Bad idle and even more problems

[Fotowntalon]

So I am at a loss, my problems first started when I got my crower stage 2 cams installed. It was stalling everytime i switched into neutral. The problem went away after about a week and the car ran great. I thought it was the ECU learning the cams, so instead of beeing happy with my car running great, I went out and bought the afx/ECU. The problem began happening again after installation of the AFX/ECU, so obviously I assumed new ECU is having to relearn everything.

The problem slowly went away and only occured after i would back-up or if it was raining heavily. After much searching i saw a post on 2gnt, where a guy had a simular problem and simply opened up his TB a little and the problem went compeltly away. Naturally I tried the fix and things got even better.

Brings us to almost now (sorry for long post, want to be thorough). With the car running better I got a CEL thrown in, P0141 (downstream heated 02 sensor circuit low voltage [bank 2]), i checked under my car and my wire as incinerated, but didnt really worry because it was the 02 sensor behind the cat, which i didnt think would cause any problems. Shortly after my car gave me the code P0172 (System Adaptive fuel to rich bank 2). From there my idle problems got worse, and my vacuum was running around 10. I had remembered bulletsdown saying that with the TB open it can make the system run rich becuase it is adapting for the extra air flow. I undid the TB beeing opened and the stalling got 4 times worse. I re-opened it slightly at idle got better and with a low vacuum i assumed it was a vaccum leak.

I took out my IM and TB, put gasket sealer around the gaskets to make sure no air was flowing out of there, to be 100% sure it wasnt a vacuum leak I even removed my EGR (had some small hunches it was going bad anyways) and gasketed up those areas. While my TB was off I even cleaned the IAC, even though looked clean i figured it couldnt hurt. Put everything together all to find out things were the same (although cleaner with no EGR)

My vacuum is still running with a fluctuation between 9-10 I sometimes still stall in neutral when reversing. I have most my vacuum ports plugged. So naturally I think my timing is off from cam installs. I went out and bought a UDP (figured it would give me more of a reason to check my timing) Installed the UDP, checked the timing and DEAD ON!. I start to drive feeling a little releaved from my timing beeing good, when all of a sudden more CEL'S!!!

Misfires in cylinders 2 &4, multiple misfires! I don't get how installing a UDP can cause this, the udp is from unorthadox racing, not a cheap ebay one. So now I got multiple misfires, stalling in neutral and a headache from trying to fix this. Please help! I don't see how an 02 sensor, one that is behind a Test Pipe (yes i have a test pipe) could cause all this, but maybe i am just thick.

The MSD coil is good, plugs are good, plug wires are good, everything gapped fine. Fuel filter changed 10k miles ago. Clicking is coming from all injectors, car really hasnt shown any hesitation or problems when driving, Idle does fidget a tad bit, around 1k-1.1k or 600-700 depends on what the car feels like going. If you want all my mods they are listed in my profile, any help is greatly appriciated.

 

[Fotowntalon]

**UPDATE**

So I decided to replace the fuel filter, figured it couldnt hurt and it was cheap, and after all new cams would need efficient fuel flow, as you can assume this didnt help.

Later on that night I stalled twice at Mcdonalds, and my cars lights were fidgeting with a really eratic idle. After it died, i'd start it up and it would be fine for a couple minutes then back to the horrible idle (Mcdonalds was runnign very slow this night). Then it got worse, my car started overheating...

Frusterated, the next day I went out, and got my new 02 sensor for behind my cat. Put it on, and decided to check my coolant sense I was overheating the night before, a little low, so i filled it up. When I started putting my hood down, somehow miraculasly outa the corner of my eye, i noticed my positive terminal to my battery was loose. and i mean LOOSE! I'm guessing my cam idle has slowly unloosened it or something, so i tightened it up and started driving, and WOW, felt like my car had new life, peppy energetic and more responsive, all from an overlooked basic.

Now not all is fixed, I cleared 4 of my 7 codes.
What is fixed- 02 sensor, running rich, mutliple misfires, cylinder 2 misfire.
Codes left- EGR circuit malfuntion (not going to get rid of this one, after all i removed the EGR), and Misfire cylinder 4 (P0304) and another code read P0304 p/d (not sure what the p/d means) Also the car still has a tiny idle surge of about 100rpms, but it is catching itself much better when going into neutral.

So in conclusion almost done, but still need help on how to fix my cylinder 4 misfire, as stated before its not the plugs/coil/wire and click is coming from injectors, any help is appriciated, i need my baby top notch for the 16th!

 

[96TurboGS]

If your 100 percent sure your timing and ignition components are correct....

