2G Electrical Gremlin

[BlazeGT4]

Hi Guys:

1997 Eclipse GSX

I have a series of electrical failures on the car. I am pretty sure they are all being caused by the same thing, but I'm struggling to find the commonality. There is a short 2 part story and I'll list the use/cases.

I left my car in perfect condition for the better part of two months. It was parked in doors and never moved or started. There is no chance of rodent or other vandal tempering with the car. When I returned to the car the battery was dead. It was an optima battery. I jump started the car and let it idle. when I tried to move the car, it wanted to die. I then swapped the optima battery for a new OEM battery and drove home. At this point, I discovered the following:

- power windows did not work
- sunroof worked fine
- climate controls did not work
- factory alarm did not work
- power locks did not work
- turbo timer powered on, the car shuts off when the ignition turns off and the timer stays running (counting down)
- home link did not work
- ac powers on, but no fan so....

On my way home, I discovered that if the car was driven above 2000 RPMs, everything suddenly began to work. My BMW acts funny if the battery dies and it's left like that for extended periods of time, so I figured the car might going through an extended boot or re-learning process. 1.5 hours of driving later, I arrived home, let the car idle and the systems above lost power again. So I parked it in the garage, had the optima battery charged and swapped it out the next day.

Round two, gets a little weird, so again, I'd like to stress that for the last 4 years, there have been zero changes to the electrical system of this car (nothing added or subtracted and everything has worked without issue).

So the next day I went to put gas in the car. On the way back from the gas station the battery light comes on so I figure fine, it's the alternator. I limp it home and for no specific reason I start checking fuses. I find the alternator fuse (the 100amp one) is burnt, so I replace it. I test a few times over the week and it doesn't blow again. The system is charging fine and there does not seem to be a drain on the battery. However, I still have a list of electronics that don't power on or function oddly:

Ignition Powered Off
- turn on the headlights and they stay on, along with the horn (neighbors love that)
- after driving, shut the car off, open the door and the headlights turn on

Ignition On
- HVAC controls are dead
- AC powers on/off (assuming the fan switch is on (however the fan itself does not come on))
- Rear defroster clicks, but the light does not power on
- Hazards power on
- Radio does not power on
- map light on the rear view mirror do not power on
- dash lights power on
- turbo timer powers on, but wont' keep the car running while it times down
- power locks do not work
- OEM remote will not control the locks

What I've Tested
- All of the fuses, inside and out
- All of the relays in the engine fuse box
- Pulled the fuse box and inspected the wires for breaks/stress/cross
- Pulled the horn relay, head light relay stays on
- Pulled the head light relay the horn stays on (if activated)
- Pulled the AC relay (ac doesn't work (duh))

^^ I don't understand why activating the head lights causes the other relay to click/lock on or where the horn relay is getting power from (if nothing is crossed).

So does anyone have a clue as to what all these tie into (power wise)? Specifically, the headlights, horn, and hvac controls. Should I look at the ECU, plan on replacing the harness or...?

 

[ktgurl87]

wow, and i thought my husband's gst was a PITA. i know his likes to run like it's cutting out after the battery dies in it and stays dead for an extended period of time, but then it resets itself and runs right. seriously sounds like something electrical some damn where, and from all the different things messing up, i'd want to say you have more than one thing messed up somewhere. but it's weird how it's all happening at the same time. what are the chances of maybe the turbo timer's wiring getting frazzled at some point during the car's down time? maybe because of the battery doing dead? i dunno guy... you've got me scratching my head atleast on this one. i hope you can track the problem(s) and get it running right again.

 

[BlazeGT4]

The timer is an old GReddy unit and I've heard of them going bad and causing problems. I disco'd the timer tonight (no change). Tomorrow I'll disconnect the whole thing. The timer should be working independently from the rest of the electrical system. The fact that it's not keeping the car running is a flag for me.

 

[luv2rallye]

The headlights and horn symptom sound like your typical alarm system problem. Is it aftermarket? If so, disconnect ALL its wiring, not just disconnect it or pull its fuse.

