Coilover Gurus Needed

[habitatguy187]

So the first thing I want to buy for my new car is the suspension components, and I figured I'd start with the coilovers since they'll be the most expensive item. On to what I'm looking for:

I want a car that's going to handle GREAT, I'll actually have it set up for autox/road racing rather than drag racing. I don't want to spend more than $1200 shipped for my coilovers (more than what I paid for the car ), but I'd like to get the most bang for my buck. I.E.: If there's $1200 coilovers that are just a tad bit better than some $1000 coilovers, I'll probably go with the $1000 ones. If there's a good-sized difference between the two then I'll spring for the extra $200.

There's a few key things I'm interested in discussing:

1. Damping - If I'm understanding it correctly a good damping coilover is what gives you a ride that soaks up bumps without sacrificing performance, is this correct? If so is there a coilover that is known for good damping?

2. "Dyno" tuning - I've read that it's an absolute necessary to do if you want a properly setup suspension, which I do. I suppose I'll also have to get the car corner weighted when it's finished and adjust the coilovers accordingly?

3. Ride Height - I want to run 16" wheels so I probably won't be lowering it too much really, I kinda like the way they sit stock. I'm very open to suggestions here though.

I've been driving Vettes here at work and the stability they offer at high speeds coupled with their decently-forgiving ride on bumpy roads has me raising my standards as far as what I want from my car. I already plan on spending big bucks on tires and getting some Rota Slipstreams (wheel of choice as of right now). I'll be doing a lot to try and bring the unsprung weight of the vehicle down which should help with rough roads.

 

[snowborder714]

Good luck finding a $1200 coilover that you want to see the dyno results from. Or being able to afford to put them on a dyno (they don't bolt up) on that budget.

Dampening is how the suspension responds to a deflection (i.e. a speed bump or pot hole). A properly dampened shock will cycle once in response to a deflection.

There's lots of good reading on this site (see the navigation on the left for more sections).
Autocross to Win (DGs Autocross Secrets) - Suspension

 

[habitatguy187]

I guess my question now is:

Since a $1200 coilover setup won't come with dyno results, should I even bother or step up to something more expensive? Is a ~$1200 coilover setup not enough for an above average suspension setup, or would it just be good for drag?

I've never even touched my suspension before and it just seems like there's soooo much to learn about it. I might just end up trying to copy Luda's setup .

 

[Ludachris]

Check the Tech Guide for the Road Race setup for a 1g. Also do a search for titles in the Road Race forum for "coilovers", lots covered in there.

And for a quick/dirty answer - you're asking a lot for $1200, but that's typical of a DSMer. You're describing a $2k+ coilover kit. As I tell everyone, the only two kits available that I'd go for on a 1g is a Muellerized JIC kit or a HotBits kit - both are probably twice the price of your budget. I hear RobiSpec is looking into customizing a KW kit to work, which I'd jump on immediately, but there's very little chance it would sell for less than the other two kits I mentioned. Good coilovers are not cheap, even in the DSM world...

Your best bet is probably to go with what every other 1g owner on a budget chooses for serious handling - a set of Koni shocks and Ground Control perch kit. Konis are widely believed to be a better product than the sub-$2k coilover kits on the market for our cars. They don't seem as elegant since they're not a true coilover, but the quality of the parts is believed to be better by the people who have actually gone racing.

If you're still sold on trying to choose a true coilover within your budget, I don't have a recommendation. They'll probably all feel pretty sporty and might put a smile on your face in the turns. But they are not racing coilovers and won't perform better than the Koni/GC kit. And trying to distinguish between any of the kits in your budget is pretty much a waste of time. They're all very similar, and all are made for the street. A $1k kit and a $1200 kit aren't going to yield much different results. And you're not going to be able to find a kit that's been dyno tuned in your price range.

Hope that helps. If it were me, I'd save the money you were going to spend on the Slipstreams and buy good coilovers and find some used Kosei's or Mustang wheels for a while. Better to get the right pieces little by little than to go with sub-par coilovers.

 

[habitatguy187]

Thanks for the help Ludachris, I really appreciate the input. I've done lots of searching over the last week or two on the subject but every review I see seems so subjective that it's hard to make a decision. I've read both good and bad things about each coilover I've looked into. It seems like a really hard decision to make without actually going for test drives in cars with different suspension, but of course that's pretty hard to do.

