Daily Driver Mods, Opinions Wanted!

[kccombs]

Wow. This post is all over the place. How about we stick to the thread and leave the bs at the door. Thats my .02

 

[necrotopsy]

okay... so... I've so far owned 3 420a cars.

First one was a automatic, which i put cold air intake, rims, and muffler.

second one was a fully built 400 WHP range turbo. 26 psi on t04e (44lbs min) plus water injection. Manuel

third, and current one, is a manuel with headers, high flow cat, 2.5" exhaust, vibrante res, magnaflow muffler, AEM cold air intake, MSD coilpack, MSD wireset, removed A/C - P/S belt (actually plan on removing A/C)
car has almost 170k miles on it, and on a dyno made 111 WHP and 119 WTQ (note, only performance mods are listed, more is done)

this is just stated to add credibility to my following statements:

My current car is probably in the range of what you would be looking to do. all these "performance" mods make the car SOUND fast, and LOOK cool under the engine bay. guess what i got in a 1/4" mile? 16.9 @ 91 mph. which for an avenger is exactly the same as stock.

these mods move the power band more towards the top end, but don't really make the car any faster. it just sounds faster.

my opinion? if all you want is to make your car more fun to drive, put on a magnaflow muffler, leave the rest stock. go to autozone and get a spectre filter and put it on your stock intake pipe. (yes it can be done, and i've seen it a lot). lower it with good quality suspension. get a short throw shifter (i recommend the B&M if you can find it on e-bay). get rims (at least 7" wide and 225 series tires) and good tires. get steel braided brake lines.
and possibly (this is pushing it) Port your stock throttle body to 55mm, and port match the intake manifold.

i believe the world record for a N/A 420a is in the 220 WHP range running 13 second 1/4 miles. (and this is a full track car, not a street car. slicks and everything)

420a's don't like to stay N/A sorry to say. you want speed, go turbo. nothing else will do it.

and become a member here:

http://www.2gnt.com

they are much nicer to us n/a folks. that forum is dedicated to 2g N/A's

 

[jcart953]

okay... so... I've so far owned 3 420a cars.

First one was a automatic, which i put cold air intake, rims, and muffler.

second one was a fully built 400 WHP range turbo. 26 psi on t04e (44lbs min) plus water injection. Manuel

third, and current one, is a manuel with headers, high flow cat, 2.5" exhaust, vibrante res, magnaflow muffler, AEM cold air intake, MSD coilpack, MSD wireset, removed A/C - P/S belt (actually plan on removing A/C)
car has almost 170k miles on it, and on a dyno made 111 WHP and 119 WTQ (note, only performance mods are listed, more is done)

this is just stated to add credibility to my following statements:

My current car is probably in the range of what you would be looking to do. all these "performance" mods make the car SOUND fast, and LOOK cool under the engine bay. guess what i got in a 1/4" mile? 16.9 @ 91 mph. which for an avenger is exactly the same as stock.

these mods move the power band more towards the top end, but don't really make the car any faster. it just sounds faster.

my opinion? if all you want is to make your car more fun to drive, put on a magnaflow muffler, leave the rest stock. go to autozone and get a spectre filter and put it on your stock intake pipe. (yes it can be done, and i've seen it a lot). lower it with good quality suspension. get a short throw shifter (i recommend the B&M if you can find it on e-bay). get rims (at least 7" wide and 225 series tires) and good tires. get steel braided brake lines.
and possibly (this is pushing it) Port your stock throttle body to 55mm, and port match the intake manifold.

i believe the world record for a N/A 420a is in the 220 WHP range running 13 second 1/4 miles. (and this is a full track car, not a street car. slicks and everything)

420a's don't like to stay N/A sorry to say. you want speed, go turbo. nothing else will do it.

and become a member here:

2GNT.com - index

they are much nicer to us n/a folks. that forum is dedicated to 2g N/A's

wow how much hp/whp do you get stock?

