HTA vs. HTZ - what's the difference?

[JusMX141]

Just happened to have two FP DSM Red turbos in at the shop in the past couple weeks- one is the older 76HTA version, and the other the newer 76HTZ.

Don't mind the grainy photos- if the pics were taken with the flash on, the reflection made them impossible to see.

I tried to set the wheels at nearly the same angle so the visual comparison would be easier.

HTA:

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HTZ:

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The leading edge of the minor blades have a pretty steep cutback angle on the HTZ wheel...but that's literally the only difference. Inducer/exducer specs are identical between the two, and the HTZ wheel still lacks an extended-tip design on the exducer.

So there you have it...consider yourself edjumucated.

 

[Kapok6]

Thanks. I have been wondering what exactly the differences are. Could that leading edge actually allow the wheel to flow a few lbs/min more than its HTA counterpart like FP says?

 

[Dstarperformance01]

Thanks. I have been wondering what exactly the differences are. Could that leading edge actually allow the wheel to flow a few lbs/min more than its HTA counterpart like FP says?

^+1

 

[bling5tatus]

If that's the only difference then I would attribute that change to the extra lb/min.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Is there a weight difference?

 

[Dstarperformance01]

Is there a weight difference?

^ great question. I would like to know as well. I wouldn't think, unless turbine housing weigh different according to cm change.

 

[94awdcoupe]

nice. was wondering about that myself. no way the new design has more max flow. just fancy advertising to get you to buy the latest and the greatest

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Inwas referring to the compressor wheel not the whole turbo, the only thing FP changes is the conpressor, everything else is either garrett or MHI. With the exception of ther billet xona line.

 

[donniekak]

nice. was wondering about that myself. no way the new design has more max flow. just fancy advertising to get you to buy the latest and the greatest

Why would they spend money developing a part that has exactly the same performance as the previous model? They claim 5% increase in choke flow, that is possible with small aero changes.

I am running the 3586htz and have the track, and dyno monster parts combination figured out. I'm working on the daily driver setup now. Next summer i'll have the track setup back on it, and I'm going to compare numbers to the huge database of hta3586 results.

 

[NB4G63T]

So they offered the 3586 in a HTA wheel and then the HTZ wheel Donnie? I was not aware the offered two aero packages with the 3586

 

[Dstarperformance01]

I am running the 3586htz and have the track, and dyno monster parts combination figured out. I'm working on the daily driver setup now. Next summer i'll have the track setup back on it, and I'm going to compare numbers to the huge database of hta3586 results.[/QUOTE]

So, that's what you were talking about.

 

[94awdcoupe]

Why would they spend money developing a part that has exactly the same performance as the previous model? They claim 5% increase in choke flow, that is possible with small aero changes.

I am running the 3586htz and have the track, and dyno monster parts combination figured out. I'm working on the daily driver setup now. Next summer i'll have the track setup back on it, and I'm going to compare numbers to the huge database of hta3586 results.

maybe thats true. but for instance the 68hta for the evo8/9 has changed names three times. last name 71mm flows 2lbs more. but I know for a fact the wheel itself has NEVER changed. its still 69mm exducer. always has been. definitely marketing if you ask me. so I am not buying it flows 5% more.

 

[donniekak]

maybe thats true. but for instance the 68hta for the evo8/9 has changed names three times. last name 71mm flows 2lbs more. but I know for a fact the wheel itself has NEVER changed. its still 69mm exducer. always has been. definitely marketing if you ask me. so I am not buying it flows 5% more.

Why spend the r&d cash to make a wheel thats exactly the same? Im not talking switching names around on baby turbos. Im talking the compressor wheels only. Why make an 82htz compressor that flows the same as the previous 82hta?

 

[NB4G63T]

So again the 3586 was offered in HTA wheel then a HTZ wheel? I have a pristine fp3586 comp wheel, just wonder which it is if there was two.

 

[Kapok6]

Yes, their older wheels were HTA wheels. Their new wheels are HTZ. (With the exception of the 68 I believe.)

 

[donniekak]

So again the 3586 was offered in HTA wheel then a HTZ wheel? I have a pristine fp3586 comp wheel, just wonder which it is if there was two.

They don't advertise the Garrett based turbos anymore. The turbo I have was a Garrett gtx3576 that was upgraded to the 86htz compressor.

The htz compressors are what are in the new xona turbos.

 

[NB4G63T]

Yes, their older wheels were HTA wheels. Their new wheels are HTZ. (With the exception of the 68 I believe.)

Thanks. I'll have to look at the wheel I have tonight and see if I can tell from the picture Justin posted.


Thanks Donnie.

 

[bastarddsm]

maybe thats true. but for instance the 68hta for the evo8/9 has changed names three times. last name 71mm flows 2lbs more. but I know for a fact the wheel itself has NEVER changed. its still 69mm exducer. always has been. definitely marketing if you ask me. so I am not buying it flows 5% more.