I'm really saddened by your post though Ludachris. $2500 is ALOT to spend on suspension, and know that corner-weighing isn't cheap either so I also have to take that into consideration. It's not so much the budget I guess but the time frame and me fighting my impatience to go cheap and get the ball rolling.

Ludachris what do you think of your setup? When you were racing your car was it competitive and able to keep up with most cars through the corners? I'm not going to be doing a lot of road racing or autox but I'd really like a car that's a complete blast to drive, all the time (streetability) I suppose that I'm asking too much out of my "budget". In all honesty though I really don't think I can justify spending over ~$1200 on coilovers/shocks and springs. I have too many other responsibilities at the moment.

 

[WolfsFang]

i would look into tokico illumina adjustable shocks and H&R sport springs. sure they arent coilover but they are very good for their price range, around ~$650. im going to slap them on my car next week. the springs also lower the front by ~1.7 and rear by ~1.4.

 

[habitatguy187]

i would look into tokico illumina adjustable shocks and H&R sport springs. sure they arent coilover but they are very good for their price range, around ~$650. im going to slap them on my car next week. the springs also lower the front by ~1.7 and rear by ~1.4.

Why do you suggest this setup?

No offense but it seems like a lot of people just throw out a popular name without having any personal experience.

 

[GSXSixteenG]

Not sure how interested and work you want to put in to it. But I plan on doing the diy koni coilover setup some day. I think the hardest part now is finding the upper mounts.

Thread

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/307362-build-your-own-koni-coilovers.html

How to

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross/konis.html

 

[WolfsFang]

Why do you suggest this setup?

No offense but it seems like a lot of people just throw out a popular name without having any personal experience.

i have researched alot of reviews on them and all are positive. i have also talked to shop owners and friends on what suspension i should get. as soon as i said "should i get coilovers?" they said no. and they suggest tokico illumina adjustable shocks and H&R sport springs. for their price range they are a bang for your buck.


Tokico Illumina Shocks Reviews
Tokico Shocks
Tokico Illumina Review -- So Far... - MX-5 Miata Forum
H & R Sport Springs Reviews
H&R Sport Spring Set

 

[Red97Eclipseboy]

I've done Tokico's with Skunk2s. Massive failure. You can't lose with the Koni/GC combo. Unless you're going to be pretty hardcore with road-racing, I wouldn't put too much thought into this.

 

[snowborder714]

I'm really saddened by your post though Ludachris. $2500 is ALOT to spend on suspension, and know that corner-weighing isn't cheap either so I also have to take that into consideration. It's not so much the budget I guess but the time frame and me fighting my impatience to go cheap and get the ball rolling.

Ludachris what do you think of your setup? When you were racing your car was it competitive and able to keep up with most cars through the corners? I'm not going to be doing a lot of road racing or autox but I'd really like a car that's a complete blast to drive, all the time (streetability) I suppose that I'm asking too much out of my "budget". In all honesty though I really don't think I can justify spending over ~$1200 on coilovers/shocks and springs. I have too many other responsibilities at the moment.

You have obviously never looked into true racing suspension setups if you think $2500 is a lot. I have Tein Flex coilovers on my car and am swapping out for the DG suspension (the link I provided above is from the guy who designed the kit I built) which is about at that price range that you say is "A LOT". If you want to play, you have to pay. Yes, it's completely opposite of most DSMers thought processes since everyone is so cheap. If you get bored, go take a lot at some Evo suspension and see how it compares price wise.

As for corner weighting, it's not a total necessity for racing. Yes, it is a very good thing if you have the time and money though. As for the pricing I found around me, it'd actually be cheaper for me to buy my own scales. Three times at a local place would be the cost of the lower end set of scales.

There's a lot more to how a car handles in the corners than just the coilover/shock setup. It also depends on sway bars, alignment (camber, caster, and toe), wheels, tires, differentials, and some other stuff. It all works as a package, so if you have amazing coilovers and still running stock alignment and wheels/tires, you obviously won't have an ideal setup. So unless you run the exact same setup and Chris, you can't really compare your setup to his.