 

[BlazeGT4]

The headlights and horn symptom sound like your typical alarm system problem. Is it aftermarket? If so, disconnect ALL its wiring, not just disconnect it or pull its fuse.

That makes sense. But it wouldn't explain the HVAC system failures or the odd behavior of the turbo timer. The alarm system on the car is the factory alarm. I'll see if I can find the harness for it and give is a quick disconnect.

I spoke briefly with RRE about this and Mike seemed to think this is an alternator issue. I assume this has something to do with the voltage regulator. I'm not certain if this is a good test, but I ran jumper cables between the 2G and my evo. Turned the igniction on (car remained off) and the control still would not function (and the headlights turn on as soon as I open the drivers door.

Mike normally isn't wrong about this, so I ordered a reman alternator from the dealership. We'll see how that goes.

Thanks for everyone's input.

J

 

[BlazeGT4]

Necro Bump

So I spoke to RRE about this a few months back and Mike suggested the Alternator may be at fault. Specifically the internal voltage regulator. I took the car to the local Autozone and the alternator tested bad (while still in the car).

So after several months of leaving the car parked in the garage, I finally installed the new OEM alternator this past Sunday. Unfortunately, I got no love. As soon as I re-connecte the battery, one of two headlamps came on and most of the cabin controls are off. Specifically: The fan control, radio, home link, and while the turbo timer powers on and stays on during the count down, the car shuts off when turned off.

The electical hardware (wires, relays, etc) are in great condition. ie, no cracking due to age, or moisture damage. I was considering replacing everything regardless and going with a mil-spec harness. But at this point, I don't think it's a random ground causing this level of failure.

Does anyone know if there is a separate ECU that controls these functions?

And if not, does anyone have a few other places I can look for solutions?

Thanks,

J

 

[ktgurl87]

Me thinks the turbo timer is wired horribly wrong and is probably hooked or grounded somewhere it shouldn't be. Have you traced wires from any/all aftermarket additions?

 

[BlazeGT4]

Me thinks the turbo timer is wired horribly wrong and is probably hooked or grounded somewhere it shouldn't be. Have you traced wires from any/all aftermarket additions?

Honestly, I don't think so, since it has worked without issue since GReddy installed it on the car back in 1997.

I wish I could say, "I just installed 'X' and suddenly these issues started." That would be the obvious root cause of the failure. But like I said in the OP, the car had zero issues when I dropped it off at corporate. It sat for 6-8 months there, the battery died and when I got it back is when all this started happening.

However, as I'm writing this, I'm thinking the timer is connected to the ignition, which provides signal for the accessories to power on. When I get home tonight, I'll disco the timer and/or jump the interuption point and see if that makes any difference.



I really just want to look down and find something simple so I can face palm myself and move on.

 

[dangler]

All those items get there power from the fuse box in the engine compartment. You might want to get your multimeter and check for power at those fuses. Visually inspect it again. If your headlights and horn are the only things acting up I would check those fuse and relay terminals first. Suspected a bad fuse box.

Ok, disregard my last post. I was jumping to conclusions before I finished looking at the diagrams. So you say when the ignition is off, you turn the headlights on and then they won't turn off. So, turn the headlights on and then disconnect the combination switch (10pin connector)on the steering column. If the lights turn off then you have a bad switch. If they stay on, the only thing between the switch and the relay is jumper connector 1, B07. That connector is located behind the instrument cluster. Most of the other systems you mentioned pass through that connector. If it does stay on after disconnecting the switch, pull the relay and check for continuity to ground on that wire. My copy of the diagram cuts off the wire color. So it's not the red wire that splits into two reds into the relay, and it's not the red/blue wire, it's the other wire. If it has continuity to ground, then definitely check behind the cluster.

B07 33 pin connector. Looks just like and is right next to B08, don't mistake them. pins 30 from relay, 31 to switch. Both should be the same color as at the relay.

