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1G Best source for replacement knock sensor?

Posted by benspilk09, Sep 16, 2019

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  1. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

    26
    3
    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Car is a '91 TSi AWD.

    I'm having random phantom knock problems, and my knock sensor has lost it's goo so I'm sure it's bad. Its happening randomly under vacuum, I haven't seen it knock under boost.

    Anyway, where is the best place to get a new knock sensor? Looks like OEM is discontinued. Autozone/oreilly shows they can get an aftermarket one, but I'm always wary of their sensors. It might be worse than what I have.

    Anyone have a source for OEM sensors, or a known good aftermarket?

    Thanks!
     
  2. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Independence, Kansas
    Be very leary. I ordered an MD141510 on FleaBay (Ebay). Had the box and a picture of the knock sensor in the ad. When I got the part it was in a plastic zip lock bag with a yellow sticky note asking me to give them 5 star feedback...........NO FRICKIN WAY. Part had NO numbers on it, looked like a 2g knock sensor but WHO KNOWS what it responded to. Anyway, filed a complaint with Ebay over bait and switch practices and got my money back but I have no clue what the sensor will do. It has the correct connector but you really wouldn't know if it worked or not unless it registered knock which I was afraid it would not and that is what killed my engine to start with.
    Just be very careful with any aftermarket sensors.
    If I HAD to run one, I would install it and then start a log and smack the block with a hammer a few times and see what the log shows.
    I can get a stock one (OR WAS ABLE TO) but the price isn't close to friendly anymore.
    Marty
     

    Street Build 3K  27

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  3. curt-s

    curt-s Proven Member

    762
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    Winterville, MB, Canada
    that it picks up sounds likena piezoelectric mic should is one thing but since determining knock is timed to combustion events the sensor has to react correctly, within the correct frequency range, and with predictable delay to be effective. this is something knockoffs may very well be unable to do, so hitting with a hammer may not give you a real picture of whether it works or not.

    once we lose ability to find old sensors i think we have to switch to using newer ECUs. even the 2g sensor is gone now. if mine dies, i bet a blackbox is next..
    or we are looking at aftermarket entirely.
     

    Street Build 2K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi
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  4. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Independence, Kansas
    What's a shame about this situation is that, Standard Motors is located right here in my town, I have relatives that work there and I can't pull enough strings to get them to produce the things anymore.
    Really sucks to have them here in a town of 9000, and they have the blueprints for them, but are not producing them anymore.......:banghead:
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    262  13

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    364  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 518  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  5. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

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    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Well that's not reassuring. I suppose I'll leave it be for now unless I can find a new OE one. It does seem to be working, just overly sensitive.
     
  6. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    4,250
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    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    262  13

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    364  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 518  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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    iugrad92turbo likes this.
  7. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

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    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    Yep, I see a bunch like that on ebay. It seemed way too cheap.

    Rockauto had the NTK sensors in stock a few months ago if I remember correctly, I'm kicking myself for not ordering one then. I assume they were the OE manufacturer.

    I guess I'll contact NGK/NTK and see if there are any more on the way.
     
  8. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Let us know what you find out!
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    262  13

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    364  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 518  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  9. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    Joined Jun 9, 2019
    Jackson, Wyoming
    I had something similar only different recently, when I wanted to replace my failed 1g gsx fuel level sender. Mine had resistance bounding all over the place, way out of spec. I noticed that the fwd is essentially the same gauge, with different mounting and slightly different float arm configuration. I bought one and tried to Frankenstein it , but was not delicate enough and damaged the fine wires that provide the resistance. $70 buck shot. I bought a universal one and a universal electrical adapter (converts the range of the sensor to whatever ohm range you program), and feel much better about the prospect now. I would have liked stock to be authentic and simple, but not feasible. Not sure what kind of input and output the knock sensor lives on, or how to test one. Possibly there are some in junked vehicles that have many miles of life left, but how to tell? I try to think like the manufacturer, as they usually adapt most of the parts in a car from other applications to save cost, or buy from a parts company that supplies other vehicles (bosh, denso, etc). Or they copy another auto maker's design. Knock sensors were kind of rare in the early 90's, so that makes it harder. You might do some research with the ECM folks, as this relates directly to the ECU, and theiy're Wicked Smahht.
     

