Gt3076 aka dsm76 whistling

[badassgsx]

Hi guys I finally got my car running I have A dsm76 I was boosting around 20psi when all of a sudden my car felt like it hit fuel cut.
I turned off car and restarted it now I hear a loud whistling like a jet I pulled intake pipe and spun turbo and its grinding why would this happen

I am running full sythetic 5w30 oil with fp correct filter/ restrictor this turbo barely has 500 miles on it please help

 

[donniekak]

Check the filter for clogging. Also, why 5w-30?

 

[badassgsx]

Filter isn't clogged I checked it allready and I thought full sythetic 5 w 30 would be fine should I try a thicker oil 10 40 do u think my turo is garbage compressor wheel is fine no play just whistling like crazy I did everything the right way

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Like a Herbert the pervert whistle? Sounds like the bearings are doody.

 

[badassgsx]

Why would it get starved for oil when nothing is clogged and it sounds like a jet engine can I drive car like this just baby it or should I tow it

Do u guys think fp will warranty this it's only 3 months old

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Doubtful because more then likely the oil pressure issues were on your part.

 

[badassgsx]

Anybody out there

Any other way besides starvation my bearings would fail

There was nothing wrong with oil pressure

 

[007jimmy]

Could be blown by too much oil. Where are you feeding it from and what kind of oil return do you have?

 

['97boostinGST]

Your best bet will be to contact FP, if you bought it directly from them brand new.
I don't see why they would refuse to look at it since its a new turbo.

 

[badassgsx]

From the head with fp filter/ restrictor fp oil feed line and fp return line

 

[JusMX141]

You blew a coupler or something near the compressor cover....and now you're hearing the sound of the compressor that is normally contained in the piping.

I thought full sythetic 5 w 30 would be fine should I try a thicker oil 10 40

I find it funny how much like many folks come on this site and don't bother to read our rules, there are also guys who don't read the oiling requirements or even ask the manufacturer what oil is recommended for their new $2000 turbo.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf

 

[Boostdriven]

You should do a boost leak test just to make sure you don't have any leaks in your piping system, just like jusMX said you could be hearing the whistling noise because of that. If all that checks out then maybe your bearings are shot and more then likely due to lack of oil.

Honesty I never put faith in those restrictors. To me it just don't make sense to take the oil away from a part that spins at 150k rpms and sees 1000+ degrees of temperature. All the turbos I've ever ran on my car or bolted up to someone's car I have never installed a restrictor or any kind. I always feed the turbo from the oil filter housing and not from the head, by the time that oil gets to the turbo traveling through the head and then a restrictor it loosed a lot of pressure and then finally when it gets to the bearings that are like 500+ degrees it becomes like water and just runs right out. I run a hx40 with a #6 oil line feeding it from the filter housing, had it like that for about 13k miles, turbo is still like new. Fully warmed up I see about 50psi of oil pressure at 2500 rpms and I'm sure that's what the turbo sees.

 

[badassgsx]

I am sure people run 5w30 in there 4g63

I will do a blt as soon as I get this thing home and 20 50 is recommended not required so that should not void my warranty. I wasn't drag racing the car I was cruising on the freeway and gave it a little boost this turbo is good for 40 psi
I will keep you guys posted those who have helped me. Didn't your mom teach you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. I was simply trying to get feedback not rude comments.

 

[boost97gst]

You should do a boost leak test just to make sure you don't have any leaks in your piping system, just like jusMX said you could be hearing the whistling noise because of that. If all that checks out then maybe your bearings are shot and more then likely due to lack of oil.

Honesty I never put faith in those restrictors. To me it just don't make sense to take the oil away from a part that spins at 150k rpms and sees 1000+ degrees of temperature. All the turbos I've ever ran on my car or bolted up to someone's car I have never installed a restrictor or any kind. I always feed the turbo from the oil filter housing and not from the head, by the time that oil gets to the turbo traveling through the head and then a restrictor it loosed a lot of pressure and then finally when it gets to the bearings that are like 500+ degrees it becomes like water and just runs right out. I run a hx40 with a #6 oil line feeding it from the filter housing, had it like that for about 13k miles, turbo is still like new. Fully warmed up I see about 50psi of oil pressure at 2500 rpms and I'm sure that's what the turbo sees.

