EvoIII 16G Install Questions

[mnetwork]

I've done all my base upgrades and all I have left is the turbo and the things that go with it. Going to buy this within two weeks probably. I have some very important questions before I do though...

I am going to be buying everything off of SBR so I had a question about the 2g install kit. I just want to make sure that I will not have to buy a LICP (using the stock intercooler for now) if I get the install kit.. Is this so?

I am doing things in stages so without putting in the afc will I be safe to run at 16psi with the new turbo until then? Would running at 16psi with the 16g be any different than running it with the t25?

How much do you recommend the "$100 Upgrade" shown here >> http://www.slowboyracing.com/more.php?id=93&??

Thank you in advance for the replies.

 

[kenamond]

Don't get the turbo ported. Don't get a larger flapper. Especially if you are going to run 20psi (you are getting aftermarket cams, right?).

I have zero creep at 20psi with my Evo III 16G. In fact, I can turn the boost lower and still not get creep.

If you get the turbo ported, your boost is going to fall in the top end as the exhaust manifold pressure builds up.

I disagree. You don't have a 3" exhaust, but he does. Evo3 creep can go well beyond 20psi. And I don't understand how porting will increase backpressure. Seems to me the opposite would be the case; you have less restriction in the mani/turbo, so the manifold pressures will actually be lower. Please explain.

 

[mnetwork]

Also, can someone explain to me how a larger wastegate flapper helps with boost creep??

 

[kenamond]

Also, can someone explain to me how a larger wastegate flapper helps with boost creep??

Think of it this way.

When you first get on the throttle, it takes some time for your turbine to spin your compressor wheel up enough to hit your desired boost level.

After that, the wastegate opens and starts to divert exhaust around the turbine wheel (so that you maintain that specified level of boost).

So for the rest of your full throttle pull (most of the time), exhaust is going through both the turbine wheel and through the wastegate. The wastegate actuator and your boost controller open that wastegate passage more or less depending on the boost pressure produced by the compressor. If the wastegate is wide open, but it can't flow enough exhaust around the turbine wheel, the exhaust has no choice but to go through the turbine wheel. This drives the compressor harder to produce more boost (beyond what you want) - that's creep. If you have a larger wastegate opening, enough gas can flow through it to control boost level.

However, consider that the whole time you're at full boost exhaust is split between the wastegate and turbine wheel. Therefore, you want the exhaust to be able to flow well through both passages or you have a less efficient setup. That's one benefit to having a well ported turbine inlet - you want gradual curves rather than sharp corners so that the gas can make turns easily.

If you have sharp corners (say from making the turn to go out the wastegate), the gas flow will act as if it has a smaller passage. That's why your normal factory port job may not be adequate; it may make the turbine inlet larger and the wastegate passage larger, but there are sharp corners where the gas has to turn to exit through the wastegate.

So to get a good flowing turbine, you want a large wastegate exit diameter and well contoured passages.

Hope that helps.

 

[mnetwork]

I was under the impression that the upgrade was for the flapper, which didn't make sense to me.... Also, you don't recommend the porting job from SBR??

And would a dump o2 housing help at all because they would seem to be less restrictive at the wastegate...

 

[skinnykenny84]

I'm sorry Kenny, I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about on that one.

a 16g @ 14psi-16psi untuned may not yeild anymore power than what you have now. It wouldn't be wise to run that 16g on what you specified (basically just a rewired 190) until you have: AFC, Injectors, AFPR. At that point there shouldn't be anything stopping you from running 18psi+. The 16g really opens up after 18psi.

Keep it @ 14psi or lower if you care about your engine and want power until you can support that air with fuel.

Sorry exile, Im not sure if YOU know what your talking about....j/k! No, I was looking through my old Turbo mag (Mar 02!), the one with the 3 major dsms on the cover. {J Shepherd, S Glazar, D Buschur} and theres a write up in there on a gvr4 and they add parts and dyno the car after each part. Well heres the run down on what part made how much hp.

