Head swap horrible noise. Lifter problem?

[mchustle]

Ok just finished my head swap and turbo install on my gst. I installed some delta h272s on stock valve train. After start up there was a horrible sound kind of like a spun bearing. Seeing as how I don't know how it could have a spun rod bearing from being parked for a couple weeks for the head swap and turbo change I started doing some research. First I didn't bleed the lifters since they were out for so long probably stupid on my part, but I also found out delta cams require shims which mine didn't have. Could this horrible sound be a mix of these two things? I'm pulling the vc to check out the lifters when I get off today. Any thing I should look for? Worst case I'm going to pull the cams and put my stock ones back and see how it does. I know my timing is right I redid it about 10 times to make sure it was right. Thanks for any input

 

[mchustle]

Ok just popped the vc off. I can push down pretty much all the lifters with my fingers. I have no idea if this is normal behavior or not. I thought the sound originally was because they were not pumped up yet but it ran for about 20 mins and never got any more quiet. I can actually push the lifter down and pull the rocker arm off if the cam lobe isnt in the way. Something just doesnt seem right. Is there some kind of seal inside the lifter that I could have blown by not bleeding them, or is there another reason they are not pumping up? Someone please chime in and lend a hand im lost.

 

[BogusSVO]

Are the HLAs loose in there bore? As in movement up and down?

If so the HLA may have pumped too far, and can not take up any more lash.

place a #10 washer under each HLA, bleed down the HLAs and re-install.

 

[seattleshawn]

If you got these direct from Delta they should have come with shims or as bogus states #10 washers. If you didn't shim them than thats most likely the source of your noise.

 

[mchustle]

Are the HLAs loose in there bore? As in movement up and down?

If so the HLA may have pumped too far, and can not take up any more lash.

place a #10 washer under each HLA, bleed down the HLAs and re-install.

The hlas aren't moving up and down I can just push them down by pressing the rocker. I'm at lowes right now and I'm going to see if I can find some washers. I'm hoping they just can't pump up because the shims aren't there and it will be ok once I put some in. Fingers crossed.

 

[mchustle]

Just pulled all the lifters and put the shims in. I guess it could be the lifters filling up but I wouldn't assume it would be this loud.

 

[BogusSVO]

The common HLA is built with appox .060 to .080 from being bottomed out to full extention

They are supposed to be in the mid range for working.

Delta grinds appox .060 from the base circle, that means the HLA has to take up that space to keep the follower in contact with the cam.

Now if the HLA is in the mid range .030-.040

That leaves an add'l .030-.040 it can pump up and remove the slack.
But now it seems you are out of the working range of the HLA, hence why the shim is needed under the HLA

 

[mchustle]

The common HLA is built with appox .060 to .080 from being bottomed out to full extention

They are supposed to be in the mid range for working.

Delta grinds appox .060 from the base circle, that means the HLA has to take up that space to keep the follower in contact with the cam.

Now if the HLA is in the mid range .030-.040

That leaves an add'l .030-.040 it can pump up and remove the slack.
But now it seems you are out of the working range of the HLA, hence why the shim is needed under the HLA

Yea that makes sense to me. I installed the shims under every Hla and let it run for 20 mins or so including driving it around the block a couple times, and the sound still won't go away. The only things I can think might be wrong are the cams are messed up somehow or the head isn't getting enough oil. I ran it with the vc off and it looked nice and lubed but didn't really spray oil everywhere like I was expecting. I'm at a lose I guess tomorrow I'll pull the cams and install my stock ones to see if that makes a difference.

 

[bryanwheat]

Yea that makes sense to me. I installed the shims under every Hla and let it run for 20 mins or so including driving it around the block a couple times, and the sound still won't go away. The only things I can think might be wrong are the cams are messed up somehow or the head isn't getting enough oil. I ran it with the vc off and it looked nice and lubed but didn't really spray oil everywhere like I was expecting. I'm at a lose I guess tomorrow I'll pull the cams and install my stock ones to see if that makes a difference.

If you ran it with the valve cover off, it should of shot oil out the relief holes pretty high.

 

[BogusSVO]

With the VC off you should have a well lubed under hood.

Did you do oil mod 1 ?