 

[Fotowntalon]

wow how much hp/whp do you get stock?

140hp stock, which translates into about 120whp brand new, after 15 years of wear and tear, you are normally between 100-115whp

 

[jcart953]

140hp stock, which translates into about 120whp brand new, after 15 years of wear and tear, you are normally between 100-115whp

Ahh gotcha didn't even think about that. Well cant wait to take mines to the dyno later this month ought to be an interesting day .

 

[4g63tc]

Sad to say, basically treat it like a Honda, Intake, and exhaust.

Is your car an Auto?, If so the final drive gears from a "cloud" car will improve the response from the transmission, and topend.

*cloud cars...Chrysler sirrus, Dodge stratus.

 

[knochgoon24]

You'll probably get more enjoyment putting money into the suspension and handling components that you would power parts.

-Tires
-Coilovers
-Sway bars
-Brakes

Then enjoy the car.

 

[Iodes]

Yeah it's an automatic, but I like shifting manually, especially going up on ramps and when I'm in the city cause it's constant stop and go.

Thank for defining cloud cars, I kept reading that term and wondering what it meant. If I go turbo I will definitely be looking for a way to improve my transmission.

 

[4g63tc]

Yeah it's an automatic, but I like shifting manually, especially going up on ramps and when I'm in the city cause it's constant stop and go.

Thank for defining cloud cars, I kept reading that term and wondering what it meant. If I go turbo I will definitely be looking for a way to improve my transmission.

The absolute best mod you can do, for your Auto N/T, the one that will make more of an Impact than doing anything else...

Change the final drive gears..

 

[jcart953]

The absolute best mod you can do, for your Auto N/T, the one that will make more of an Impact than doing anything else...

Change the final drive gears..

To be honest I haven't looked up or searched for the answer (as I'm at work) but why is that important?...and benefits will it it give ??

 

[Myndvast]

Look my car is a DD and N/T and I love it. I have done some mods and I am happy with them, but then again I was looking to tweek performance a little and not drag the car or try to get it to perform like a turbo. So far I have added a header, aftermarket muffler, racing plugs, cold air intake, K&N filter additions, etc. and I can honestly say there is a positive change in the way car responds and there is a bit more horsepower. Overall, the car is quicker which in my opinion is a nice addition to it being so nimble through corners, curves, and mountain runs without over powering it. The car is really fun to drive at its current setup so why mess with that any further? Of course, I am looking to get an TSI AWD to go to the next level instead of taking my talon to turbo status. Then I will have two talons; one for work and one for play. Its cheaper and you can get AWD for about same as turboing your current DD. As far as it being a waste of money, well that depends on who is spending the money. I meet plenty of people that want my car because they see how it performs. So I guess what I am saying is there is a point where it may be best to review a different option, but enjoy your car nonetheless.

Oh, and in addition, I just recently bought OEM foglights for mine and I got them for like 40 bucks at a salvage yard in super great condition. It was simple plug and play on the install as well. All my mods together cost way less than $1000 too. So you can mod, but ask yourself what you want to do with the car. It may mean you should look to choose differently.

 

[4g63tc]

To be honest I haven't looked up or searched for the answer (as I'm at work) but why is that important?...and benefits will it it give ??

The eclipse Uses a final drive ratio of 3.9

Cloud cars have a final drive ratio of 3.5

About $100 in parts will net you an end result of quicker acceleration. It's better explained in these threads.

2GNT.com Forums - Viewing topic - Final Drive Mod timeslips & pics

2GNT.com Forums - Viewing topic - Attn: Corbin!!! ATX FAQ's

2GNT.com Forums - Viewing topic - How much did the Final Drive help?

 

[91stocker]

I can honestly say there is a positive change in the way car responds and there is a bit more horsepower. Overall, the car is quicker which in my opinion is a nice addition to it being so nimble through corners, curves, and mountain runs without over powering it.