If you don't plan on doing a lot of road race and autox, then I wouldn't be worried as much as you are about a high quality, competitive suspension setup. You could probably buy the recommended Koni/GC kit, put it together, and be just fine as it sits. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but why try and build a high end suspension setup, dyno it, and get the car on scales if you don't intend to use it for the purpose you build it?

 

[snowborder714]

Not sure how interested and work you want to put in to it. But I plan on doing the diy koni coilover setup some day. I think the hardest part now is finding the upper mounts.

It's not a matter of finding the mounts. It's a matter of finding a shop that will make the parts at a reasonable price. It can be quite expensive if they're just making one set, which is what discourages a lot of people from doing the setup.

 

[WolfsFang]

It's not a matter of finding the mounts. It's a matter of finding a shop that will make the parts at a reasonable price. It can be quite expensive if they're just making one set, which is what discourages a lot of people from doing the setup.

and this is the main reason why im staying away from them and getting what i said. im just doing autox as a fun 1 monthly hobby. and going to DD my car so i dont want to waste my time and money on someone that i have to pay to make a part. they are a good kit but for that price range i rather get something else.

*edit* before someone quotes me and say's "it isent that much, i know a guy that will do it cheap" well good luck fining a shop in North NJ that will do that. north NJ is a dead tuner state.

 

[ramsack]

Every DSM comes with coilovers already from the factory! Kidding aside, I was looking into "coilovers" and I might just go with the Koni/GC combo if they are cheaper and better than sub-$2k setups.

 

[snowborder714]

and this is the main reason why im staying away from them and getting what i said. im just doing autox as a fun 1 month hobby. and going to DD my car so i dont want to waste my time and money on someone that i have to pay to make a part. they are a good kit but for that price range i rather get something else.

*edit* before someone quotes me and say's "it isent that much, i know a guy that will do it cheap" well good luck fining a shop in North NJ that will do that. north NJ is a dead tuner state.

Well, I wasn't quoting you to begin with, but that's a good way to approach buying parts.

Just so you know, it'll cost you at least $1400 for the non-machined parts for the DG setup - it's not cheap by any means. Oh, and it's for 2g owners only (for any 1g owners reading about the setup).

 

[habitatguy187]

There's a lot more to how a car handles in the corners than just the coilover/shock setup. It also depends on sway bars, alignment (camber, caster, and toe), wheels, tires, differentials, and some other stuff. It all works as a package, so if you have amazing coilovers and still running stock alignment and wheels/tires, you obviously won't have an ideal setup. So unless you run the exact same setup and Chris, you can't really compare your setup to his.

I plan on getting the Jay Racing Toe Eliminator, and poly bushings all the way around. Planning on light wheels (16" slipstreams as of right now), and hopefully find a lighter-weight brake setup that works well and won't break my bank. I didn't think that me being willing to spend ~3.5k on wheels, suspension and brakes wasn't being "cheap" at all, but I guess I was wrong.

If you don't plan on doing a lot of road race and autox, then I wouldn't be worried as much as you are about a high quality, competitive suspension setup. You could probably buy the recommended Koni/GC kit, put it together, and be just fine as it sits. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but why try and build a high end suspension setup, dyno it, and get the car on scales if you don't intend to use it for the purpose you build it?

Maybe my goals are overkill, I don't really know. The only DSM I've ever ridden in with upgraded suspension is a 2g, and the suspension just seems really stiff, which isn't want I want, even if it does handle better. I guess I can go ahead and try a cheaper shock/spring combo and if down the road it's not enough then I'll upgrade when I don't have so many other items on my want list.

 

[WolfsFang]

I plan on getting the Jay Racing Toe Eliminator, and poly bushings all the way around. Planning on light wheels (16" slipstreams as of right now), and hopefully find a lighter-weight brake setup that works well and won't break my bank. I didn't think that me being willing to spend ~3.5k on wheels, suspension and brakes wasn't being "cheap" at all, but I guess I was wrong.