*EDIT

I know you already checked your IM gasket, but you may want to double check it for tears and rips. I believe p/d means it's a pending code. You may want to check the ASD relay to make sure its supplying enough amps. Other things to check would be your compression on all cylinders, faulty plugs or wires and faulty injector.

 

[TOONAH]

You know valve seating issues or burnt valves can cause misfires.
If I was you, I would do a compression check on all four cylinders (with the engine hot).
If you use cams that have more lift and duration, you really should use adjustable cam sprockets. You can fine tune the engine by advancing/retarding the intake and exhaust cams independently. In actual fact there is no point in using more progressive cams, like 272's unless you go with oversized valves and better valve springs. You should also "Degree" the camshafts or use adjustable cam sprockets. It also helps to open up the valve bowls a bit, ports too. "Valve float" can cause misfires at high rpm's. Most 272 cams should only be used with better valve springs. 284's should be coupled with dual valve springs. I don't like them because they can under certain conditions bind together.
You should also use a timing light to check your base timing and make sure there are no boost leaks.
Good luck!

 

[Fotowntalon]

thanks for the info, i plan on getting a resistance measurer, or w.e the thing is called that measures ohms so i can check the relay. As for the IM gasket, I only put gasket sealer where the upper part of the IM meets the bottom half. Hopefully I will get some free time this weekend to take the whole thing off and see if I can find a leak there, been meaning on taking it off anyways (got a heatsheild for that specific spot a good 4 months ago).

As with compression test, i will try and get that done tomarrow and post the results.

I am 100% sure I have no boost leak though one of the few pluses of beeing all motor. As far as adjustable cam gears, I plan on getting them eventually, but with the bugdet atm, it will be a while. Valve float is something I am scared of, but i am fairly certain i read it was proven stock valves and springs were proven to be good up to 7500 rpms, I wanna say it was bullet who tested that, but not 100%.

Anyways, thanks for the help, i'll get the tests done as time permits and get the results back asap.

 

[Fotowntalon]

So went out tonight and wow, its terribly hot out.. anyways...

Turned on my car, let it idle for about 5 mins, temp was a little over 1/4, turned it off, and did my compression test, and i think either i did something wrong or i didnt have it warmed up enough, regardless, my numbers were rather close, although low

#1 - 136 #2 - 110 #3 - 136 #4 - 120

Now here is a weird thing, when you normally try and start it without a spark, it makes the reving sound like its trying to start, and thunk thunk right? Well it wasnt making that "thunk" sound after the first one in cylinder 4, if that makes any sense, i even took it out, whent back to 3, tryed it, got the thunk thunk thunk thunk and back to 4 again and still only one thunk then no more... wierd.

I also had everything together and tryed to pull the injector wire outa 4 to see if it changed the idle and, not sure if you need a tool or special way to do it, but couldnt get the thing off. I got it loose enough to where if u pushed it back down it clicked in, but couldnt get the thing off (thats what she said) Regardless the idle didnt change. Is that a good enough of a test of can seomeone give me some advice to get the injector off?

 

[96TurboGS]

...

Usually when you pull a injector and nothing happens it means that cylinder isn't firing.

I know you said your wires were good, but how do you know there is nothing wrong with your wires if you didn't check it with a DVM? Even new wires can die within the first thousand or so miles, or have a loss of connection if there not pushed all the way in. Try swapping plug wires 1 and 4, clear codes and see if there is a misfire on cylinder 1 - Code: P0301. If that doesn't work try the swapping cylinder 4's injectors with cylinder 1 (not injector harnesses!!) to see if there is a change between the two. The forth injector harness is an azz to get to, so just use a pair of pliers to get the harness off.

 

[Fotowntalon]

i know the wires are good because i swapped the wires 1 and 4 when i first got the code.

Tomarrow i'll try taking the harness off the injector again with pliers, i am pretty sure the idle sound didnt change, but was hard to tell with my hands hitting the throttle cable every time i tryed to unplug it.

This weekend i will more than likly being taking off my IM and replaceing the gasket, and possibly even chaning the injector depending on this test. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

[bullettdsm]

my numbers were rather close, although low

#1 - 136 #2 - 110 #3 - 136 #4 - 120

...........can seomeone give me some advice to get the injector off?

Did you open the throttle body when you did the comp check?

The injector clip removes by squeezing the ends (to release the side "catches") and then pulling away. The come off pretty easy when you do that.