Obviously a sort of placebo effect from the increased noise. 5hp gain in a 3000lb+ car is not a difference you can feel. More as if the car is louder in turn sounds faster, so it must be right?

The eclipse Uses a final drive ratio of 3.9

Cloud cars have a final drive ratio of 3.5

About $100 in parts will net you an end result of quicker acceleration. It's better explained in these threads.

I hope you have those ratios backward. Putting a taller gear in the car would not increase acceleration especially is a ridiculously underpowered car such as the 2g n/t. What i mean is 3.9 > 3.5.

Plus the parts may only cost 100 but its going to cost you 1k+ to have the trans pulled and rebuilt properly. No sense in pulling it to put the old shit back in.

 

[4g63tc]

Obviously a sort of placebo effect from the increased noise. 5hp gain in a 3000lb+ car is not a difference you can feel. More as if the car is louder in turn sounds faster, so it must be right?



I hope you have those ratios backward. Putting a taller gear in the car would not increase acceleration especially is a ridiculously underpowered car such as the 2g n/t. What i mean is 3.9 > 3.5.

Plus the parts may only cost 100 but its going to cost you 1k+ to have the trans pulled and rebuilt properly. No sense in pulling it to put the old shit back in.

I'll go back and look i was half-asleep.
While the tranny is pulled, why not rebuild it

 

[Iodes]

While the tranny is pulled, why not rebuild it

The kid I bought it from had it rebuilt before he sold it, there's a receipt in my glove box for it. My fiance has a friend who is good with transmissions, I think if I got those final drive gears he would swap them for much less than a shop would charge. Someone on this site actually has a classified ad for them, but he hasn't emailed me back $50 sounds like a sweet deal though!

 

[dropped99gs]

I bought my GS almost a year ago. Since then I've done a most of the typical bolt ons, diy stuff. I.E. cai w/ new spectre filter, 2 1/2" exhaust, gutted cat, Tusdo Fireball Muffler, NGK plugs, accel wires, new ignition coil, lowering springs, good set of new tires, DIY rear camber kit and numerous other small things not related to performance.
The one add on that I will be making soon is a header and down pipe.

I've spent about $3k this last year after buying the car. That's including new set of tires, timing belt job, new deck, speakers, and subs.

That all being said here is why I've done what the dyno says to be pointless mods. In the end to me, its all about having a reliable well running vehicle. If i can help my engine operate better and keep her running stronger longer then I can put reason behind why I spent the money I have.

A new ignition coil, plugs, and upgraded plug wires will ensure better fuel ignition. Resulting in smoother idle, operation, and high rpm performance.

Freeing up the intake and exhaust takes some stress off of your engine. Fuel mileage goes up some.
Upgrading the size of the exhaust doesn't have any +/- effect HP wise, just a deeper exhaust note.
Muffler is all up to you, but please DO NOT get a chepo fart can muffler. You don't have to spend big $ on a muffler for a good sound. Do some research, look for sound clips/vids form what someone else has already done.


In the end without spending some serious $$$ you will never really see real HP gains from anything.

Rather than worry about making more ponies, set your focus on reliability and drive-ability.

Getting to drive my car every day is a treat for me. I walk up and see the work i've done. I get in and see more work i've done. I push in the clutch, turn the ignition and once again fruits of my labor. turn up the volume and hear the crispness of a custom audio system.
Then the real pleasure begins. Just simply driving my baby around town. Having a 12 year old car that turns heads in a good way because I've put blood, sweat and tears from bumper to bumper. It makes my day.

Example - Last week I was driving on a major highway in Dallas. Just cruising, didn't even have the music on. Just enjoying the drive and how nice of a day it was. Look over to my left and I a guy riding shotgun in a civic starring at my car. At first I was wondering if something was wrong because how hard he was starring. Soon we made eye contact follow buy as I changed lanes making my way over to the exit lane.