*baseline 190.6hp 198.2tq
*k&n filter 201.8 220.3
*DDP cat-back 215.5 243.6
*DDP Downpipe 220.7 254.1
*fmic 251.3 286.4
*DDp high flow cat 259.9 304.1
*Teamrip Mass air 271.5 302.7
*** TDO5-16g 299.1 322.4 +27.6 hp to the wheels
*Apexi afc 307.2 334.6
*TurboXS mbc 319.8 348.7

Notice that gain from the turbo swap was before the addition of the afc and there is still a cat on the car for some reason and still gained near 30hp to the wheels. Now we all know thats about 50 to the crank, so yes, if your car is tuned properly and you have about the same set up (wich he should by the time he adds the 16g) then you should expect about the same results.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Wow, lots of wacky information going on in this thread.

For starters:

Trying to determine how much pressure from the turbo a FP can handle is absolutely worthless. You can run 100psi, but if you are only flowing 2lbs/min of air, any FP will be fine. On the other hand, if you can run 5psi and flow 50lbs/min of air, you better get a bigger pump. Everyone see where I'm going with this???

So please, stop relating the limits of your fuel delivery system to pressure!

Don't go with a larger wastegate flapper unless you want it blowing open at high boost. Force = Pressure * Area, so the larger the wastegate flapper, the more force is applied to the flapper when it is trying to stay shut and build boost. This added pressure causes the wastegate to blow open durning high boost applications. So, if you plan on running low boost on the 16g forever, then a larger flapper is good, but I doubt that you will want to run 12psi forever.

The SMIC is fine for now, although a FMIC wouldn't hurt. I'm running the 16g @ 19psi on the SMIC flowing about 33lbs/min. I only get knock after the 3rd back to back pull when it's about 80 degrees outside from the heatsoak. But there is nothing wrong with lowering your intake charge temps and increasing flow.

I'm also running the EVO III @ 19psi and have no problem with creep on the stock catback and 2.5" DP and 2.5" high flow cat. Along with what ShapeGSX said, I had no issues when I was running lower boost either.

The 190lph FP not rewired can handle 38.72 lbs/min of air at 20psi, running 93 octane fuel(SG of 0.76) and an AFR of 11.3:1. Rewired, the 190 can handle 43.77lbs/min of air at the same specifications. So, if you have a 190, then there is no reason (yet) to get a bigger pump, just rewire it.

The injectors are another story. 450cc injectors are capable of flowing 1.9lpm (all 4). So running 93 octane and an 11.3:1 AFR they can handle 34.35lbs/min of air. Furthermore, it is recommended that you keep your IDC below 85%, which drops us down to 27.75lbs/min.

So, in conclusion, your pump needs to be rewired and you need to get larger injectors.

 

[skinnykenny84]

I was under the impression that the upgrade was for the flapper, which didn't make sense to me.... Also, you don't recommend the porting job from SBR??

And would a dump o2 housing help at all because they would seem to be less restrictive at the wastegate...

Why would anybody in the world not want to port a 16g turbo That just sounds crazy to me. It will help spool up time and flow a lil more air. Now if thats not what you want then by all means...

And about the whole flapper thing, YES you will want to get it upgraded. UNLESS you would like to run an external gate and once again, by all means...
But you deff want to get it ported around the flapper itself. All this combined should eliminate the boost creep problems.

Now I hate to say " go search" but in this case I would recommend it. There is a HUGE thread on exactly this topic and its not that old. If you dont learn to search then this site isnt going to be that helpfull to you.

 

[skinnykenny84]

Im still saying port the w.g. and get the flapper upgraded. Ill just have to agree to dissagree on that one agent 007!

 

[skinnykenny84]

Wow, lots of wacky information going on in this thread.

For starters:

Trying to determine how much pressure from the turbo a FP can handle is absolutely worthless. You can run 100psi, but if you are only flowing 2lbs/min of air, any FP will be fine. On the other hand, if you can run 5psi and flow 50lbs/min of air, you better get a bigger pump. Everyone see where I'm going with this???

So please, stop relating the limits of your fuel delivery system to pressure!

Don't go with a larger wastegate flapper unless you want it blowing open at high boost. Force = Pressure * Area, so the larger the wastegate flapper, the more force is applied to the flapper when it is trying to stay shut and build boost. This added pressure causes the wastegate to blow open durning high boost applications. So, if you plan on running low boost on the 16g forever, then a larger flapper is good, but I doubt that you will want to run 12psi forever.

The SMIC is fine for now, although a FMIC wouldn't hurt. I'm running the 16g @ 19psi on the SMIC flowing about 33lbs/min. I only get knock after the 3rd back to back pull when it's about 80 degrees outside from the heatsoak. But there is nothing wrong with lowering your intake charge temps and increasing flow.