Thats VERY interesting. I cant weigh in cause i have experience only with journals but i had no idea the seals could handle full pressure in a BB turbo, thats why they require restictors. 13k miles huh? Well, you certainly have proof that it works.
Justin: what are youre thoughts on this? Im curious

 

[badassgsx]

If I do change oil to 20 50 do u think the whining will go away if there is no restriction and not a boost leak? I drove it like a block while whining

 

[Boostdriven]

I'm assuming that you have a ball bearing turbo, if that's the case and if indeed you are hearing the bearings whining/whistling then probably there is nothing you can do to fix it but to send it off to have it repaired. I woukd use 10w30 and take a restrictor out and see what happens. A little bit more oil won't hurt that turbos, you are already feeding it from a low oil pressure supply (head). I don't have to much experience with ball bearing turbos cause I don't like them. They are less forgiving then journal bearing to minor mistakes. Journal bearings have worked for many years and there is probably a good reason why they didn't use ball bearings in factory turbos like holset or Borg warner.

You said that when you spun the turbo by hand you heard grinding, what do u mean?

Thats VERY interesting. I cant weigh in cause i have experience only with journals but i had no idea the seals could handle full pressure in a BB turbo, thats why they require restictors. 13k miles huh? Well, you certainly have proof that it works.
Justin: what are youre thoughts on this? Im curious

Yes at least 13k miles now, I've seen more turbos fail with restrictor then without it. Ball bearings turbos are a bit different then journal bearing and required less oil but also could be starved for oil. If u look at the stock oil supply on a 5.9L cummins that uses hx35 the oil line comes straight out of the block and uses #6 fittings with no restrictor. those turbos go for 200k+ miles no problem.

Of all the turbos I took apart to rebuild I've never seen any seals in there to blow. What keeps the oil from going in to the compressor cover and exhaust housing are 2 rings, their called piston rings. One (sometimes two) sits in the grove of the shaft next to the exhaust wheel and the other sits on the collar that slide on to a smallest end of the shaft next to the compressor wheel, that is the same on ball bearing and journal bearing turbos. There is no direct pressure of oil on those rings, they are designed to keep the flee flowing oil that comes out from the bearings from passing through.

 

[JusMX141]

Honesty I never put faith in those restrictors. To me it just don't make sense to take the oil away from a part that spins at 150k rpms and sees 1000+ degrees of temperature. All the turbos I've ever ran on my car or bolted up to someone's car I have never installed a restrictor or any kind. I always feed the turbo from the oil filter housing and not from the head, by the time that oil gets to the turbo traveling through the head and then a restrictor it loosed a lot of pressure and then finally when it gets to the bearings that are like 500+ degrees it becomes like water and just runs right out. I run a hx40 with a #6 oil line feeding it from the filter housing, had it like that for about 13k miles, turbo is still like new. Fully warmed up I see about 50psi of oil pressure at 2500 rpms and I'm sure that's what the turbo sees.

Ball bearing turbos = completely different oiling requirements. Completely.

If you feed one of these turbos with more oil than they can effectively handle, you'll push oil past the seals in no time...and you can't do a simple rebuild on a ball bearing turbo. It's an $800+ CHRA every time you screw something up.

Let's put it this way- the crank bearings in my old race bikes were ball bearings; the crank turned at 15K on my 125's. The crank bearings were only lubricated by the 3.2oz of oil that I mixed with every gallon of gasoline....and I never had a crank bearing failure on any bike in 14 years of racing.

Ball bearings need very, very little oil to stay alive....but the oil must be clean.

Justin: what are youre thoughts on this? Im curious

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tur...l-feed-supply-locations-all-turbo-brands.html

Yes at least 13k miles now, I've seen more turbos fail with restrictor then without it. Ball bearings turbos are a bit different then journal bearing and required less oil but also could be starved for oil. If u look at the stock oil supply on a 5.9L cummins that uses hx35 the oil line comes straight out of the block and uses #6 fittings with no restrictor. those turbos go for 200k+ miles no problem.

They also have drains that are 7/8" I.D., something which isn't available to us. These diesels also never exceed 100psi of oil pressure which is quite common when feeding from the filter housing on our cars.

Holset has the oiling info in black and white on their site....if you stray from what they recommend, you're going to have problems- it's as simple as that.