IMO I think think you should keep the major performance mods to a minimum and work on fine tuning your ride. Keep it simple and straightforward. Improve its basic drive-ability qualities and some aesthetics features. Keep it going long enough to save for a project car if you ever want to build an engine and get some boost in your life.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[Fotowntalon]

Upgrading the size of the exhaust doesn't have any +/- effect HP wise, just a deeper exhaust note.

Agree with everything but this

 

[dropped99gs]

Agree with everything but this

Which part, hp or exhaust tone?

 

[WES_393]

NA engines suffer from an open exhaust due to lack of back pressure. Turbo engines can use 3" pipes or even open down pipes and not suffer a loss of power since the turbo gives the proper back pressure. CAI's can have the same effect. Ever notice that SMIM's kill torgue? It's from the lack of twists and turns. Take away the factory restrictions from the stock intake and you might add a few HP, but how much torque will you kill? So IMO, high flowing intake and exhaust will make your car sound "better", but will NOT give you anything in terms of power. Like said before, it's a placebo effect. And just like that article showed, $1200 and they got 4 hp and something like 15 ft/lbs of torque. Not a notable difference at all. For $1200 your halfway to a 1g turbo AWD. Treat it just like you would a Neon. Take care of it, mod the suspension, make it look good, and save up for a CORRECT turbo upgrade or turbo car. Other than that, it's just a waste of money.

And personally, I'd rather have a stock NA Eclipse than one with open intake/exhaust. Honestly, there is nothing more annoying than an NA 4 cyl screaming for dear life at high RPM's.

 

[Myndvast]

Obviously a sort of placebo effect from the increased noise. 5hp gain in a 3000lb+ car is not a difference you can feel. More as if the car is louder in turn sounds faster, so it must be right?.

Sorry, there is no placebo effect in what I've experienced with the way my car responds now that I have made these mods (over time) vs. how it responded in completely stock form. If you notice, I didn't say much if anything about increased noise. It doesn't matter to me. I bought my car because of the way it handled and ran in stock form, not its sound or noise. I also didn't state any huge gains. What I did say was there was a positive change in the way the car responds and there was a bit of a horsepower gain. Key words being "responds" and "bit." I told the truth and I didn't overblow performance.

If someone decides to mod their car, its a good idea to consider what they are looking for in their desired result (which he has done per his original post.) He wants a smidgen more power, maybe a turbo setup, and possibly a rally worthy result later. Because of that, he is looking at options and sought advice. Good move on his part. I simply gave him the benefit of my experience with essentially the same car.

For the thread starter ... Here are a couple of videos where DSM's are rallying through some curves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABfrPPTZn4s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltHw0E_lERw&feature=related

 

[Fotowntalon]

Which part, hp or exhaust tone?

HP. If anything, proper exhaust size is even more important in an NA than a Turbo car. Go to big and you lose a lot of your low end, go to small and you kill your top end. A Properly sized exhaust will add a few ponies across the spectrum.

NA engines suffer from an open exhaust due to lack of back pressure. Turbo engines can use 3" pipes or even open down pipes and not suffer a loss of power since the turbo gives the proper back pressure. CAI's can have the same effect. Ever notice that SMIM's kill torgue? It's from the lack of twists and turns. Take away the factory restrictions from the stock intake and you might add a few HP, but how much torque will you kill?

So much misinformation here... Back pressure is BAD FOR ALL CARS!!! Inform yourself some here http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/fre...8578-exhaust-straight-scoop-backpressure.html
As for intakes, especially intake manifolds, its more about your set-up, and once again you want careful consideration in an NA car as opposed to a turbo application. You need to balance runner length for increased torque, with how high revving you want to go. Shortening runners normally give more top end HP, but yes you will suffer losing TQ, it all depends on set-up and current mods and goals.

In an NA application its more challenging yes to make a proper build. You need to plan out your build, unlike *most* (not all) turbo cars where its basically universal bolt on to increase upgrade.