I'm also running the EVO III @ 19psi and have no problem with creep on the stock catback and 2.5" DP and 2.5" high flow cat. Along with what ShapeGSX said, I had no issues when I was running lower boost either.

The 190lph FP not rewired can handle 38.72 lbs/min of air at 20psi, running 93 octane fuel(SG of 0.76) and an AFR of 11.3:1. Rewired, the 190 can handle 43.77lbs/min of air at the same specifications. So, if you have a 190, then there is no reason (yet) to get a bigger pump, just rewire it.

The injectors are another story. 450cc injectors are capable of flowing 1.9lpm (all 4). So running 93 octane and an 11.3:1 AFR they can handle 34.35lbs/min of air. Furthermore, it is recommended that you keep your IDC below 85%, which drops us down to 27.75lbs/min.

So, in conclusion, your pump needs to be rewired and you need to get larger injectors.

Dude know wonder you had no problems with boost creep, you were running the stock cat back and a 2.5" down pipe with a cat on the car!! Now unless Ive been wrong about exhaust for the past 10 years, then I dont get it

 

[spyderturbo007]

Dude know wonder you had no problems with boost creep, you were running the stock cat back and a 2.5" down pipe with a cat on the car!!

I was just throwing out my personal experience with the turbo exhaust combination. I saw that the original poster had a 2.5" DP and 2.5" cat. I realize that the smaller the exhaust, the more backpressure you have, which leads to less of a chance of the turbo creeping, blah, blah. I was just providing some other personal experiences.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Why would anybody in the world not want to port a 16g turbo That just sounds crazy to me. It will help spool up time and flow a lil more air. Now if thats not what you want then by all means...

Do you know that for sure? Or do you just think that is the way it should work?

The point of the snail shape of the exhaust housing is to compress and accelerate the exhaust gasses into the turbine.

When you port out the exhaust housing, the exhaust will have to expand more before it enters the snail. It is actually counter-productive.

Bigger isn't always better.

And about the whole flapper thing, YES you will want to get it upgraded. UNLESS you would like to run an external gate and once again, by all means...
But you deff want to get it ported around the flapper itself. All this combined should eliminate the boost creep problems.

My Evo III 16G is not ported, and it has a stock sized flapper. It doesn't creep at all.

I don't think a larger flapper will help creep at all, actually. The flapper only opens about 1/4", so the exhaust has to flow around the flapper to get out of the exhaust housing and into the O2 housing. A larger flapper will mean that the exhaust has to flow around a larger obstruction.

As well, larger flappers have a tendency to blow open at high exhaust pressures, making it difficult to hold boost at high RPMs.

On top of all of this, there really isn't enough meat in the Evo III exhaust housing to port the wastegate hole out to a size that would make sense for a 34mm flapper valve.

 

[skinnykenny84]

But man your an expert on this. All were doing is confusing the hell out of this guy!

Ill put it in simple terms....and get flammed im sure

If YOU want a 300hp goal then this is what you need
*the 16g turbo you already speak of
*walbro 190
*turbo back exhaust
*afc or eprom chip
*mbc
*intercooler upgrade

now of course you might can squeeze it off with out the intercooler upgrade and run around during the summer heat soaked and what not. But YOU said you wanted to eventualy make 400hp so go ahead and get it.

now everyone on this site is gonna reply with "oh no, you dont HAVE to have that" or "wait hes gonna need this" NO he dont, so lets quit with all the OPINIONS and terms that a noobie that doesnt know much (wich is ok) to begin with and stop running him in circles.

 

[skinnykenny84]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215407&highlight=porting+evo

I guess "OLDMAN" dont know what hes talking about either??
theres about 100 of these threads and related posts and they all come to the same conclusion......porting and wg upgrade??!!!

 

[skinnykenny84]

Where did everone go, this was just gettin good?? I really want to learn how porting a turbo hurts performance.

 

[spyderturbo007]

But man your an expert on this. All were doing is confusing the hell out of this guy!

Ill put it in simple terms....and get flammed im sure

If YOU want a 300hp goal then this is what you need
*the 16g turbo you already speak of
*walbro 190
*turbo back exhaust
*afc or eprom chip
*mbc
*intercooler upgrade

I guess we should just all submit to your infinite wisdom. So you can make 300hp on the stock injectors? He already has a 190lph FP so you can take that off your list. What is he going to do with the EPROM chip, without a EPROM ECU?

now of course you might can squeeze it off with out the intercooler upgrade and run around during the summer heat soaked and what not. But YOU said you wanted to eventualy make 400hp so go ahead and get it.

