FP 68HTA dyno results

[Boug]

My has a TD05H 20g. That turbo is making a little bit more power than my 68HTA. However his 20g setup requires an external gate, an exhaust manifold set up for the external, and modified LICP. The 68HTA will just bolt right on with almost 20g like performance assuming equal supporting mods. In my opinion, the 68HTA or the 20G is an excellent match for a stock motor, which both my friend and I run. One has slightly more top end (20g) and one spools slightly quicker (68HTA).

This is what I was starting to think.

 

[Zex4g63]

My has a TD05H 20g. That turbo is making a little bit more power than my 68HTA. However his 20g setup requires an external gate, an exhaust manifold set up for the external, and modified LICP. The 68HTA will just bolt right on with almost 20g like performance assuming equal supporting mods. In my opinion, the 68HTA or the 20G is an excellent match for a stock motor, which both my friend and I run. One has slightly more top end (20g) and one spools slightly quicker (68HTA).

Congrats on the win at Beav Dan!

Tim

 

[danl]

Thanks tim. The last T&T day I did I said that the car was so consistent that I could bracket race it. Friday night I did just that and won the whole thing (with a little luck). The only thing that fluctuated was my 60 foots with my old tires. The car, tune, everything was dead on every pass for 7 passes.

 

[dsm-onster]

My has a TD05H 20g. That turbo is making a little bit more power than my 68HTA. However his 20g setup requires an external gate, an exhaust manifold set up for the external, and modified LICP. The 68HTA will just bolt right on with almost 20g like performance assuming equal supporting mods. In my opinion, the 68HTA or the 20G is an excellent match for a stock motor, which both my friend and I run. One has slightly more top end (20g) and one spools slightly quicker (68HTA).

Just to understand what you are saying.... the td05h 20g on that setup could not achieve a level of performance on an internal gate that maches your 68hta setup? or does his 20g not have a 7cm^2 housing?

 

[danl]

His 20g has always had and needed an external gate. It was purchased with a welded wastegate flapper. I have no clue how a 20g runs with an internal gate. From what I understand the larger compressor cover of the 20g makes an internal gate hard to setup, and thus this is why they are usually ran with external gates.

 

[dsmdeliveryboy]

I'm gonna be running a fully ported 18g with a 8cm housing and a 38mm ewg on meth injection/pump, hoping for a little over 400hp and high 11's in a 1G.

 

[danl]

Agreed. As always.


I will also not mention how much shit he's been talking for the past year on everything holset(or anything that isn't an HTA68). But, for that much talk, it doesn't look like you backed any of it up. I admit, that makes me smile. Big time.

11.605 at 126mph on pump gas. Full boost 2800-3000 rpm depending on gear. No special parts needed to bolt it on. You buy it, you bolt it on, you run 126mph, you drive it home on pump gas.

 

[turbotalon1g]

^I'm pretty impressed with that, but not double the cost of normal used E316G.

However, if your car weighs the 2700 in your profile that would explain a lot of it, how much speed were you picking up in teh back half of the track.
I wish you would put some race gas or E85 in that thing and see what it can really do.

These tin cans and low boost setups really are not showing me anything i want to see.

 

[pboglio]

^^^Yes, but sometimes you are pushing the envelope of a standard EVO3 16g and need that extra edge. Not wanting to drop the big coin for an external gate and a 20g for example, the FP68HTA offers that bit extra without paying a big penalty in lag. Its subjective whether its worth $900 if your already stepping from an EVO3 16g. I stepped from a VF39 (small 16g sized) to the FP68HTA, which was definitely worthwhile considering the options I had available.

 

[bsbllfit7]

so a td06h 20g is a better turbo, sorry for any confusion i am looking to upgrade from my evo 3 on my new 2.4l. The lag of a typical td06h on a 2.0 shouldnt be too big a problem on the 2.4. I would love to be able to max out that 20g

 

[danl]

The evo 3 16g is a smoking deal no doubt. Its hard to beat that performance to price ratio. The next step up is a 20g, perhaps with a TDF06H housing. That is going to require an external gate and some intake snorkel fabbing (which isn't a huge deal on most cars). The problem is that the external gates are expensive and you usually have to buy a manifold provisioned for it. So as you can see it becomes expensive very quickly.

That is why the 68HTA is nice. Its 20g like performance but retains 100% stock dimensions with an internal gate. I got mine for $800, I see that they are now more expensive which is unfortunate. However it is still a nice turbo that probably has a little more oomph than a evo 16g and doesn't/t require a manifold and external gate purchase.

I love the 20tg, have yet to personally own a evo 16g, and love the 68HTA. They are all good turbos that have proven reliability and performance with a great price. Just pick the one that makes the most sense for yourr application. I just wanted to give an update for those who wanted to see how the 68HTA is performing.