Maybe my goals are overkill, I don't really know. The only DSM I've ever ridden in with upgraded suspension is a 2g, and the suspension just seems really stiff, which isn't want I want, even if it does handle better. I guess I can go ahead and try a cheaper shock/spring combo and if down the road it's not enough then I'll upgrade when I don't have so many other items on my want list.

if you can wait 1~2 weeks i can tell you how i feel about the suspension im getting.

 

[snowborder714]

One plus if you go with a shock/spring combo is that you can purchase different spring rates and play with them. This way you can get a good handling car that doesn't ride really harsh. Yes, it'll cost you some money to buy the springs (about $80 for a Hypercoil spring - highly recommended), but not nearly as much as a built coilover setup that you don't like. You can also find used springs fairly easily which can be had much cheaper.

 

[Ludachris]

and this is the main reason why im staying away from them and getting what i said. im just doing autox as a fun 1 monthly hobby. and going to DD my car so i dont want to waste my time and money on someone that i have to pay to make a part. they are a good kit but for that price range i rather get something else.

*edit* before someone quotes me and say's "it isent that much, i know a guy that will do it cheap" well good luck fining a shop in North NJ that will do that. north NJ is a dead tuner state.

A lot of 2Gers go with Tokico. It's the popular choice for that platform, just like 1Gers go with KYB. But it's not the ideal choice for good handling, even if it feels more sporty. The only shock available for our cars that anyone should buy if they really want good handling short of a good coilover, is Koni. The Koni has a shorter stroke and is better suited for lowered cars, and it's much better than a Tokico or KYB. If you buy lowering springs and mate them with any other shock, you're leaving yourself open to premature shock failure. It's happened to me and many others.

What usually happens with shocks/struts is when you try and save money by going with the cheaper option, which isn't made for what you're doing, you end up paying more in the long run due to failures.

For anyone looking for a budget shock/spring/coilover setup for under $2k, go with a Koni/Ground Control setup. You can get custom spring rates from GC for your application, which should put you closer to where you need to be than with a standard sub-$2k street coilover. The 1G guys can mate this set up with the RRE adjustable camber plates that are offset for added caster. That might be just over $1200, but it will yield better handling than any of the closest priced coilovers.

If you just want to go with a shock/spring combo, that should be fine for the street, but again, it's not going to be great for handling and it will likely wear prematurely.

 

[WolfsFang]

A lot of 2Gers go with Tokico. It's the popular choice for that platform, just like 1Gers go with KYB. But it's not the ideal choice for good handling, even if it feels more sporty. The only shock available for our cars that anyone should buy if they really want good handling short of a good coilover, is Koni. The Koni has a shorter stroke and is better suited for lowered cars, and it's much better than a Tokico or KYB. If you buy lowering springs and mate them with any other shock, you're leaving yourself open to premature shock failure. It's happened to me and many others.

What usually happens with shocks/struts is when you try and save money by going with the cheaper option, which isn't made for what you're doing, you end up paying more in the long run due to failures.

For anyone looking for a budget shock/spring/coilover setup for under $2k, go with a Koni/Ground Control setup. You can get custom spring rates from GC for your application, which should put you closer to where you need to be than with a standard sub-$2k street coilover. The 1G guys can mate this set up with the RRE adjustable camber plates that are offset for added caster. That might be just over $1200, but it will yield better handling than any of the closest priced coilovers.

If you just want to go with a shock/spring combo, that should be fine for the street, but again, it's not going to be great for handling and it will likely wear prematurely.

if i get the Koni Sport, will H&R sport springs cause any problems, or they good to run on? if you say that the Koni Sport are alot better then the tokico then im willing to pay the extra 200. arent the tokico Illumina close to or the same as koni Sport? from all the koni vs tokico reviews iv read they seem the same. but if you say it will save me money in the long run then im willing to get it. i would like to get the koni/GC kit but i dont see myself going to the track alot and taking tight turns alot. also do the koni sport work with GC or do you need some other koni suspension?
*edit* is there a difference between koni sport and koni special D red? if there is what is the difference. tire rack is the only place that has koni sport for the 95 eclipse GSX and its saying its better.