While I'm not an FP guy, and I also think this HTA/HTZ shit is a lot of hype, I'll bet my life that it probably does increase flow, and I will also say that while many comments you make are very valid, you have no business commenting on on this. Unless you are a closet compressor wheel designer, even then you probably couldn't truthfully make such claims as you have. I'll bet Robert himself couldn't even truthfully tell you that it will work better, and if he did it would be a guess based on his prior experience. To be able to make that claim you would either need to have a seat at a $100k/yr software package such as fluent as well as a $100k/yr person to run it, pay some university for a student to do it as is masters thesis, or cut and try. I'll bet FP cut's and trys.

What your missing is that a small change can make a large impact on the flow through the wheel. Alter the blade angle and maybe there is less flow separation, so now there is more flow area, or perhaps you encourage turbulence and now there is less boundary layer air.

 

[19gsx91]

I honestly think this just comes down to production costs, they had X amount of HTA Wheels produced, contract ran out and they came into or designed the "HTZ" wheel and managed to get it made for a similar price. Of course they're going to say it's better, why would they release the "new" turbo and admit it flows less then the old turbo that worked perfectly fine but they just couldn't make same product for the same cost anymore?

@Jusmx41 You called them out on something similar a few months ago if my memory serves about them reviving the old FP red.

And I hate to bring up the 68hta again Bastard, but the only reason they stopped making the v1 was because they ran out of product and had to switch over to something else, this may very well be a similar situation. I wouldn't take it any farther then that.

 

[JusMX141]

@Jusmx41 You called them out on something similar a few months ago if my memory serves about them reviving the old FP red.

I never really called anyone out- more like I inquired what the difference is directly and got nothing more than "it's the newest tech" which I took as either the person I asked didn't know how to answer the question or the information was confidential. I was honestly expecting an extended-tip compressor and was sort-of shocked that this was the only difference....at first I thought there was no difference at all until I looked closer.

 

[94awdcoupe]

While I'm not an FP guy, and I also think this HTA/HTZ sh** is a lot of hype, I'll bet my life that it probably does increase flow, and I will also say that while many comments you make are very valid, you have no business commenting on on this. Unless you are a closet compressor wheel designer, even then you probably couldn't truthfully make such claims as you have. I'll bet Robert himself couldn't even truthfully tell you that it will work better, and if he did it would be a guess based on his prior experience. To be able to make that claim you would either need to have a seat at a $100k/yr software package such as fluent as well as a $100k/yr person to run it, pay some university for a student to do it as is masters thesis, or cut and try. I'll bet FP cut's and trys.

What your missing is that a small change can make a large impact on the flow through the wheel. Alter the blade angle and maybe there is less flow separation, so now there is more flow area, or perhaps you encourage turbulence and now there is less boundary layer air.

you dont really know me enough to say I dont have a right to comment on it. I do a lot of turbo testing here. here is a picture from my office a few years back. you are entitled to your opinion as am I. almost without fail on the compressor side taking blade area away results in less flow. you have a lot of nerve posting the way you do.

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[Vegas Smith]

I don't think he was taking a shot at you but merely saying (I think) that improving a turbo's design requires actually testing it scientifically (which requires tons of money) not just slapping them on the car and going faster. It's scientific evidence vs anecdotal evidence.

 

[19gsx91]

I never really called anyone out- more like I inquired what the difference is directly and got nothing more than "it's the newest tech" which I took as either the person I asked didn't know how to answer the question or the information was confidential. I was honestly expecting an extended-tip compressor and was sort-of shocked that this was the only difference....at first I thought there was no difference at all until I looked closer.

I misspoke earlier Justin, I apologize. I'll refer you to the thread I'm mentioning.. http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/old-school-fp-red-available-again.503568/

I only brought it up because you mentioned "leftover compressor wheels" - the connection I was attempting to make was that they ran out of 'hta" wheels, changed the design slightly on the next batch and landed with the "htz" wheel. Sorry for any confusion. I like Forced performance products from my dealings with them - they rebuilt my 68hta even though I was feeding it improperly and sent it back free of charge. I was just throwing my .02 in about production issues but this is getting to be more of technical discussion so I'll back out of it

 

[JusMX141]

Cast MHI TD06H4 18KX3 compressor from a 6M60T diesel, circa 2004/2005. Take note of the similar blade angle to the leading edge of the minors. This is the same compressor that is used on the current OEM upgrade TF06-07 18KX3 turbos offered by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries for Evo X and Subaru cars...except in billet.

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[New gst owner]

Just happened to have two FP DSM Red turbos in at the shop in the past couple weeks- one is the older 76HTA version, and the other the newer 76HTZ.

Don't mind the grainy photos- if the pics were taken with the flash on, the reflection made them impossible to see.

I tried to set the wheels at nearly the same angle so the visual comparison would be easier.

HTA:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

HTZ:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The leading edge of the minor blades have a pretty steep cutback angle on the HTZ wheel...but that's literally the only difference. Inducer/exducer specs are identical between the two, and the HTZ wheel still lacks an extended-tip design on the exducer.

So there you have it...consider yourself edjumucated.

K so I got an 82 htz jb turbo from a buddy of mine. In English and to a newbie, is that like 16g or something?