Did you measure the thickness of the head?

Is this a 6 bolt short block with the 2g head?

There is a small pipe plug, takes a 5mm allen bit to remove, on the thermastst side of the head, less than 1 inch above the HG.

Remove this plug, and if you can tap an oil gauge to it, note this is a BTP plug, not a 1/8 NPT.

Check for good oil flow from that point.

Also you may want to pop the VC back off , and pull the oil diverter block off and check that.

 

[hotrodssnova]

Where did you get the head? Bogus sounds on the money about the wrong head. What head bolts were used?

 

[mchustle]

Ok it deff wasn't shooting out like I think it should. It is a 7bolt head on a 6bolt block, head bolt holes were reemed out to 1/2 as I was informed to do by our local machine guru, bogus himself . Arp studs. Like an idiot I didn't do the oil port mod like I should have. I'll try to check that port your talking about bogus. Is the oil port pretty much the only way the head gets its oil? It is going to suck having to pull the head again, but I'd like to know its right.

 

[bryanwheat]

Ok it deff wasn't shooting out like I think it should. It is a 7bolt head on a 6bolt block, head bolt holes were reemed out to 1/2 as I was informed to do by our local machine guru, bogus himself . Arp studs. Like an idiot I didn't do the oil port mod like I should have. I'll try to check that port your talking about bogus. Is the oil port pretty much the only way the head gets its oil? It is going to suck having to pull the head again, but I'd like to know its right.

Before pulling the head i would check the oil pressure at the head. Even without the oil port mod you should still have good pressure to the head. Even if the head is machined down so far that the port on the head is gone, there will still be oil flowing due to the hole in the gaskets.

 

[mchustle]

Before pulling the head i would check the oil pressure at the head. Even without the oil port mod you should still have good pressure to the head. Even if the head is machined down so far that the port on the head is gone, there will still be oil flowing due to the hole in the gaskets.

I'm deff going to try that first I have a oil psi gauge laying around somewhere that should do fine. I just didn't know if I could have messed up and blocked something with one of the studs or something.

 

[BogusSVO]

How long since the head has been run? Has it been set up in your shop for some months?

Reason I am asking is simple, bugs love holes... some bug may have, could have made a nest in onr the oil galleys causing a oil restriction.

Yep.. this is out in left field, but has happened before....

 

[mchustle]

How long since the head has been run? Has it been set up in your shop for some months?

Reason I am asking is simple, bugs love holes... some bug may have, could have made a nest in onr the oil galleys causing a oil restriction.

Yep.. this is out in left field, but has happened before....

Lol I can totally see that happening haha. It was pulled sat in my shop for 2 days, went to the machine shop, and then sat in my bedroom floor for a week or so before I put it on. If there is something blocking an oil passage is there a way to try to dislodge it with some compressed air or something? I really don't want to pull the head again and have to buy a new hg, let alone do that horrible timing again.

Would you happen to know what size fitting that hole you were talking about takes do I can get whatever it is I need?

 

[rhamlinii]

Ok just finished my head swap and turbo install on my gst. I installed some delta h272s on stock valve train. After start up there was a horrible sound kind of like a spun bearing. Seeing as how I don't know how it could have a spun rod bearing from being parked for a couple weeks for the head swap and turbo change I started doing some research. First I didn't bleed the lifters since they were out for so long probably stupid on my part, but I also found out delta cams require shims which mine didn't have. Could this horrible sound be a mix of these two things? I'm pulling the vc to check out the lifters when I get off today. Any thing I should look for? Worst case I'm going to pull the cams and put my stock ones back and see how it does. I know my timing is right I redid it about 10 times to make sure it was right. Thanks for any input

Very interested in what you may find out. My car is currently sitting in a shop in
Maryland, with a what sounds like the same concern as you. The oil pan is coming down tmw. They seem to think it's the block, but it sounds to me like valve tap under any type of load. My car is exteremely loud so it's hard to hear at idle. Me and my tunner believe, before we shoot for any new benchmark with the car. We should find out what's wrong with the car. Does the HLA in the head ever go bad?

 

[mchustle]

With the VC off you should have a well lubed under hood.

Did you do oil mod 1 ?