Eventually, he will need an FMIC, but not now. Do you know how hard it is to make 400WHP on a EVO III 16g??? I highly doubt that is going to happen. Running the 16g around without a FMIC won't hurt anything until you start jacking up the boost through the roof or it's 100 degress outside. I have the logs to prove this!

now everyone on this site is gonna reply with "oh no, you dont HAVE to have that" or "wait hes gonna need this" NO he dont, so lets quit with all the OPINIONS and terms that a noobie that doesnt know much (wich is ok) to begin with and stop running him in circles.

All of the information I have provided was backed by my experience along with mathematical proof. What more do you want? I see by your profile that you don't even use a logger. I have the logs and have done the trial and error......Have you?

I am also very interested in how you KNOW that he has to get a larger flapper? Could you enlighten me on where you came up with this?

 

[ShapeGSX]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215407&highlight=porting+evo

I guess "OLDMAN" dont know what hes talking about either??
theres about 100 of these threads and related posts and they all come to the same conclusion......porting and wg upgrade??!!!

I don't know oldman any better than I know you. But hey, I'll introduce myself to you, it is only polite, after all.

I've probably run a 16G for longer than anyone else in the DSM community. I bought my small 16G back in 1999. I had it ported by TRE at the time. I thought it was a great idea. Unfortunately, the 34mm flapper valve made it so that my boost would fall in the upper RPMs. Best I ever did with that turbo was a 12.4@113mph.

I ran that turbo til I found out about the Evo III 16G in August 2004. Since I was sick and tired of my boost falling in the upper RPMs, I decided to try the turbo without porting it at all and with the stock flapper valve. I didn't care if I got boost creep or not. I bolted it up and I got no boost creep at all. I ran a 12.2@114mph soon after that. I was elated!

That October, I made the "mistake" of turning up the boost higher than I wanted to at the track. I accidentally ran a 29psi spike and the boost settled down to and HELD 26psi. When I launched the car, it felt posessed. Wheelspin like I had never felt before. The E/T sucked, but the trap speed on my timeslip said 118.2mph, which I felt was amazing for a full weight 2G with a 16G at 3315lbs. I held the mph record for the big 16G for a while til Matt Thomas came along and smashed it, running 121 a year or so later.

On May 1st 2005, I was the first guy to run an 11 second E/T with the Evo III 16G in a DSM.

I have hundreds of 1/4mi passes on 16Gs. I have hundreds of autox runs on 16Gs. And I have logged over 100,000mi of driving on 16Gs.

Anyway, yeah, I think I can question pretty much anything I want when it comes to 16Gs. I've been using them for a while.

I try to steer people away from larger flapper valves on 16Gs because I feel that they hurt performance, and possibly don't even help boost creep. But most of all I steer people away from them because it is a mod that you can't undo.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Where did everone go, this was just gettin good?? I really want to learn how porting a turbo hurts performance.

The 3 fastest guys with Evo III 16Gs do not have ported turbos. Why do you feel that it is a benefit to port the turbo? I have yet to see any evidence that it actually improves performance.

Do people with Garrett turbos port them?

 

[skinnykenny84]

I guess because I dont have 4 green dots or run 11s, Im an idiot. I never once said he should, would, could make 400 hp on a 16g.

I also didnt say put an eprom chip in your ecu

As far as the w.g. flapper, read the link I posted and maybe do search yourself every now and then

Im starting to wonder about the whole rep system

 

[2gGSX]

Trying to determine how much pressure from the turbo a FP can handle is absolutely worthless. You can run 100psi, but if you are only flowing 2lbs/min of air, any FP will be fine. On the other hand, if you can run 5psi and flow 50lbs/min of air, you better get a bigger pump. Everyone see where I'm going with this???

This is not completely correct. Assuming fuel pressure rises at a 1:1 rate (like any good FPR should do) then the more boost you run the higher your fuel pressure is. Thus, the higher you boost to reach your airflow goal the more fuel the pump will have to work to supply this fuel. The graph of the flow vs fuel pressure looks basically like a 1/x function (although I actually got this curve from doing a logrithmic regression).