Last, my car is about 2700lbs. Its light, but mostly this is because it is FWD. Stock fwd's are 2750 lbs. The big slicks eat up MPH, don't forget that. Also it has a roll bar and other safety equipment that adds weight. Its hardly a stripped race car.

 

[AlphaVision]

So, speaking in terms of power band are the Evo3 16G and the FP68HTA comparable. How long does the evo3 hold boost. Will it start dropping the boost sooner than the FP68?

 

[forcefed86]

I wonder if you could leave the 20g internally gated with a dual port actuator. This way you would have boost pressure on the opposite side helping keep the flapper closed. This is basically how an external gate works so well.

I have trouble with my E316G blowing open at 25lbs around 6k. Wish I could find a HD holset actuator with the heavier spring and dual port. Might just have to make one. The first one I listed is the cheapest I've found at $45. OBX sells a unit that looks fully serviceable. This would be nice because you could change out the springs. It is about $90.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T...dZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQitemZ380104072996
http://compare.ebay.com/like/160498...f21571c&itemid=160498646028&ff4=263602_304662

 

[danl]

You guys are making this too difficult. Boost is not horsepower and in some cases shows how restrictive your engine is to airflow. The 68HTA moves 47lbs/min and that is approximately what I am showing doing calculations long hand at 25psi. If you want a turbo to hold more boost just run smaller cams and do whatever you can to reduce the efficiency of the engine.

Furthermore if your wastegate is blowing open the backpressure on blowdown is extreme and you need to address that. Log rpm vs backpressure and watch what happens to VE.

I think I'm getting a good amount of power out of this turbo. I went 126mph on 93 octane at 25psi.

 

[prophecymiller]

I think I'm getting a good amount of power out of this turbo. I went 126mph on 93 octane at 25psi.

Just to help play devil's advocate, a horsepower calculator puts you at ~380hp at the flywheel....that doesn't seem any better than a 16g?

Earlier you mentioned your times between this and the 50 trim. Can you expand a little more on comparing the two? Such as boost pressure on both, mods, fuel etc?

 

[danl]

I assure you it takes a bit more than 380whp to go 126mph in my car. With 420 on a dynojet I went 122 mph. Then I added a little bit of timing (still on E85) and went 124mph a couple weeks back. I then swapped out a set of clogged injectors, put in pump gas, and went 126mph. Thats a 4 mph gain from my 420whp dynojet dyno. With a little better fuel, who knows. Gotta do it before I comment about it.

In 2008 with 419 whp on a mustang dyno I went 129mph with miserable 11.80 ET's on the SCM5031E. I have no idea how much it weighed back then. Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJoWBMB1xCY

I went 11.5x at 130 on the 50 trim, boost was usually in the higher part of the 20psi territory. That was pushing a stock motor to its limits with 110 octane race gas. It was moving coolant every pass and I had a little bit of a tailwind helping out on a 65 degree day. In the heat at norwalk it went 11.5 at 126mph with race gas, no tailwind, and 60 degree day. This was all when I had no cage, lighter summit "arcade" seats, no scattershield, etc... Basically DSE trim for the shootout, I never weighed the car back then.

I added a 6 pt roll bar (~85 lbs) as well as a scattershield (~10 lbs) and heavier Corbeau seats (~20 lbs). I removed the back seats (~20 lbs), run slightly lighter tires, and put in lighter hatch glass (~10 lbs). The car is a bit heavier now than it was back then but I'm not sure how much. Anyways now it goes 11.6 at 126mph, again on pump gas and it was pulling a bit of timing. With better gas and a more optimized timing map it should run a little better.

I also wanted to add that I think my results are inline with others. Lucus is going 132 or so in the quarter when he had the 68HTA in the auto at a similar weight. His car is an AWD so it lays down a much better ET. I did 126 on pump gas and a 7.8:1 stock motor to his E85 and bit more compression. When I get a chance to work on the timing a bit and run better gas I'd like to see 128mph, which is about where the FWD is going to be since I don't even run full boost till third gear which is 500 feet or so down the track.

 

[WADADLIG_EVO]

What injector size are you using. The last person I knew with one of these had to run something higher than 740s.

I don't think you mentioned the injector size.

WADAD

 

[forcefed86]

You guys are making this too difficult. Boost is not horsepower and in some cases shows how restrictive your engine is to airflow. The 68HTA moves 47lbs/min and that is approximately what I am showing doing calculations long hand at 25psi. If you want a turbo to hold more boost just run smaller cams and do whatever you can to reduce the efficiency of the engine.

Furthermore if your wastegate is blowing open the backpressure on blowdown is extreme and you need to address that. Log rpm vs backpressure and watch what happens to VE.

I think I'm getting a good amount of power out of this turbo. I went 126mph on 93 octane at 25psi.

Also, somebody mentioned something about a "stripped down race car". Here are pictures of the "race car".