Of all the turbos I took apart to rebuild I've never seen any seals in there to blow. What keeps the oil from going in to the compressor cover and exhaust housing are 2 rings, their called piston rings. One (sometimes two) sits in the grove of the shaft next to the exhaust wheel and the other sits on the collar that slide on to a smallest end of the shaft next to the compressor wheel, that is the same on ball bearing and journal bearing turbos. There is no direct pressure of oil on those rings, they are designed to keep the flee flowing oil that comes out from the bearings from passing through.

But if you feed more oil in the cartridge than it can effectively drain, guess where the oil's going?

 

[Boostdriven]

Dude u can't compare dirt bike bearings that spin up to 15k rpms and see no more then 200-250 degrees to bearings that spin at 100k+ rpms and see way more heat then 250 degrees. That turbo probably spins at 8-10k at idle let alone at 3000 rpms cruising speed. If ball bearing turbos were designed to last 200k miles then all the diesel trucks woukd use them.

Just because some company that overprices the bb turbos says u need a restrictor doesn't mean each motor will put out the same oil pressure. I would start out with out a restrictor with like a #4 line and then go from there, more oil is better then not enough. Once the turbo starts grinding from lack of oil there isn't enough oil in the world to make it run like new again, that turbo is on its way out. I've seen journal bearings turbos fail because companies that they were bought from said the restrictor was required, well 1000 miles later the bearings were shot and the turbo was smoking even with the all might restrictor.

 

[JusMX141]

Dude u can't compare dirt bike bearings that spin up to 15k rpms and see no more then 200-250 degrees to bearings that spin at 100k+ rpms and see way more heat then 250 degrees. That turbo probably spins at 8-10k at idle let alone at 3000 rpms cruising speed. If ball bearing turbos were designed to last 200k miles then all the diesel trucks woukd use them.

Dude...there's a lot more load on a crankshaft than there is a turbo shaft regardless of speed. Point being, the ball bearings themselves need very little oil to survive; hence the reason coolant is mandatory on a ball bearing turbo to dissipate heat as there is not enough oil there to do the job of cooling. Dude.

I'll post a photo when I get home from work that will blow your mind....illustrating just how small the oiling holes which feed oil into the Garrett ball bearing cartridge from the oiling groove in the housing actually are. We're talking needle-point.

I've seen journal bearings turbos fail because companies that they were bought from said the restrictor was required, well 1000 miles later the bearings were shot and the turbo was smoking even with the all might restrictor.

I've been using the same 7/64" restrictor in Dave's HX40 since it's been on the car. Three years, 38psi, and a bunch of 10-second passes until finally that 9-second pass he'd been looking for and still no shaft play in any direction.

The main reason I opted for a restrictor in the first place is the car is wide-open a lot, and pressure at wide-open throttle seems a little high...plus he's only using a -10AN drain which is significantly smaller than is recommended by Holset. So far it seems like a magic combination on this car.

The bottom line is there is no blanket oiling info that works on a whole for any one car....it varies by car, and by turbo. Feed a ball bearing turbo unrestricted from the filter housing and I'm confident that you're going to have an issue relating to excessive oil pressure at some point.

If FP is the one honoring the warranty and they told him how to feed the turbo, and his current oil feed is within the requirement set by FP, then this entire debate is null.

 

[badassgsx]

It's not really a grinding sound but u can hear its the bearings. Something just sounds different but bearing still spin the same just louder than before

 

[Boostdriven]

It's not really a grinding sound but u can hear its the bearings. Something just sounds different but bearing still spin the same just louder than before

Contact the company that u bought the turbo from and tell them what's going on, hopefully they will honor their warranty and fix your turbo. My guess just like any other company they will not want to replace it for free. They always seem to have some excuses to get more money out of you. They don't pay their bills by giving away turbos if you must use that restrictor try feeding the turbo from the oil filter housing, there is not that much oil pressure from the head to begins with. Another thing when you feed the oil from the head on start up it takes some time for the oil pressure to build up in the head and get to the turbo so for few seconds your turbo is spinning (dry) which I'm sure is not so good on those bearings. A good lubricated bearing shouldn't be making much noise.

If in the end you have to spend $800+ dollars on a new CHRA then you might as well spend 400-500 dollars and buy hx35 which you can rebuild at home for less then $75 dollars which will perform just as good as $2000 dollar turbo, keep me posted on this and if you have any other questions feel free to ask, you can pm me anytime.