 

[karbon]

Blaze, you're not alone. I pulled my DSM from storage. It's been sitting about a full year now, and I've only started it a few times to move it around. It's currently sitting in my garage and I found a buyer last night. Car fires up fine with a brand new battery and runs like a champ, but power seats and windows are dead. He drive it about 20 minutes, pulled over to gas it up after the gauges started dimming, and the car died on him. I know about 20 minutes is all you have to run on battery alone, so he calls me up and I suggest he try and jump it. He can get it to turn over, but ultimately not start. Brand new battery bought hours before is dead as a doornail, but will hold a charge and fires up the car which dies soon afterward.

Hours later, it's back in my garage on a flatbed and I have my title back, he has his money back minus a deposit because he's a long time acquaintance of mine and REALLY needs a DD. He said that prior to the car dying out completely, the power seats and windows miraculously started working again, and when they weren't working, the headlights were stuck on.

Also like your situation, I parked the car for about 8 months, moved the car, parked it for another few months, then moved it to my place to fix up to sell. The car was in perfect running condition and upon having it back at my house, the following things worked:

• Sunroof
• Headlights (but stay on after the key is removed)
• Horn
• Emergency flashers
• Wipers

And the following things were magically dead or did not work:

• Power locks
• Power windows
• Turbo timer (would count down but not function in turning the car off)
• Power seats
• Rear defroster
• Heater blower (but the AC light cycles correctly)
• Map light

The HVAC I disassembled completely, checking the relay, blower, combination switch on the column, resistor, fuse, and the control unit. If you haven't done it yet, don't bother to take the control unit out, what a bi*** of a job. The blower is really bad to get at one of it's screws, too. Everything on the blower tested out fine so I put it back together, turn the car on, and it blows fine but weak. The fact that the battery won't keep a charge makes me think alternator as well, and I'm going to get one anyway so I can rule it out, as well as strip and clean all the wiring for it. I also have an OLD HKS turbo timer which I'll be removing and restoring the wiring to stock.

It sounds like we're having the same problem, so I'm going to grind away at it and if you find a solution PLEASE post back here. If I find one, I'll let you know.

Edit: I also opened up the ECU to check for burnt out caps or funny smells and everything looks fine in that department.

 

[BlazeGT4]

Wow. That is EXACTLY the same situation!
Even down to the length of time the car was sitting!

My alternator tested bad and I replaced it with the OEM. But I'll bet if I bring the old unit into the local parts store it will test out fine. I replaced the battery with a new cell and as you already know, none of that helped.

The last thing that I did before leaving the car on display was to unplug and remove both of the seats (the drivers one with the power options) I rather doubt that had/has anything to do with it though.

Thank you for the heads up on the HVAC controls and ECU. That's one less place I need to check.

I'll do some more in depth electrical testing this weekend and report back with my findings.

Thanks

 

[karbon]

The autozone alternator test really only rules out catastrophic failure of the voltage regulator, and isn't a good indicator of a bad alternator. I'm thinking mine's probably toast, but it also tested fine when I took it out this summer when I moved it and the car wouldn't hold a charge. Ended up my Optima was really really dead. Every time I've moved the car, I used a fresh charged battery from my Evo and never had to drive more than 10 minutes, so I was probably driving purely on battery power and hence never noticed a charging problem. If I replace the alternator and STILL have a charging problem, I'll be at a complete loss for explanation.

Edit:
So I started ripping out the turbo timer and found something "interesting". Attached is a picture of the ignition main plug from the vehicle side (male) and the turbo timer harness (female). The last thing I did before I parked the car was attempting to tear out the shitty rats nest or wiring from the PO. In doing so, I accidentally dead shorted the radio's makeshift 12v constant wire by accident. I guess it went back through the ignition harness and made a mess. After seeing this I broke out the electrical FSM out and looked at everything powered by the fried wire (white). You'll never guess what systems receive power through that wire: power seats, HVAC, radio, alarm system, power windows, rear defroster, map light, etc. Every single system I've had trouble with is on the list. Also the charging system is on that list! The stator's field coil is powered by it. I checked the alt. 100A fuse and sure enough, it's blown. I couldn't see it before but I KNEW after the wire getting that hot, it had to have blown the fuse; there was a little gap that I couldn't even see without getting really close.

