Building A DSM Road Racing Series...........................

[Zero Bar]

Well, I've been given the go ahead to "leak" the following information. NASA will shortly be announcing their new race series called; PRO-TOURING, at least that's the name of it at the moment. It will encompass a great deal of cars including turbos and superchargers. The class will be governed by the new "Time Trial" classifications for cars. If you're unfamiliar with time trails regs., it's done on a modifications points system. The more your car is modded from stock, the more points you will accrue towards what racing group you'll be in. This way you won't just be running against other DSM's, you'll be racing against a field of cars with [#]like [/#]HP, suspension, tires, weight, and so-on. It should be quite competitive and a real blast.

Greg

I like the sound of it. Is this going to be in place of an all DSM class? or are they going to wait and see if enough DSM's show to have a specific class? Though I won't mind if all the DSM's were put into this category.

 

[Greg Collier]

I like the sound of it. Is this going to be in place of an all DSM class? or are they going to wait and see if enough DSM's show to have a specific class? Though I won't mind if all the DSM's were put into this category.

At this point this is the class. Everything takes time. If there's enough interest and there's enough DSM people (nation wide), then an individual DSM series would be a reality. At this point though, most people like the idea of a variety of cars in their race group... it definitely will make things more interesting

I'm still running SU

Greg

 

[Slapnut]

they need to make a 4banger n/t and turbo class then allow hundas in with mits and what not.

 

[Greg Collier]

they need to make a 4banger n/t and turbo class then allow hundas in with mits and what not.

This will be included in the Pro-touring... it's per "Time Trails" classifications, so everyone will be included. Bottom line..................... YOU"RE IN!!

Go to NASA site and check it out to see what class you'd be running in.

Here ya go: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf Keep in mind, it's just the classifications not the rules for racing. That will be out next week on the NASA site!

 

[mavisky]

they need to make a 4banger n/t and turbo class then allow hundas in with mits and what not.

Your car would simply be classified as its stock donor chassis and then you'd take on points for the motor swap. I talked to the director as my car was originally going to be in the same situation, but since I've swapped over all the parts from a fwd tsi my car gets classified as a stock fwd turbo instead.

Also notice that the fwd turbo's have a 7 point penalty over the awd's since we're about 300-400lbs lighter from the factory.

 

[Slapnut]

but i wanna be able to trade paint, with something other than a cone!

 

[Greg Collier]

NASA just asked me for a different "name" then Pro-Touring, so I shot a half dozen suggestions with the word TOURING in it. They're getting real close to the announcement so it's a done deal. Hold on to your steering wheels gentlemen and gentlewomen

Greg

 

[Slapnut]

 

[Zero Bar]

Works for me. It would be kinda nice to be running against other cars as well. Ideally I'd like to run against other DSM's in an all DSM class but I'll take what can get.

 

[terefic181]

Well, I've been given the go ahead to "leak" the following information. NASA will shortly be announcing their new race series called; PRO-TOURING, at least that's the name of it at the moment. It will encompass a great deal of cars including turbos and superchargers. The class will be governed by the new "Time Trial" classifications for cars. If you're unfamiliar with time trails regs., it's done on a modifications points system. The more your car is modded from stock, the more points you will accrue towards what racing group you'll be in. This way you won't just be running against other DSM's, you'll be racing against a field of cars with [#]like [/#]HP, suspension, tires, weight, and so-on. It should be quite competitive and a real blast.

Greg

So I guess I can finally post this that I have been holding onto for the last few weeks:

edit) These emails are in the original reverse chronological order, with the oldest last.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



edit) added my response to Jerry's email

Jerry,

That's good news for sure. I will plan to post, to the DSM site, our communications over the past few weeks regarding a possible new class. I know we all would appreciate knowing what is taking place that could possibly affect what we may do with our season this year. Whether that might be starting an HPDE program to get ready for the new class or someone that is ready to run in that class this year.

We do appreciate all the efforts of everyone at NASA, on addressing this issue. I certainly think NASA has stepped up to the plate and hit a grand slammer.

Thanks again and we look forward to the finalization of this class.

Tom

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Kunzman

To: 'tdixon'

Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 9:53 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Class structure

Tom,


Yes, the process is underway. It's probably going to be a little while longer to make sure we have it right.



Jerry




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tdixon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:16 AM
To: Jerry Kunzman
Subject: Re: Re: Class structure



Jerry,



The holidays are over and the new year is here, and I hope the holidays were good, for you and yours. I'm sure the new year has lots of new and exciting things in store, for all of us.



I guess my question at this time is - What's new and exciting, with NASA, regarding the DSM's for the future?



Greg Collier and I have been talking throughout the holidays, and I understand from him, that Greg Greenbaum is working on a turbo class of Subaru's, Cobalts, Evo's and other hybrid turbo type cars, and that it should include the DSM's, also. I understand that this class has a good chance of being put in place this year. I hope this is the case and you have good news for us.