Like said before, it's a placebo effect. And just like that article showed, $1200 and they got 4 hp and something like 15 ft/lbs of torque. Not a notable difference at all.

Lets not forget that is the MSRP PACKAGE PRICE . I mean seriously, you can get a full exhaust for a few hundred (and its gains will help overtime as opposed to looking at the straight auto-bolt on numbers on a stocker). Bypass valve isnt really needed, $250 on an intake>? Seriously? In Project car they have a nice thing where when they lay out a bid they have "MSRP" column right next to the "street" column. You should be able to get all those things for under $500, and once again, these are base numbers you are getting, the numbers for performance change will be measured by other mods. In the NA world everything needs to flow together.

Lastly, i don't know about you, but 15lbs is a considerable difference.

 

[rbwtrans]

The kid I bought it from had it rebuilt before he sold it, there's a receipt in my glove box for it. My fiance has a friend who is good with transmissions, I think if I got those final drive gears he would swap them for much less than a shop would charge. Someone on this site actually has a classified ad for them, but he hasn't emailed me back $50 sounds like a sweet deal though!

I just wanted to add that the transmission (Chrysler a604) doesn't have to be pulled to replace the gears. They are under the black cover that you see from the driver's fenderwell.

 

[dropped99gs]

"HP. If anything, proper exhaust size is even more important in an NA than a Turbo car. Go to big and you lose a lot of your low end, go to small and you kill your top end. A Properly sized exhaust will add a few ponies across the spectrum. "

I completely agree with that statement. And I also agree with the least amount of restriction you have in an exhaust the better. With the 2.25" stock pipe just delete the catalytic converter with either a test pipe or high flow cat. Nice unrestricted muffler and that is about where you will peak out on hp gains. Like you said with going big and losing low end and small killing the top end. I noticed when I went from 2.25" to 2.5" I lost some low end but the smoothness I could feel throughout the rpm range. By that I mean the sound, feel of the car, not just talking about the air, but the flow of the car just seemed more smooth.
But stock exhaust are stock exhaust and should be done away with IMO with any car I ever purchase.

 

[WES_393]

From the link above: "In order for the fluid to flow at all, the pressure on one end of the pipe must be higher than at the other."

So if we reduce pressure across the entire pipe we have also reduced the pressure difference which will reduce flow. While pressure doesn't always equal flow, in this case it does. So more pressure at the beginning will force more exhaust out at the end due to an extreme pressure difference. At least this is what he began to say. Then he had a change of heart and decided that we need to decrease the pressure drop to increase flow. Actually, increasing the pressure difference between both ends of the pipe will give more flow. While we can't change the pressure of the atmosphere, we can change the pressure inside the pipes. How? By giving the exhaust twists, turns, or even smaller diameter's to create backpressure. Yes, there is such a thing as too small, but I think it's much easier to go too big. If I'm horribly wrong please let me know. But I think my theory is just as legit as his. And I didn't have to resort to 6500hp cars or 1" pipes to explain it.

 

[Iodes]

I just wanted to add that the transmission (Chrysler a604) doesn't have to be pulled to replace the gears. They are under the black cover that you see from the driver's fenderwell.

Sweet. That makes me feel a lot better... I can't afford for my car to be down for too long.

I paid for the final drive gears... err, yesterday... When did it get so late? Lol. They're getting shipped today!

I live in Washington and as far as I know we don't have emissions testing except in King county which contains all the metro cities like Seattle and its divisions. So I would actually like to get rid of the catalytic converter when I get exhaust.

You guys keep talking about proper sizing, so what diameter of pipe do you recommend? Most of the ones I see are either 2.5" or 3" pipe with 3" or 4" tips. Will cat-back exhaust bolt up to cat delete pipe?
Would this cat delete kit be okay? Yall said OBX wasn't very good quality...

Product Name - OBX Racing Sports