I hear what your saying on back pressure but it doesn't add up like it does on paper.

I'm full weight and then some (stereo subs etc). My car has all options Ac and my fat 220lb butt in it. I'm trapping 119 with my e316g. (e85 14-16* peak wot timing at rich 11.75 afrs) I think the car easily has 120-121 trap in it with more timing and a leaner mixture.

Prior to me adding additional springs to the WG boost would bleed off to around 20 by 6500rpm. With the addition of the springs my initial spike is larger (buries the 30lb gauge) and I am able to hold 25psi to 6500. This made almost 4mph difference on my slips.

I feel I've pushed this 16g as far as it will take me. I was looking to upgrade the rear housing and possibly go to the 20g wheel in a stock appearing compressor case. I want to keep the factory look but can't justify the money for the HTA unit. I'd throw a 50 shot on it before doing that.

Nice results by the way! I'd love to strip this car, but it's my daily. THe old lady only allows me one "race" car.

 

[danl]

I really don't think you will see the HP change like you would want to on the 20g. In my experience its only worth a couple mph over the evo 16g and will cost a lot of money to get on the car with the external gate and manifold provisioned for the gate. That and your looking at about 3800rpm till full boost on a TD05H housing, that may or may not matter to you. Its up to you but you might just want to enjoy what you have. All three of these turbos (68HTA, Evo 16g, and 20g) are so close that it is more about the overall setup than the actual turbo. I think there are cheaper ways to go faster than changing out that evo 16g.

 

[forcefed86]

I really don't think you will see the HP change like you would want to on the 20g. In my experience its only worth a couple mph over the evo 16g and will cost a lot of money to get on the car with the external gate and manifold provisioned for the gate. That and your looking at about 3800rpm till full boost on a TD05H housing, that may or may not matter to you. Its up to you but you might just want to enjoy what you have. All three of these turbos (68HTA, Evo 16g, and 20g) are so close that it is more about the overall setup than the actual turbo. I think there are cheaper ways to go faster than changing out that evo 16g.

Well said, sometimes it's just so hard to leave it alone!

I was actually considering the 20g wheel and machined 16g comp cover with a larger rear housing or clipped exh. wheel. As you said I don't think the power gain would be worth the money spent.

 

[bsbllfit7]

what about that deal one of the prior guys posted, the one for the balances compressor wheel and td05h comp cover. That sounds like a good option for us people with an existing evo 3 16g

 

[danl]

Well said, sometimes it's just so hard to leave it alone!

I was actually considering the 20g wheel and machined 16g comp cover with a larger rear housing or clipped exh. wheel. As you said I don't think the power gain would be worth the money spent.

Again, I don't think the money spent will net the results that you want. The Evo 16g is a well balanced turbo with a lot of R&D in it. It has really good area under the curve and very good transient response. I think the 68HTA is a really well engineered turbo as well and has a lot of development time into it, but I don't think the money you would spend switching for negligible hp increase would be worth it. Again, keep what you have and look at other ways to make power. Look at the tune, look at cams, look at your FMIC, start breaking down your timeslips to see where it is most beneficial to make the car work better. If you are AWD you need to plant 100% of that power from first gear on and nail the shifts like clockwork.

 

[TSimage]

As soon as I get the 14b dialed in and ran I was planning a 18/20g switch. I already run a 7cm yadda yadda.

What is the level of quality of that 20g kit? What about the ebay turbos normally make them junk?

 

[forcefed86]

As soon as I get the 14b dialed in and ran I was planning a 18/20g switch. I already run a 7cm yadda yadda.

What is the level of quality of that 20g kit? What about the ebay turbos normally make them junk?

With the cheap CNC machining these days I wouldn't have any second thoughts about using the wheel and comp housing. Having a good mitsu center section is the important part. For peace of mind balancing it wouldn't be a bad idea. Esp. since you'll probably be spinning the bejesus out of it.

 

[Steve93Talon]

With the cheap CNC machining these days I wouldn't have any second thoughts about using the wheel and comp housing. Having a good mitsu center section is the important part. For peace of mind balancing it wouldn't be a bad idea. Esp. since you'll probably be spinning the bejesus out of it.

From what I've seen of the Chinese/ebay wheels, they don't have the same blade profile as an MHI turbo, so even if the inducer and exducer are the same diameter, there's no guarantee it'll flow the same. I also wouldn't trust that the machining of the housing was done properly to correctly follow the contour of the blades. There are plenty of tricks that a real shop like FP will do to get maximum flow and spool without surge when machining a housing. You're talking about a negligible difference in cost to go with a real MHI wheel and have your existing housing machined to fit it.

I'd also be surprised to see any real gains from doing it. As danl said, the E16G is a well R&D'ed turbo, the blades are thinner than a 20g. Real world performance gains will be easier to find through other things like intake manifold and cam selection.