    Street Build 238  6

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  10. 1cleangsx

    1cleangsx Proven Member

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    Cheyenne, Wyoming
    I bought mine at Napa, seems to be working as well as my old one:idontknow: Haven’t blown up the motor yet
     

    Street Build 1K  11

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.2 @ 104.64 · 1G DSM
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  11. wrencher

    wrencher Proven Member

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    Chicago, Illinois
    I've have 2 NTK ID0208 on order from them for almost 3 months now.
    Kind of unknown if the back order will be filled or not.

    Like stated above the only thing I've found readily available is the Chinese made eBay versions.
     
  12. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

    26
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    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    I've got a notifier set up on rockauto to let me know when the ID0208's are back in stock

    The supplier I contacted said they have them on order with no ETA, I hope they aren't extinct.
     
  13. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    They are. I bought them all......I notified the whole board that they were available still then I ordered 3 and the stock said ZERO. It has been that way ever since, for at least 3 months, I think. You may have to settle for a used one, I even go after them, as I build 6 bolts and need the sensors.
    Good luck, I don't know what to think of the generic ones on Ebay, but at some point I will HAVE to try one probably.
     

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    262  13

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    364  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 518  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  14. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    Joined Jun 9, 2019
    Jackson, Wyoming
    So indeed, I've done some more looking, and while NTK shows this item on their website on vehicle search, there is no "add to cart" option, as there is for, say, spark plugs. Hopefully this indicates they are out until their next production run, whence they will become available again. More alarming is if they remove the item from display from the search. Reading up on 1990DSM Mechanic's Manual, they simply describe these as generating a voltage in response to detonation, which is sent to the ECU, which then filters the input and can retard timing up to 3 degrees until knocking subsides. Makes me wonder how you are sure this has run afoul? Are you getting trouble code 31? Seems not easy to check, and I can find no reference to troubleshooting this part.
     

    Street Build 238  6

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  15. wrencher

    wrencher Proven Member

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    Chicago, Illinois
    I am in the same boat, I will likely try and confirm operation with a lab scope.

    They can definitely run afoul ....

    The only way I know of to confirm a knock sensor circuit truly is with a lap scope.

    But there is a test procedure in the FSM;

    OPERATION

    The detonation sensor is provided in a position allowing accurate detection of knocking generated in each cylinder. The cylinder block vibration generated by knocking is detected. Proportionally to its magnitude, the Voltage is output. Since the block frequency generated by knocking is known on each engine, ECU only detects knocking through the frequency filter to control the retard angle of the ignition timing according to the strength of the knocking.

    TROUBLESHOOTING HINTS

    If the detonation sensor is troubled, a slight reduction of power will be felt since the ignition timing angle is forcibly retarded.

    1gdtc31p1.png 1gdtc31p2.png 1gdtc31p3.png
     
    1990TSIAWDTALON and Mech Addict like this.
  16. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    Jackson, Wyoming
    Nice find. I missed that. I don't doubt that they can go bad. "Slight reduction in power" could be difficult to judge, More searching on the NTK website and others revealed that although there seem to be over 100 models of these sensors, they seem based on only 3 or 4 basic styles, with the main variation as wiring connection. Some look like donut stethoscopes bolted through the center. Many are like the eclipse model, especially those for Mazdas, but with only 1 terminal on the connector, instead of three. Perhaps a call to the NTK thech folks could find what equivalent would work given a little adaptive wiring. I could easily imagine that there is much similarity in the electrical characteristics of many of these. I'm thinking like temp sensors or something.
     

    Street Build 238  6

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  17. wrencher

    wrencher Proven Member

    314
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    Joined Nov 20, 2005
    Chicago, Illinois
    I wish it where that simple to find a single signal wire ground shielded piezoelectric knock sensor with a 10 x 1.25 thread.
    ( as you can tell I have been seeking an alternative)
    But these cars are kind of early in the knock sensor days and they seem to be a bit unique.
    The 1g's and starion's seem to share a little in this arena.
    And from what I understand not the same as the 2g sensor (also more or less unavailable) or similar in function to the evo detonation/knock sensors.