Did you measure the thickness of the head?

Is this a 6 bolt short block with the 2g head?

There is a small pipe plug, takes a 5mm allen bit to remove, on the thermastst side of the head, less than 1 inch above the HG.

Remove this plug, and if you can tap an oil gauge to it, note this is a BTP plug, not a 1/8 NPT.

Check for good oil flow from that point.

Also you may want to pop the VC back off , and pull the oil diverter block off and check that.

OK update not very good news though. I pulled the diverter thing and blew air through all the ports not blockage. Pulled the allen plug no oil there, so I then pulled the head stud to make sure nothing was blocking underneath it, and I didnt see any oil there. At this point Im at a loss of what to do. From my understanding the head gets all its oil from that hole therefore no oil in that hole no oil in the head. My next question would be where does oil go before it goes through that headstud hole? Any ideas in where there might be a blockage before that hole? I dont think my oil pump died because im pretty sure i would have some major knocking from the bottom end by now.

Any advice on what to do next would be very helpful, although I have a feeling Im going to be pulling the head back off as bad as thats going to suck.

I give all I have to this dsm and she treats me like crap, even when I try to do things the right way.

 

[BogusSVO]

I just looked at a 7 bolt block I have apart in the shop.

There is a main oil feed galley that runs from behind the front case the length of the block.

When looking at the timing belt side, with the front case off, this galley is by the front BS bearing.

This galley feeds everything, mains and front balance shaft.

So as pressurized oil if pushed down the galley the first BS bearing gets oil first, then the mains, then it is pushed up the oil feed hole to the head.

Now Knowing this,

Have you done a BSE?
Were the bearings flipped to block the oil holes?

Also What oil gauge do you have? Stock or after market? What oil pressure are you reading? From where?

Next... are you sure there is a gasket between the oil pick up and oil pump?
Air can be sucked in and pumps easier than oil.

 

[hotrodssnova]

Perhaps one of the piston squirters came apart. If all you did was swap heads, I'll put my money on the feed hole bolt wasn't reamed out from the base of the head to just north of the oil path in the head casting. Have you pulled the spark plugs, then pull that stud, and pull the mpi relay and crank it to verify you get oil to the bolt hole? You don't want to crank it with compression and a head stud out. That test would be free, besides, those Allen plugs can be a bear to remove.

 

[mchustle]

Yea bse is done bearing are suppose to be flipped, a shop did the bse before I was ok with doing the timing myself. My oil psi gauge is unhooked right now but I'll be sure to hook it up and see what it is saying. I don't see how the pickup tube could be the problem because I always had good pressure if not a little high before the hg change.

Bolt holes were reemed out the studs fell through the holes no problem. I don't have oil squirters in my block. I have already pulled the head stud and I'm not getting oil to that hole. That why I asked what else came before the hole.

My next step I believe is going to be dropping the pan and shooting some air up the pickup tube to see if something is some how blocking the passage.

If nothing else I guess my oil pump died from sitting for a couple weeks. Unlikely I know but it's a Dsm.

 

[BogusSVO]

Get the gauge hooked up first.

Blowing air thu the pick up will do nothing. you would have to have the front case off, and then blow back thu the head oil feed at the top of the block.

 

[hotrodssnova]

I didn't notice WHY you replaced the head. Was there lifter tick before? Head gasket blow? Bent valves?

 

[mchustle]

There was nothing wrong with the hg, I just decided to pull the head after I blew my 16g. I figured if I was switching to a holset I'm gonna need arp studs and I also wanted to replace the valve stem seals.

As for a update I hooked up my oil psi gauge and it was reading nothing. Figured the sending unit might have crapped out I took it out turned the car over and nothing was shooting out.

Dropped the oil pan one of my rod bearings is a little messed up not extremely bad but deff needs replaced. I'm guessing the number one thing that is wrong is my oil pump because I don't think I'm getting oil anywhere. I'm gonna get a new oil pump and bearings and see how it goes. I'm hoping my bearings aren't bad enough that I can't just throw new bearings in from underneath.

 

[mchustle]

Or I could always say screw the 4g63 and try to find some pistons and rods for this 4g64 I have and swap my head on .