The point of this post is, if you are able to make 40 lbs/min at 20 pounds of boost (so on a 2g, 63 psi fuel pressure) "x" fuel pump will be able to keep up with the flow demands of the injectors. If you look at the same situation and say you make 40 lbs/min at 25 pounds of boost (2g, 68 psi fuel pressure) the fuel pump may have crossed over to the steep decline portion of the graph and thus the extra 5 psi fuel pressure will decrease flow significantly enough to not be able to support the injector demand anymore.

If you want the math behind this let me know on the thread, I'm at work right now and all my data is at home on my laptop.

 

[skinnykenny84]

Well Im not questioning how long or how fast you went on your turbo. Im saying that there is a hundred threads and post on this site stating that when the person upgraded the flapper and ported around the w.g. , then the boost creep problem was solved.

Now maybe the evo316g you had was a better one from the get go than the other hundred people and didnt need attention in that area. Ive seen em where the area around the w.g. look so shitty I wouldnt even by the damn thing.

Why would I need a loger on a car that I dont race and run 14psi in on a t25 that had the wheels upgraded and an exhaust?? You dont know my intentions on this car, so why question that??? Im done with this car. this is my beat around town car.

 

[skinnykenny84]

I guess we should just all submit to your infinite wisdom. So you can make 300hp on the stock injectors? He already has a 190lph FP so you can take that off your list. What is he going to do with the EPROM chip, without a EPROM ECU?



Eventually, he will need an FMIC, but not now. Do you know how hard it is to make 400WHP on a EVO III 16g??? I highly doubt that is going to happen. Running the 16g around without a FMIC won't hurt anything until you start jacking up the boost through the roof or it's 100 degress outside. I have the logs to prove this!



All of the information I have provided was backed by my experience along with mathematical proof. What more do you want? I see by your profile that you don't even use a logger. I have the logs and have done the trial and error......Have you?

I am also very interested in how you KNOW that he has to get a larger flapper? Could you enlighten me on where you came up with this?

does everyone remember me predicting this

 

[skinnykenny84]

this is why forums eventualy suck, gettin way off topic and "I know more than you" type of crap.

Oh, is there some medal out there for the guy that runs the fastest time on a 16g??? Sounds like a waste of time and money to me.

 

[spyderturbo007]

This is not completely correct. Assuming fuel pressure rises at a 1:1 rate (like any good FPR should do) then the more boost you run the higher your fuel pressure is. Thus, the higher you boost to reach your airflow goal the more fuel the pump will have to work to supply this fuel. The graph of the flow vs fuel pressure looks basically like a 1/x function (although I actually got this curve from doing a logrithmic regression).

The point of this post is, if you are able to make 40 lbs/min at 20 pounds of boost (so on a 2g, 63 psi fuel pressure) "x" fuel pump will be able to keep up with the flow demands of the injectors. If you look at the same situation and say you make 40 lbs/min at 25 pounds of boost (2g, 68 psi fuel pressure) the fuel pump may have crossed over to the steep decline portion of the graph and thus the extra 5 psi fuel pressure will decrease flow significantly enough to not be able to support the injector demand anymore.

If you want the math behind this let me know on the thread, I'm at work right now and all my data is at home on my laptop.

Yes, I realize that, I was using extraordinary numbers (100psi) to try and get my point across.

I have done all the math also, as you can see by my post. That is why I made sure to say that the boost during my calculations was 20lbs, specific gravity of 93 octane @ 0.76, rewired or not rewired pump, etc, etc.

 

[spyderturbo007]

does everyone remember me predicting this

I'm still waiting to hear why your opinion is more valid than someone that has experience with these things.

Also, you have neglected to answer my quesitons about how you know that the flapper upgrade is a must? ShapeGSX has shown exactly what I have been saying. With a larger flapper you will loose the ability to hold boost in high applications. It will benefit someone running low boost, but you are toast if you ever want to turn it up. He has proof, where is yours?

ShapeGSX and I, are providing real world experience combined with mathematical and observed data. I see nothing better than that combination.

 

[skinnykenny84]

I answered that about 3 times already. You guys feel like if you fill this guys thread up with alot of big numbers and math that he dont even understand that that will help him. This is the entire purpose of the thread is to help the guy. Go back and read it from the begining and then take a look at it now