    They are more so tuned to the engine and the PCM/ECU.
    So I am hoping NGK steps up.
    I am pushing them thru my parts jobber contacts to the company direct and haven't been told no yet.
    But I've searched high and low and there is only the Chinese ones.

    Here is a list of every aftermarket knock sensor part number
    I've looked and looked and........
    Maybe one of these part numbers will come back into stock and someone can post back up here.
    BECK/ARNLEY 158-1027
    AIRTEX 5S2311
    CARQUEST 71-6686
    IMC 802 37015 001
    WELLS SU3303
    INTERAMERICAN MOTOR MD141510
    WD EXPRESS 802 37015 001
    ACDelco 213-2287
    CHRYSLER MD141510
    MITSUBISHI E1T15075
    AMC MD141510
    STANDARD MOTOR KS28
    MITSUBISHI MD141510
    DELPHI AS10050
    KEMPARTS 144703
    STANDARD INTERMOTOR WIRE KS28
    WELLS 716686
    GP SORENSEN KS28
    OE MD141510
    ECHLIN DKS500
    BWD S8654
    AutoZone KS28
    WARNER S8654
    AutoZone 5S2311
    DELPHI AS1005011B1
    GM 89054024
    BORG WARNER S8654
    SORENSEN KS28
    NAPA DKS500
    NAPA ECHDKS500
     
  18. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    4,250
    1,775
    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas

    Street Build 3K  27

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    262  13

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    364  17

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 518  4

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  19. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

    53
    20
    Joined Jun 9, 2019
    Jackson, Wyoming
    Wow, that's a lot of part numbers. Hard to believe there is one on the shelf at a Napa in some small town somewhere.
     

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    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  20. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

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    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    So I was doing some more research today and have found that the sensor for a DSM is identical to the knock sensor on a 99-05 Miata, and Mitsubishi is the company that made them for Mazda.

    These sensors are still available, NTK part number ID0170, and you can still get the Mitsubishi branded part from the Mazda dealer. Has anyone tried one? The connector would need to be swapped of course.
     
  21. curt-s

    curt-s Proven Member

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    Winterville, MB, Canada
    for a dsm? there are two types of sensors, 1g or 2g, which were already determined not to be compatible.
    if its for a late model miata, chances are its a late model dsm as well.
    how did you find out they were the same? they might be close but not exactly.. mitsu made transistor power units for miatas as well but they arent interchangeable even though they look identical except for pinout

    however i am open to this working since i run a 95 ecu.. just not going to try it because, unless you have controllable conditions and can generate knock on command, you never know when its not picking up when it should be.
     

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  22. benspilk09

    benspilk09 Probationary Member

    26
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    Joined Feb 16, 2010
    Little Rock, Arkansas
    The 1g and 2g knock sensors do not look the same.

    The Mazda sensor looks like a 1g sensor. The 2g sensor looks like the evo 8 sensor.

    I'm going to try and contact NTK and see if their engineering department determine if the guts of the two sensors are the same. I have a hunch that all that's different is the plug on the end. I was just wondering if anyone has already investigated this, and I'm wasting my time.

    Also, standard motor co makes the Mazda sensors as well, so they may be able to tell.
     
  23. Jk's97DSM

    Jk's97DSM Proven Member

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  24. Jk's97DSM

    Jk's97DSM Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 27, 2006
    Chesapeake, Virginia
    I just requested two separate quotes for orders. Both are the same price list cost. To order, if even available to order, I’d need to make a profit. If I have enough of interest I’d definitely have them ordered after my house finalizes.
     

    Street Build 383  1

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM
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  25. curt-s

    curt-s Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 21, 2008
    Winterville, MB, Canada
    awesome leg work you're doing, definitely keep us posted.
    dont think anybody disputes the visual differences between sensors but some out there still ask if you can interchange. im not sure if id be surprised or not that an early model sensor would be sold to another company for later model integration.. but let us know what they say.
     

    Street Build 2K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi
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