I look forward to your response,



Tom Dixon


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Kunzman

To: 'tdixon'

Cc: [email protected] ; [email protected]

Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:15 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Class structure



Tom,



Since our last discussion, there has been some talk and work being done on our end. We may be coming up with a new classing system for tuner types, based on the Time Trial classing idea. I am relying on you to keep this to yourself. It's not considered a big secret, but we don't have time to field a ton of questions and create this new classing system at the same time.



So, I like your ideas, and we are definitely looking into a system that should get the job done. Please check back with us after the holidays.



Jerry




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tdixon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 6:56 AM
To: Jerry Kunzman
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Re: Class structure



Jerry,



Thank you very much, that was a most informative history. I certainly appreciate your bringing me up to date on NASA's position with regard to SCCA's IT classes.



May we possibly direct our attention toward finding a place for these cars within the NASA sports family. We would be most interested in exploring the possibilities of a class other than S/# or a pardon my expression, "might be" class. Whether that entails forming an entirely new class series for DSM's, alone, which we are presently discussing in a DSM forum, or in combination with cars that are already running within NASA, possibly EVO's and Subarus, a turbo series, as it were, or something entirely different, that we are as yet, unaware of.



The forum that Greg and I are affiliated with, of which, both of us are forum leaders, as wisemen, is DSMTuners.com. This is a performance DSM forum that has slightly less than 60,000 members. That is definitely a large number of potential racers for the right sanctioning body. In addition, the owner of this forum Chris, has recently joined the NASA family and is now affiliated with the management of the, newly reformed, rocky mountain region.



The thing is, most any of the site's members will not have bone stock cars, because of the nature of the forum. There is a well, documented and known, 3 stage modification progression plan, that has been in place for many years, and on many different DSM forums. This staged plan is used by a large number of the members, that would be interested in road racing, in the first place. We are presently very close to a consensus on what the entry level cars should be, and we are beginning the discussion of class structure for an intermediate, and S/# class. It is our belief that with the right venue, there should be an abundance of participants, as opposed to now, with no venue in place, and no one knowing where/how to participate.



The word is out as to NASA's HPDE runs, and that is a great thing, but there is no pot at the end of that rainbow, so to speak. We believe there needs to be a venue in place, so that they have that " pot", something real, and a direction they can move towards.



We believe that NASA may be the venue we're looking for. It is our hope that we can find common ground here with NASA, and make this a truly, win, win situation for all of us.





Sincerely,



Tom Dixon




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Kunzman

To: 'tdixon'

Cc: 'John Lindsey' ; 'Ryan Flaherty'

Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 8:46 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Class structure



Tom,



We didn't believe much in the IT philosophy in the early 90's because of where SCCA had let it go (astray). We made PS rules to accommodate those with SCCA IT cars; with no intention of promoting the classes. Originally, we had only a small numbers of competitors, most happy campers, and so we did very little tech. (Given the nature of IT, a lot were probably already stretching the rules anyway).



In the mid 90s we started to see some more interest from SCCA competitors and PS grew and we got a little more serious about. Then as 2000 approached and we became a national org, the interest dropped off (coincidentally). We let the regions us the same structure to accommodate their competitors that had IT cars. The amount of rule policing etc. would be done on a regional level, as some regions may have few PS cars at all.



Now, when PS0 was invented, it was done so with our (Nor Cal's) intent to allow those "tinker" types with cars like the Eclipse, etc. prepared strictly to ITS standards to have a place to run. Obviously, the type of car allowed in PS) would have to be up to our discretion (i.e. no Vipers, etc.). On a regional level, the variance doesn't really matter that much, as long as the rules are the same for everyone. So, if all you are talking about here is regional level, you can stop here.



The problem may arise at the nationals. With the standard PS3, PS2, & PS1 rules well established, we should have no problem there. But given the regional latitude of the nature of the PS0 rule we will likely find some difficulty at the nationals. We will either have to go to a list of approved cars with weights, or perhaps scratch that class from the nationals altogether.



This is where we sit with PS0; being that it was only meant to be a regional class to begin with.



Jerry








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tdixon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 5:16 PM
To: Jerry Kunzman
Subject: Re: Re: Class structure



Jerry,



As I said earlier, I know there is a lot of ambiguity to the SCCA ITE rules, but I must say that I was not aware of the degree of differences, until recently. I appreciate the feedback, from both, you and Ryan, on this.



Greg Collier and I have been discussing the possibilities of putting together a DSM ('90-'99, Eclipse, Talon, Laser) series. The interest seems to be growing somewhat, in regards to road racing, on a DSM forum site that we are a part of. We've been working on some initial entry level rules and such, and getting feedback form members.