 

[Ludachris]

$646 for a set of Konis from ExtremePSI.com: http://www.extremepsi.com/store/customer/home.php?cat=421
$399 for a Ground Control kit (request stiffer spring rates than their default option): http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=51/CA=92
$300 for RRE camber plates : http://www.roadraceengineering.com/eclsuspension.htm

$1345, and a better performing coilover setup than just about anything else under $2k for a 1G. That's what I'd suggest you do Brad. You will have a very good setup on a budget. I am able to hang with just about any other car on the track with this setup.

I would then do all poly bushings throughout the suspension and body, some Whiteline rear camber bushings, Jay Racing toe eliminator kit, along with some bigger swaybars - I am installing some Whitelines - 26mm rear and 22mm front, one of our Vendors just posted these in the Vendor forum.

For brakes, just keep the factory 2-piston "big brake" for now with more aggressive pads and better brake fluid, as you'll need 17" wheels for anything else that's worth the money and effort. Play with that set up for a while before you go and upgrade wheels and tires. I'd strongly suggest not buying new 16" wheels, as you might find you want bigger brakes later and there's no sense in cornering yourself into a wheel size that won't work with 13" brakes.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ludachris]

if i get the Koni Sport, will H&R sport springs cause any problems, or they good to run on? if you say that the Koni Sport are alot better then the tokico then im willing to pay the extra 200. arent the tokico Illumina close to or the same as koni Sport? from all the koni vs tokico reviews iv read they seem the same. but if you say it will save me money in the long run then im willing to get it. i would like to get the koni/GC kit but i dont see myself going to the track alot and taking tight turns alot. also do the koni sport work with GC or do you need some other koni suspension?
*edit* is there a difference between koni sport and koni special D red? if there is what is the difference. tire rack is the only place that has koni sport for the 95 eclipse GSX and its saying its better.

Go with Koni Sports (yellows). One of our vendors sells them here at a pretty decent price:
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - KONI Sport

I've never heard anyone who road races or competes in any type of wheel-turning events say that the Tokicos available for the DSM are on par with Koni Sports. I'd always give Koni the edge. And I'm not sure if the fitment is the same with the H&R springs, but if it is, they should work just fine.

 

[WolfsFang]

Go with Koni Sports (yellows). One of our vendors sells them here at a pretty decent price:
EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts - KONI Sport

I've never heard anyone who road races or competes in any type of wheel-turning events say that the Tokicos available for the DSM are on par with Koni Sports. I'd always give Koni the edge. And I'm not sure if the fitment is the same with the H&R springs, but if it is, they should work just fine.

looks like im getting koni and the H&R sport springs should fit. and i wouldent need a chamber kit unless i get GC? if i want to get the GC in the future i could just buy them and install them on the koni sports with a chamber kit. (srry for stealing the thread XD)

 

[habitatguy187]

Ludachris thanks for all the advice. I'm going to buy exactly what you listed. Also I'll probably just jump to the 17" wheels and tires right away because I want to try and completely finish the suspension over the fall/winter and build the engine this spring or possibly later on, I just wanted to get the suspension and subframe bushings done and out of the way.

Also if it's not too much trouble could you post up your alignment specs? I know what the terms mean but I don't know how they feel on the road since suspension geometry changes during corners. Again sorry for all the newb questions but I've thought long and hard about this and want to get everything right the first time.

 

[KiNg MaRtY]

I also agree that the Koni + GC setup is the best choice for the buck.

I have Muellerized JIC Coilovers with a Muellerized Street Alignment in my 2g and Koni with H&R springs in my VR-4. For a daily at the stock off the self setting from Koni with the H&R springs it feels just as "soft/stiff" as my STi use to feel when I had purchased it off the lot. My Galant came with the H&R spring and crappy KYB struts which I quickly switched out for Koni's. It was a night and day difference. I will be getting some GC's for it eventually. Also, just to mention about spring rates, some of the 1g guys get the GVR-4 rates as they like that the rear is just a tab bit stiffer.

Also keep in mind that your tires will also have a lot to do with complementing your suspension. If your tires are not stick enough then you will not be able to get the most out of your suspension. IE: I had Toyo Proxes-4 235/45 that I was daily driving on the 2g with on some 17x8.5 BBS wheels and I would break them loose easily. I now have FK-452's in a 245/45 on EVO rims and they let me take more advantage of my suspension but my compound tires make me the happiest.