ROAD RACING: Building a road race motor

[D_Eclipse9916]

Yeah Solo 2 is autocrossing. I have been to track events and even though I think they are hard, autocrossing is more of a driver's test than car test. You dont have to worry about your car, running it only about a minute...and there are no long straights or sweepers where a car's horsepower and suspension set-up would overwhelm driver skill compared to autocross..

But can someone still answer me about main studs?

 

[Rx3]

I used to run a couple of autocrosses every year. I like the ones that the Corvette Club puts on, because they are designed for big horsepower cars, and run on big courses. Around here, the SCCA runs theirs on postage-stamp parking lots where you never get out of first gear.

One CC event that I loved was run at Hawkeye Downs, a half-mile paved oval, with a 1/4 mile oval inside. One lap was: Around the big oval (pyloned down to keep us in the low groove, away from the wall), then around the little oval, and around the big oval again: 1.25 miles, covered in 1:01-1:05. About a 75 mph average. I showed up once and beat 65 Corvettes to set FTD. Alas, because I was a "guest" in a 3000GT VR4, I didn't get a trophy. I don't run it any more because they pyloned it to cut the speeds. I was crossing the finish line at 100+, and 'crosses aren't s'posed to be that fast.

Dang rules take the fun out of everything.

Rich

That's messed up. In WNY, there is no guest. You kick ass, you take home a trophy. End of story. What happened to you is a prime example of why the SCCA will never be able to attract more participants.

 

[1LE]

If there is anything I need to do the motor at this point to help it survive road racing, please let me know. The motor has 10,000 miles on it, most of it highway driving. I drove it harder than it had every been run in its life, so it suffered no abuse in those 10,000 miles until this season.

Well, I don't make as much power as you (only 400 crank hp on the engine dyno before going in the car, and I run 2psi less boost in real life compared to the dyno)... BUT, my motor at 30k miles ate an oil pump. Not only did it survive the sudden loss of oil pressure (15 seconds worth, luckily at real close to idle), but the motor looks better internally than some new Evo motors with far, FAR less mileage. My car had many years, multiple One Laps, many open track days, and several rallyes and rallycrosses on it.

It has the basics internally, JE pistons, crower rods, HKS valve springs, HKS HG, HKS 264/264 cams, but most everything else is stock (a lot of porting/polishing obviously, but stock parts). Even has stock studs holding it together! I attribute the long life and minimal wear to 2 things.

1) Proper warmup and shutdown. NO boost until oil temperature reaches 60C. On the shutdown side, after street/highway driving, only idledown for 30 seconds or so, anymore is a waste. At the track, 5-10 minutes as it really does take that long for the oil temp to come down from near 140C (at idle, my oil temp very nearly comes all the way down to meet my coolant temp (85C).

2) Good oil. I ditched Mobil1 10w-30 early on due to lifter tick and switched to Amsoil 10w-30 turbo formula.

 

[Slow old poop]

Well, I don't make as much power as you (only 400 crank hp on the engine dyno before going in the car, and I run 2psi less boost in real life compared to the dyno)... BUT, my motor at 30k miles ate an oil pump. Not only did it survive the sudden loss of oil pressure (15 seconds worth, luckily at real close to idle), but the motor looks better internally than some new Evo motors with far, FAR less mileage. My car had many years, multiple One Laps, many open track days, and several rallyes and rallycrosses on it..

1. My motor survived TWO complete losses of oil pressure when I blew oil filter seals at WOT. Lost all the oil, too. No damage that we can see, except copper is showing on some of the rod bearings. Damn, we got tough motors!

2. Multiple One Laps? I bought the blue Eclipse that ran the 2003 One Lap. Any relation?

It has the basics internally, JE pistons, crower rods, HKS valve springs, HKS HG, HKS 264/264 cams, but most everything else is stock (a lot of porting/polishing obviously, but stock parts). Even has stock studs holding it together! ...

Sounds like what mine will have when we get done building it. 400 hp eh? Hoo boy!

I attribute the long life and minimal wear to 2 things

1) Proper warmup and shutdown. NO boost until oil temperature reaches 60C. On the shutdown side, after street/highway driving, only idledown for 30 seconds or so, anymore is a waste. At the track, 5-10 minutes as it really does take that long for the oil temp to come down from near 140C (at idle, my oil temp very nearly comes all the way down to meet my coolant temp (85C).

2) Good oil. I ditched Mobil1 10w-30 early on due to lifter tick and switched to Amsoil 10w-30 turbo formula.

Good advice. We've been running Mobil 1 10W-30, but I'll see what the engine builder recommends.

I have been wondering, though: How do you break in a race motor?
Should I run it on the street for 500 miles, or take it over to a track day and run it at slower speeds and lower engine rpm for 100 laps or so? I am fortunate enough to live a few hours from Midamerican Motorplex (south of Omaha), where we can run midweek for $100 a day. All the laps we can stand, with only a dozen cars in attendance. I could probably put 500 miles on it in a single day!