Greg has been a member of NASA for sometime and has run consistently over the last 4-5 years. I've been a member since 2000, I think, and have run several HPDE weekends during that time, and plan to run close to, if not, a full season, in '06.



Any help, or light, you, Ryan, or your associates, would care to shed on this subject, would be greatly appreciated.



Thank you for your time and consideration.



Tom Dixon

#107905

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----

From: Jerry Kunzman

To: [email protected] ; [email protected]

Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 11:54 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Class structure



Let me add, that it does say as an example "ITE" car might meet with PS0. Ryan's message is totally correct. The rules for 2006 have ITE removed as reference. That is not a good example.



Jerry




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ryan Flaherty [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Re: Class structure



Tom,



The PS rules state that PS0 needs to conform to ITS level of prep http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Pro-Sedan.pdf



ITE rules are different per region but many allow almost unlimited modifications, thus this would not be a good source to prep the car for PS0.



PS0 is basically stock stuff (IT allowed mods) but with the allowance of cars not classified in ITS.



Thanks,



Ryan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Evyan Ruiz [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fw: Re: Class structure

Ryan,



I have been kind of going by the SCCA ITE rules over the last few years. NASA / PS-0 shows to be using ITE for it's rules. Is that correct? I know ITE varies somewhat across the country, but these rules allow quite a bit of internal engine mods (cams, cranks, etc), even including, engine swaps.



Is this not a viable source for the rules? http://www.oregonscca.com/roadrace/2005/2005ITE.doc



Thank's for your time Ryan,



Tom

 

[Zero Bar]

Man those were making no sense at all until I read them in order!!WTF
If I'm reading those emails right they're referring to the new "Pro-Touring" class or whatever they will call it?
I'm not familiar with the "ITE" or "PSO" classing, is it going to be relevant to the new class that's being put together? I don't want to go reading about a bunch of rules that won't apply to me and confuse myself.

 

[Greg Collier]

Man those were making no sense at all until I read them in order!!WTF
If I'm reading those emails right they're referring to the new "Pro-Touring" class or whatever they will call it?
I'm not familiar with the "ITE" or "PSO" classing, is it going to be relevant to the new class that's being put together? I don't want to go reading about a bunch of rules that won't apply to me and confuse myself.

The new, what will probably called "TOURING CAR" class will incorporate just about all cars. The rules will be the same as all race classes in regard to safety equipment. The classes for the series will be determined by the same "points per modification" as the Time Trails group. This means if you're changing suspension from OEM to something better you will have added points to your car for this modification. If another car makes the same type of modification and you are with-in the same points of each other, you will both be in the same race (group) class.
So... you may end up racing against a 944 Posche, Acura, Nissan trurbo, VW-GTI, all with the same horsepower, type suspension, tire widths, etc.. Sounds like big fun to me.
All you need to do is to go to the NASA Time Trials classifications and find out how many points you have in modifications to figure out what class you're in. Pretty simple...

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

 

[Slow old poop]

All you need to do is to go to the NASA Time Trials classifications and find out how many points you have in modifications to figure out what class you're in. Pretty simple...http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

Simple, my foot. They take points for EVERYTHING. I'm up over 60 points now, and am wondering about making some of mods we had planned.

Depending on how picky they get, I could get into TTU if I'm not careful. I druther stay in TTB or A. All I gotta worry about there are Z06 Corvettes and twin-tubo Porsches.

I'm still trying to figure out how many points I'll get if I put in a DSMLink and a manual boost controller. Crikies, they got about 87 different ways to penalize cars with electronic controls. I may just keep the Apexi--it costs fewer points.

And why so many points for water injection? It doesn't add power, just stops knock. Hmmm....better not put that in, eh? I'll just watch the knock display real close and run super-high octane race gas.

I wanted to add a front splitter for cooling, but it adds points. Hmmm...guess I'll just cut a hole in the hood and hope for the best.

I also don't like the rule where, if you get protested, you gotta tear it down with no reimbursement if you're legal. No, no, Nanette! There's gotta be a protest fee involved of about $250 or so, which you get to keep if you're legal. Crikies, a head gasket costs $65 all by itself, not to mention all the other parts you gotta replace if you have to pull the head. A protest fee would limit revenge-type protests.

I think I'll gut the doors, take out the power windows, and put door bars in, just to save weight (no points!). (Greg: please send pix of your plastic windows!)

Anybody find any other cool no-point mods in the rules?

I am happy that NASA gave us a TT-based class, but some of these rules need some fine tuning.

Rich

 

[Slapnut]

Slow poop, I just noticed you’re my neighbor to the south

 

[terefic181]

Man those were making no sense at all until I read them in order!!WTF
If I'm reading those emails right they're referring to the new "Pro-Touring" class or whatever they will call it?
I'm not familiar with the "ITE" or "PSO" classing, is it going to be relevant to the new class that's being put together? I don't want to go reading about a bunch of rules that won't apply to me and confuse myself.

