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Fuel Management?

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
I recently got some work done to my head. port and polished 3 way valve job hks cams.V springs. I was wondering if with all this better air flow if I should do some sort of FM. I Pulled the plugs to see if I was running lean and they looked fine. I was thinking of going with the apexi afc2. I was going to wait until I upgraded the turbo but would this be a good idea now?
thanks
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
Of course you should get it if you're going to upgrade your turbo and fuel parts. Your cams and head would go to a waste if you didn't get it. S-AFC isn't the only thing out there though. Which one you get should depend on how much power you're aiming for and how serious you are.
 

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
I was leaning more towards that, being a piggy back I know its not top notch but a couple of my buddies have it and they are pleased. Also I have a front wheel drive and its an everyday driver so Im not looking for anymore than 300-350 Hp.
 

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
Im running a 15 lb boost but at top end it goes to about 13. I got rid of the 12lb spring stock bov and got the greddy S.
 

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
nice. For my goals will I need to get a fuel pressure regulator, bigger injectors. ect.? thanks.
 

gimpybrad

Proven Member
56
0
Apr 28, 2006
Lincoln, Illinois
You will only need to get the fuel pressure regulator, if you upgrade your injector size. With your goals in mind it sounds like that is the direction you are headed.

GO NH! :talon: :thumb:
 

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
Alright thanks sounds good. So could I tune for the cams without a bigger turbo? I am running a little on the lean side. Would it be a big difference, or should I just wait for the bigger turbo and do it all at once? thanks again.
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
If you're tuning because of the upgraded cams, there won't be much of a difference in the tune. You won't have to change it much. I would still just do it for the experience if I was you.
 

andymoraitis

Probationary Member
3,241
148
Jan 25, 2004
Utica, Michigan
Adding cams will require more fuel volume at which point I'd recommend 650's and a 255 HP/AFPR combo. Keep in mind that using an AFC as a sole tuning device is like trying to hammer a nail with a tree stump. I think those things are absolute garbage. You'd do better off with an EPROM ECU and a Keydiver chip with custom A/F maps and timing tables. That way you'd have an eventual stepping stone to DSM Link and not need to worry about high timing from the airflow correction that's a byproduct of running larger injectors.

Just my .02,

Andy
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
Yes, exactly. As I said before it should depend on how serious he is to what he should use to tune. Just like how I prefer to use Autronic instead.
 

JayRolla

Proven Member
5,630
32
Feb 23, 2006
Colorado Spring, Colorado
Come on Andy, its not that bad. Dont make him think that getting a SAFC is going to be impossible to tune correctly. Thats not true at all, tuning 550's and a SAFC is not that hard. You can get some real good power and if all you have is a 16g than its more than enough.
 

talontsi3

Proven Member
68
0
Jul 4, 2006
keene, New_Hampshire
Yeah I understand where andy is going with that no doubt. But also like I said Im not looking for a serious amount of power. Being front wheel drive and everyday driver my goal is 350. And I wouldnt go bigger than 16g neither.
 

drivemusicnow

Proven Member
1,444
30
Nov 15, 2004
Germany, Europe
... Just so you are aware. 350WHP is more than DOUBLE what the car comes with stock. Doubling the horsepower a car makes is not a small task, and does require quite a bit of tuning, especially when 350 is pushing that 16g to its limits. The more you push the limits of a setup, the more you need a very precise tuning tool, rather than a tree stump as Andy so eloquently said.

I think you're underestimating the skill and time neccesary to make 350hp on a 16 g.
 

andymoraitis

Probationary Member
3,241
148
Jan 25, 2004
Utica, Michigan
JayRolla said:
Come on Andy, its not that bad. Dont make him think that getting a SAFC is going to be impossible to tune correctly. Thats not true at all, tuning 550's and a SAFC is not that hard. You can get some real good power and if all you have is a 16g than its more than enough.

While I agree that 550's on an AFC aren't too bad, if you cam the motor, 650's are pretty much a requirement from my direct personal experience. Unfortunately I'll never change my opinion of the AFC no matter how fast others have gone with it. As a sole tuning device it's crap.

drivemusicnow said:
I think you're underestimated the skill and time neccesary to make 350hp on a 16 g.

I have to agree 1000%. Yes it's more than achieveable, but it takes a finer level of control as mentioned above. Fine and control are not something I'd use to describe the AFC's tuning capabilities, especially on anything larger than 550's.
 

JayRolla

Proven Member
5,630
32
Feb 23, 2006
Colorado Spring, Colorado
Yea I see what you guys are getting at. I dont see a problem making 350whp with it though. I agree its the worse tuning device you can get but its better than nothing. I saw a TT supra lay down 600whp with just a safc. Also if he did go with a burned chip, wouldnt he want to keep the safc to fine tune if he added more boost and started leaning out the mixture from what the eprom was set to?
 

andymoraitis

Probationary Member
3,241
148
Jan 25, 2004
Utica, Michigan
It depends Jason. You can run a custom tuned chip with nothing else to compensate as I do, or you can do the custom chip and keep the AFC if you want to lean out a bit for race gas. For the price of an EPROM ECU, Keydiver chip and AFC, I'd just buy DSM Link and be done with it.

I suppose I'm kind of old school in that I like things simple. I tune three parameters (fuel pressure, octane and boost) while monitoring knock. There are tradeoffs to how much you can change, but my current tune allows me 25 psi on pump with zero knock and a max of 1-2 counts when the IC heatsoaks. Besides, having been through close to 25 chips, I can pinpoint what a motor likes on the first try when I make my recommendations for others.

In lieu of running an AFC for race gas purposes with the Keydiver, you can also have a second chip made with a leaner A/F and more timing advance. Chip changes take five minutes so it's not that big a deal.
 

JayRolla

Proven Member
5,630
32
Feb 23, 2006
Colorado Spring, Colorado
Sweet thanks for the explanation. Im going to get a safc mainly to learn how to tune with it and its cheap. Also when I decide to get dsmlink I can sell the safc since its still selling close to full price used. I want to play around with it for myself before I have my real opinion. If I had a eprom I would be going with dsmlink anyways but untill I find one at the junk yard for $15 im going with the safc.

On a side note my brother is about to get cams with his 16g. He is running about 18-19psi with %78-80% injector duty cycles. So will he need 650's or would his 550's handle it.
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
andymoraitis said:
While I agree that 550's on an AFC aren't too bad, if you cam the motor, 650's are pretty much a requirement from my direct personal experience.
That depends on what type of fuel you'll be runnin and what psi. To tune for 18psi on pump with 550ccs and cams is quite easy but 25psi on 110 is a bit more tricky. It's been done safely although you'll be near max on you injectors.
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
JayRolla said:
On a side note my brother is about to get cams with his 16g. He is running about 18-19psi with %78-80% injector duty cycles. So will he need 650's or would his 550's handle it.
I once ran 560ccs on an EVO III w/ S-AFC II (272cams) at 18psi and it was fine until 22psi. That was on pump gas.
 

JayRolla

Proven Member
5,630
32
Feb 23, 2006
Colorado Spring, Colorado
He is also getting meth injection, so im guessing he may run out of fuel then. He also has greddy blue and its a PITA to tune, its so confusing. My mechanic can tune AEM with no problem but wont touch greddy. Wierd
 

v2ner

Probationary Member
791
10
Feb 25, 2004
Madison, Wisconsin
JayRolla said:
He is also getting meth injection, so im guessing he may run out of fuel then. He also has greddy blue and its a PITA to tune, its so confusing. My mechanic can tune AEM with no problem but wont touch greddy. Wierd
Meth injection makes up for fuel...so you can boost more.
 
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