Rich

 

[1LE]

2. Multiple One Laps? I bought the blue Eclipse that ran the 2003 One Lap. Any relation?

I have been wondering, though: How do you break in a race motor?
Should I run it on the street for 500 miles, or take it over to a track day and run it at slower speeds and lower engine rpm for 100 laps or so? I am fortunate enough to live a few hours from Midamerican Motorplex (south of Omaha), where we can run midweek for $100 a day. All the laps we can stand, with only a dozen cars in attendance. I could probably put 500 miles on it in a single day!

I've been trying to find the information again and have come up empty handed (had everything on my computer which crashed a few weeks ago). I believe it was entered in the '98, '99, and '00 OneLaps (that was before I bought it). It's the one on the top of http://www.dsm.org I've had the car now for about 3.5 years and have put far more miles on it than the previous owners.

I haven't heard anything to believe that breaking in a race motor is any different from a regular motor. Last time I did that, I did 500 miles of as much stop and go as possible, followed by 1000 miles of "normal" driving, but avoiding constant speeds and not going all the way WOT. After 1500 I opened it up completely and haven't looked back. That motor now has 15,000 miles on it, but haven't taken a peek to see how it's doing. Sounds OK

 

[Suparata]

... I am fortunate enough to live a few hours from Midamerican Motorplex (south of Omaha), where we can run midweek for $100 a day. All the laps we can stand, with only a dozen cars in attendance. I could probably put 500 miles on it in a single day!
Rich

Are some guys lucky or what?

I have been wondering, though: How do you break in a race motor?
Should I run it on the street for 500 miles, or take it over to a track day and run it at slower speeds and lower engine rpm for 100 laps or so?

Take it to the track because that's where you would really be able to do it right.

We've been running Mobil 1 10W-30

I would rather see a 10W50 or 15W50 oil in there cooled properly.

 

[Suparata]

...At the track, 5-10 minutes as it really does take that long for the oil temp to come down from near 140C (at idle, my oil temp very nearly comes all the way down to meet my coolant temp (85C)...

You have to bring those oil temps lower. 140C is too high.

 

[1LE]

You have to bring those oil temps lower. 140C is too high.

If the car was track only, I would add an air-oil cooler. However, with it also being used for rally that's not as good an option. One of the compromises that has to be made (brakes and IC are other things that I have that are really too small for the track, but I risk worse issues during rally if I "upgrade" those).

 

[1LE]

Are some guys lucky or what?

Same here. My "home" track (Nelson Ledges) is $120 to run all day. I typically run less than half of the time available and can put over 200 miles on the car.

 

[Slow old poop]

Are some guys lucky or what?

We run MidAmerica Motorplex (http://www.midamericamotorplex.com) about four times a year, from April to October. It's a 2.3 mile road course, nothing to hit but grass, and ideal for setting up a car, getting seat time, or trying out an HPDE. You're from Chicago, so it's about 9 hours towing for you, straight west on I80. DSMers in KC, St Louis, Mnpls, Omaha, Des Moines, and other points nearby are welcome to join us.

These are completely unorganized, unsanctioned hot-lapping events, run what you brung, with no rules to speak of (just helmets, long-sleeve shirts and two classes, novice and experienced). Back when it was REALLY CHEAP, we could run midweek for $50 per car, with only 6-12 cars. Now, they want $2,000 for the track, so we need about 20 cars at $100 per car for a one-day weekend event. We used to organize these outings from the Cedar Rapids ROWG sports car club, but a NASA racer from Minneapolis has taken over organizing duties. He's gotten anywhere from 20 to 40 cars to come out. Still, with only two classes, you run for 20 minutes, rest for 20 minutes, and then go back out -- all ***ing day! Getting 100 laps is normal! With a team of two or three drivers, we could could conceivably put 500 miles on the Eclipse if we ran it continuously.

Some experienced guys serve as free instructors for novices, and professional instruction is available on request for $90 a day.

MidAm also hosts (or tried to host) a NASA event. The last one was cancelled for lack of entries. So, anyone thinking about running NASA events in the Midwest oughta come over and get in some hot laps before the event.

Next time we go, I'll alert the list. Like I said, no rules, so it's a perfect place to give an HPDE a try in your bone-stock DSM before spending big bucks on a Porsche or BMW HPDE.

Rich

 

[MIdsm]

Gingerman Racetrack in South Haven, MI ( less than 2 hours from Chicago) usually has open track on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday evenings for $60 for about three to four hours of unlimited track time. One should check the schedule as few times during the year open track time isn't available.

Prices and days/dates may change.

 

[Greg Collier]

MidAm also hosts (or tried to host) a NASA event. The last one was cancelled for lack of entries. So, anyone thinking about running NASA events in the Midwest oughta come over and get in some hot laps before the event.
Rich

This will all change big time in 2006 as Dave Royce is the new NASA Midwest director. This guy is a mover and a shaker and one phenomenal race car driver to boot!