Sorry about that. Yes the emails are in the original reverse chronological order , and yes the new class Jerry Kunzman (Executive Director of NASA) is refering to, is the class that Greg is speaking of.

edit) The PS0 (NASA) and ITE (SCCA) will probably not apply to our cars now, we should fall into the new class.

Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

Slow poop, I just noticed you’re my neighbor to the south

Then you understand "eh"!
Guess we'll see you at the Midwest NASA events, eh?

Rich

 

[terefic181]

Simple, my foot. They take points for EVERYTHING. I'm up over 60 points now, and am wondering about making some of mods we had planned.

Depending on how picky they get, I could get into TTU if I'm not careful. I druther stay in TTB or A. All I gotta worry about there are Z06 Corvettes and twin-tubo Porsches.

I'm still trying to figure out how many points I'll get if I put in a DSMLink and a manual boost controller. Crikies, they got about 87 different ways to penalize cars with electronic controls. I may just keep the Apexi--it costs fewer points.

And why so many points for water injection? It doesn't add power, just stops knock. Hmmm....better not put that in, eh? I'll just watch the knock display real close and run super-high octane race gas.

I wanted to add a front splitter for cooling, but it adds points. Hmmm...guess I'll just cut a hole in the hood and hope for the best.

I also don't like the rule where, if you get protested, you gotta tear it down with no reimbursement if you're legal. No, no, Nanette! There's gotta be a protest fee involved of about $250 or so, which you get to keep if you're legal. Crikies, a head gasket costs $65 all by itself, not to mention all the other parts you gotta replace if you have to pull the head. A protest fee would limit revenge-type protests.

I think I'll gut the doors, take out the power windows, and put door bars in, just to save weight (no points!). (Greg: please send pix of your plastic windows!)

Anybody find any other cool no-point mods in the rules?

I am happy that NASA gave us a TT-based class, but some of these rules need some fine tuning.

Rich

Carefull what you wish for. I think this just means we're going to have think real hard on which mods will do the most for us and if the rest of them are really worth the penalties.

Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

Carefull what you wish for. I think this just means we're going to have think real hard on which mods will do the most for us and if the rest of them are really worth the penalties.
Tom

I think I will wait for my first official NASA scrutineering in April before I install a DSM Link, water injection or a splitter. With these new rules, I can only guess at what mods they wil assess points for, or what problems will send me home to fix. Once I figure out what class they are going to put me in, then I can determine what additional mods I can put on.

I'll just tell them it's a stock motor and suspension and see how good the scrutineers are at identifying DSM mods (just kidding--I'll be honest)

Rich

 

[mavisky]

Eh, I'm in ttb right now, but by the time I get a decent suspension and tires on the car I'll get pushed to TTA most likely unless I ditch some items.

 

[Zero Bar]

Once I do the turbo engine I'm gonna be in TTA at least! Maybe I should stay n/a for a while...

 

[mavisky]

Make sure and look into the weight penalty points assessment. You can either take points for individual items removed or total mass difference from stock weight, although you have to get in touch with Greg G on the nasaforums to find out they're assumed stock weight for your particular car.

 

[Zero Bar]

I'm not going to be hit hard in this area. I'm only looking at less then 10 points for the interior and weight reduction. The turbo engine will kill me because I will not be building a stock motor and they penalize you for every little thing. +8 for raised compression, thats a hefty penalty for just going to 2g pistons. Up to 11 points depending on what fuel computer I go with. I plan on buying V710's which is +7, over 20mm width tire is another 7. Sheesh it adds up quickly! Oh well, when I first get out there I'll probably get my rear end handed to me regardless.

 

[terefic181]

...I also don't like the rule where, if you get protested, you gotta tear it down with no reimbursement if you're legal. No, no, Nanette! There's gotta be a protest fee involved of about $250 or so, which you get to keep if you're legal. Crikies, a head gasket costs $65 all by itself, not to mention all the other parts you gotta replace if you have to pull the head. A protest fee would limit revenge-type protests...

Rich

If this is any consolation, the NASA CCR states this:

17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts
or modifications to another competitor’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately
disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the
race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the
protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the
protest.

 

[Greg Collier]

The new Performance Touring series is here... I posted a new thread:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212669

Now is the time for all good racers to start engines

 

[Slow old poop]

If this is any consolation, the NASA CCR states this:

17.6 Bad Faith Protests
Any competitor, entrant, or team member having knowledge or suspicion of illegal parts
or modifications to another competitor’s vehicle has an obligation to immediately
disclose that information to that team, or to the Race Director, before the start of the
race. To file a protest in violation of these rules will cause action to be taken against the
protestor. This will not however, affect the acceptance, rejection, or out come of the
protest.

I wonder what that means in English?

Rich