So the problem with the charging system is basically discovered, and I'm willing to bet that the problem with the other systems is that they can't get enough current through the white ignition wire because of the corrosive buildup and melted plug crud that's all over the terminal. I'm going to clean it up with a wire brush, plug it in, and see what happens. If the fuse blows again, I'll have some more work to do. Hopefully your problem is similar in that maybe this wire is corroded on your car, or you have a hairline crack in the alternator fuse or something. Hope this helps!

Update:
Cancelled my alternator order last night, bought a $4 fuse instead. Finished removing the turbo timer, took a brass brush to the ignition plug contacts, plugged it in, jumped it, car started up like a champ. I unhooked the jumped cables to make sure it ran on it's own power--it does! I tested power seats, heater, headlights, power locks, defroster, emergency flashers, sunroof, wipers, etc. and everything works amazingly. Going to swap the plug with the one with the turbo timer just for good measure, but I fixed the core problem. Car ran fine for 15 minutes straight.

 

[j_biggz]

Okay this all sounds like what I am having a problem with but I dont have all the same symptoms. I have a 97 gst that the PO butchered the stereo wiring harness an had wires running everywhere with no kind of consistency. Im talking reds hooked up to blacks and a mess of other random wires. Me being the perfectionist that I am wanted to get rid of this rats nest and clean it all up. So I began taking it all out an getting down to the factory wires. After I did that I could not find the constant for the stereo at all.

Needless to say I got it all to work but when it was all said an done the car wont start. I just get clicking from the left side of the dash an acts like the battery is dead. I tried jumping it an no luck along with a couple trys at a push start. So what I am worried about is that the constant 12V+ is missing an probably doing something bad. I really new to DSMs an mines only a couple weeks old. Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. I just wanted to clean it up after some hack job but looks like its dead in the water. I am having the same problem with my alternator not charging as well.

 

[karbon]

Needless to say I got it all to work but when it was all said an done the car wont start. I just get clicking from the left side of the dash an acts like the battery is dead. I tried jumping it an no luck along with a couple trys at a push start. So what I am worried about is that the constant 12V+ is missing an probably doing something bad. I really new to DSMs an mines only a couple weeks old. Any help or info would be greatly appreciated. I just wanted to clean it up after some hack job but looks like its dead in the water. I am having the same problem with my alternator not charging as well.

Yeah this is a completely different problem. You might want to start a new thread for it even, so more people can help you out. Our problem here was that the white ignition wire on pin 1 wasn't carrying enough current and causing all sorts of weird intermittent problems with all devices that draw power from it.

As for your problem, I'd just retrace your steps as best as possible, download the electric factory service manual and learn to read the electrical diagrams (it has a decent section on learning how to read them). Then just trace it back on the diagram to a harness or junction where it SHOULD be and check things out. It sounds like you did probably short something, so I'd check your fuses.

 

[j_biggz]

I know this sounds stupid but I am really new to the forum an havent figured out how to post new threads yet. Can even if Im still a " lurker"?

 

[99gst_racer]

I know this sounds stupid but I am really new to the forum an havent figured out how to post new threads yet. Can even if Im still a " lurker"?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/sit...cant-post-certain-forums-classifieds-why.html

 

[j_biggz]

I posted a new thread in the newbie forum so maybe I can get some help

 

[BlazeGT4]

Well this weekend was good and bad for me.

I took apart the dash and disco'd everything aftermarket.
I retested the connections and inspected for damage. Nothing. Everything looks new.

So I start going through the fuses in the engine bay and what do you suppose I find? The 60 amp, next to the 100 amp is blown. I'm pretty certain this wasn't blown before since I tested everything in the box a month ago when I pulled the box out to look for burnt wires there.

I bought the 3 dollar fuse, and nearly everything came back to life. The OEM radio is still without power and the turbo timer has power, but won't keep the car running for some reason. (it's probably getting power from the radio and THAT fuse probably popped. I gradually started connecting everything else back and it looks like problem solved.

I ran a hot lap around the city to charge the battery back up and I'm satisfied that the problem has been resolved. So that's a 300 dollar alternator that I bought and installed for nothing. But at least it's fixed after 8 months.



Thank you everyone who contributed to this thread. I consider the matter resolved.

Best,

Blaze