FROM NASA FORUMS

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:06 am Post subject: NASA MIDWEST SCHEDULE UPDATE: DEC 8TH

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

APRIL 15/16-----BLACKHAWK FARM-----EASTER FIRM
MAY 20/21-------PUTNAM PARK with NASA OH/IN FIRM
JUNE 17/18-----MAM (father's day weekend)----FIRM
JULY 8/9----- ROAD AMERICA with Ferrari Club NOT FIRM YET
JULY 22/23-----AUTOBAHN with NASA OH/IN-----FIRM
AUGUST 12/13-----MID O Nationals PRACTICE with NASA OH/IN---FIRM
SEPT 11/17-----MID OHIO NASA NATIONALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FIRM
OCT 21/22----Midwest Region Season Finale at ROAD AMERICA---FIRM

 

[SlowboyCSE]

Main studs - the pan drops down over them and it didn't clear when I went to install mine.

Just for reference also,

Moroso Pan also does not like 2.3 or 2.4's as there isn't enough room for the crank and rods to swing.

I have one sitting on my tool box right now that i don't want to modify to fit.

 

[Greg Collier]

I have one sitting on my tool box right now that i don't want to modify to fit.

Send to Greg Collier
C/O DsmTuners.com

 

[SlowboyCSE]

Send to Greg Collier
C/O DsmTuners.com

. I have another DSM sitting that it could go on, only time to work on one. But i wish i could!

 

[jwaked]

Hey Greg, why would you replace your Fluidyne radiator with a PWR?

 

[drivemusicnow]

Hey Greg, why would you replace your Fluidyne radiator with a PWR?

I can't speak for Greg, however I'd ASSume he's going with the PWR for the increased capacity over the fluidyne. However, I'm sure Greg wants to send me the fluidyne

 

[Greg Collier]

Hey Greg, why would you replace your Fluidyne radiator with a PWR?

Going to the PWR 57mm radiator to keep cooler on those hot desert tracks...

 

[jwaked]

Is it a lot bigger than the Fluidyne? Where are you getting it from. I am in the middle of buying all the cooling parts and might as well go with the best one.

 

[Greg Collier]

Is it a lot bigger than the Fluidyne? Where are you getting it from. I am in the middle of buying all the cooling parts and might as well go with the best one.

Yes.. and I haven't gotten that far as to where I'll be purchasing it from... Probably directly from PWR? Ask them to sponsor me one?

 

[drivemusicnow]

Yes.. and I haven't gotten that far as to where I'll be purchasing it from... Probably directly from PWR? Ask them to sponsor me one?

PWR is a good company. I know they custom built a radiator for the SVX. Even included an auto transcooler as part of it for us. Wasn't the cheapest thing, but it still ended up cheaper than a new stock one with plastic endtanks. Good Luck with getting them to sponsor. If they can provide a product that isn't too much more than a fluidyne, I could see them gaining a lot of buyers by giving you one.

 

[T2Small]

Moroso Pan also does not like 2.3 or 2.4's as there isn't enough room for the crank and rods to swing.

On my 4GCS 2.4 build with Crower rods and ARP main studs, the Moroso also had a clearance issue. It was easily rectified by a 2lb hammer. I just put an excessive amount of engine assembly lube on the ARP heads and rotated the crank until it made contact with the pan so I could find the contact points. The clearancing required about 1mm deep dent in a 3 seperate 1" square areas.

 

[1LE]

Is the PWR thicker than the Fluidyne?

I was looking into a Fluidyne when I had the front of my car all torn apart before, but since it was thicker it would not fit with my setup. I did get rid of my A/C condensor at that time and that did the trick anyways. Been at the track on *near* 100F/100% day (worst we ever get around here) and the coolant temp never rose above 85C. Still, if there was something "better" that would fit...

 

[Slow old poop]

Here's what I've decided to do (re the 1st post in this thread) after getting inputs from everybody here.

First, the head got a stage IV port & polish at CFM Performance in Indiana. They replaced all the bent valves and guides. It should be delivered here next week.
About $400, depending on how many parts were needed.

Next, the short block is being built by AutoMotorSport in Chicago. It's getting:
2.3 stroker kit
Ross 8.8 pistons
Eagle forged rods
Clevite bearings
front and rear main seals
new oil pump
new race balance shaft removal kit (apparently, the standard way of just plugging the balance shaft holes is not OK for road racing. AMS puts a partial balance shaft back in, to take some of the load off the oil pump. Or something like that. It should also lower my super high oil pressure)
ARP main studs (I already have ARP head studs)
O ring block
balanced and blueprinted.
$3796 with tax.

We decided against the Moroso oil pan. I can spend $500 elsewhere. Besides, it doesn't fit a stroker without modifications, and I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in with advice. It looks like I am getting a STRONG lower end, capable of running two seasons.

Next thread: dyno-tuning a road race motor.

What kind of hp do you think this might generate at 20psi with a 20G Frank turbo?

Rich

 

[captkirk9195]

So when I say on a 100F day I normally see 130C coolant temps and 300F oil temps, ya think there's a cooling issue?

I'm wondering if I need to goto a different FMIC (Currently have a Big Greddy)