Build 7K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  25. Slippi84

    Slippi84 Proven Member

    4,113
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    Joined Jun 8, 2005
    Cinnaminson, New Jersey
    That is just nuts ROFL

    If you don't mind me asking do you do your own tuning because that seems like some VERY good results both pump gas and race gas. You have the best of both worlds 50trim like spool and big turbo power.
     

    1K  0

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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