Dude. You're arguing with the turbo god, and I can promise you that you aren't going to win. If Jusmx says something about a turbo, then it might as well be law.

He maybe your god that's why you have to kiss his a$$

I've been using the same 7/64" restrictor in Dave's HX40 since it's been on the car. Three years, 38psi, and a bunch of 10-second passes until finally that 9-second pass he'd been looking for and still no shaft play in any direction.

7/64" is 0.109 1/8" is 0.125 so its 0.016 smaller then 1/8" and 0.016 is nothing, barely thicker then your hair which is nothing for a restrictor. The predrilled holes inside the CHRA that feed the bearings are smaller then 1/8" Your standard #4 fitting will have a hole no bigger then 1/8" so that 7/64" restrictor is no different then a #4 feed line

 

[dsmcurse]

i would have to agree with boostdriven. oil feed from the head is sketchy

 

[JusMX141]

I'll post a photo when I get home from work that will blow your mind....illustrating just how small the oiling holes which feed oil into the Garrett ball bearing cartridge from the oiling groove in the housing actually are. We're talking needle-point.

The two oil holes which feed the grooves in the bearing cartridge...the large hole in the center is where the pin goes which keeps the cartridge from turning within the housing:

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The two oil holes in the bearing cartridge itself...I even laid a push-pin on top to illustrate the size of the hole:

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^ Note there is only one of those tiny holes in each oiling groove, even over the entire circumference.

All other oil entering the cartridge is wasted and goes directly to the drain....so if you over-oil the turbo, since this type of turbo uses such very little oil in it's bearing cartridge, the oil which cannot drain will then bypass the sealing rings and enter the exhaust system or intercooler piping.

If you still don't believe me, look on Garrett's site for Christ's sake:

Oil & Water Lines | Turbobygarrett

"An oil restrictor is recommended for optimal performance with ball bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure of 40 - 45 psi at maximum engine speed is recommended to prevent damage to the turbocharger's internals. In order to achieve this pressure, a restrictor with a 0.040' orifice will normally suffice, but you should always verify the oil pressure entering the turbo after the restrictor in insure that the components are functioning properly."

So explain why feeding from the filter housing with double the recommended pressure and not using a restrictor sounds like a good idea for a Garrett GT user given these guidelines.

7/64" is 0.109 1/8" is 0.125 so its 0.016 smaller then 1/8" and 0.016 is nothing, barely thicker then your hair which is nothing for a restrictor. The predrilled holes inside the CHRA that feed the bearings are smaller then 1/8" Your standard #4 fitting will have a hole no bigger then 1/8" so that 7/64" restrictor is no different then a #4 feed line

Now you're arguing just to hear yourself talk.

Here's a standard 4AN to 1/8" NPT oil fitting:

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I have three different fittings on hand, even a couple of the blue Earl's fittings for MHI turbos which all measured the same.

So we have .164" versus .109" being the restrictor that I'm using in Dave's HX40...a difference of .055", which is greater than the difference between a standard Garrett ball bearing restrictor (.040") and the restrictor which came in the filter housing on every T25-equipped 2G ever produced (.075").

So according to you, .055" isn't going to restrict anything....am I correct?

 

[AK Maniak]

Boostsdriven won't accept that he is wrong and that Jusmx knows what he is talking about.
And no an HX35 won't be just as good as a DSM76. Quit being a cheap bastard and stop praising holsets. There are much better turbos for our platforms than an old diesel turbo. And no, you can't compare oil requirements from an ancient journal bearing turbo to a BB one.

 

[Boostdriven]

Looks like this could go on for ever all I was saying is that its better to start with more oil and if its smokes or spools slower then it should then back off some, rather then to starved the turbo of oil first. Badassgsx said that his turbo barely has 500 miles on it and there is something wrong with it already. No turbo will fail that fast from over oiling it and if it is getting enough oil to cause it to fail it will smoke, so any person in their right mind will know that there is a problem and attempt to fix it. He told me that the turbo didn't smoke. My first guess not enough oil, you would spend $2500 dollars on a turbo if you knew there was a chance it would fail with in 1000 miles

I already spoke with badassgsx on the phone, hopefully we will get his problem figured out.