MB

 

[Fotowntalon]

when i did the comp check i just disconnected the coil pack, removed the plugs and threaded the comp tester in and tryed to turn it over. Although i did mention before my Tb is slightly open from before with fixing my idle drop.. could that be a reason for low compression numbers? As for the injector clip i squeezed the sides and tryed pulling, like i said it moved a little at first, but then felt stuck, gonna try again when my engine cools down some. Just wish i had a little more room for my hands...

 

[Fotowntalon]

**update**

Soo strangest thing, like said the first time i couldnt get the damn injecter harness off the injector, i tryed and tryed to no avail. Today i tryed again with the engine off, this time with some lockjaws, and the damn thing still wouldnt budge. After the lockjaws didnt work i used my hands, and the damn thing slid off nice and easy. I reconnected it, tryed again, no problem, so then i turned my engine on and got it off. Odd. anyways, when i disconnected the #4 injector harness nothing changed, ran like nothing happened, so would this mean abd injector or bad injector harness?

 

[bullettdsm]

.. could that be a reason for low compression numbers?...

Yes it could.

.. As for the injector clip i squeezed the sides and tryed pulling, like i said it moved a little at first, but then felt stuck, gonna try again when my engine cools down some. Just wish i had a little more room for my hands...

Yeah, its a little tight in there.

MB

 

[Fotowntalon]

My head is hurting and i hate my car right now.

when driving on my way to autozone to buy a ohms reader, i got more CELs....
P0204 -- Injector no. 4 output driver not responding properly.
P0300 -- Multiple cylinder fire detected
P0302 -- Cylinder number 2 misfire detected
and last but not least was either P0354 or a P00352 cant remember which one but regardless it leads to Ignition coil No. 2 or 4 (depending on code) primary circuit fault.

Now to me it makes it seem like my coil is bad, but when i had it checked at autozone last wednesday everything read in range... Now this. I got home and put the coil pack on my new ohms tester, and it was reading outa range secondary resistance was at 14,300 (suppose to be 11,500 - 13,500) and primary read at 1.3 (suppose to be 0.51-0.61, all number according to haynes manual). Granted there is a chance of human error, this was my first time using an ohms tester.

I am suprised to see my coil could be going bad, it was a MSD coil, only been on for about a year. I'm ordering a Screaming Deamon from howell tonight, and will be replacing my IM gasket this saturday. Unless anyone has a better idea. I guess it is possible that the coil was slowly going bad and just tested right at the right time, but i dont know. If neither of these sulutions work then i dont know, i am to stressed out to think about it.

 

[Fotowntalon]

**UPDATE**

So I had some time this weekend, ripped off my entire IM, and fuel rail and fuel injectors. I found that my number 4 injecter had a tad bit of dirt on the tip where it sprays out fuel, cleaned that and reinstalled. Used a hondata neon 2.0 heat sheild/ IM gasket part for where the IM meats the engine (Heatshield), and a new gasket for where the IM upper and lower meets.

Started the car up, and my idle was around 1300, figure it was because i still had my TB adjusted to be open a tad, went back in, fixed it. Started up again, idle still high, i hit the gas, and after i let up my idle went to 2k and stuck there ?!?!?! i was freaking out figuring i caused an even worse vacuum leak. Frantic i popped my hood and noticed my HUGE noob mistake. upon putting everything back together I had forgot to plug back in my IAC and TPS...

Now with everything plugged in, i started the car up and it ran smooth, a nice 800 idle. Drove it around the block a couple times, and no sent of it trying to stall. Seems like i must of had a vacuum leak were the IM meets the head.

Now I havnt redone a vacuum test yet to see where I am, but will later on today. Going to clear my codes, and run the car for awhile to see if that also took care of my misfires. If it didnt I have a set of injectors coming in the mail along with a new coil so that will be the last straw, will keep ya guys updated!

 

[RoninEclipse2G]

Good to hear that you've got it running well.

 

[Fotowntalon]

**UPDATE**

So while the car is idling better, the misfires in 2 and 4 are still there. I had time today so i replaced my 2 and 4 injectors, suprise suprise no change. From there I barrowed my friends ohms meter and checked my coil pack. It was off, so i replaced that with the howell Screaming deamon, and regapped my plugs to 65 (as reccomended for the deamon). Drove it around and while the car felt more responsive, the misfires where still there, and ontop of it, i got a running rich code from bank 1... *sigh*

I imagine if a msd coilpack can go bad in around a years time, then my wires might not be as good as i thought. So going to try and find some blue 8.5mm wires. If that doesnt work, then i think i have to throw in the white flag and take it to a mechanic. Any ideas appriciated... but things not going that well in fotown.

 

[RoninEclipse2G]

your rich code is related to the misfire. That would lead me to believe that in hunting your bad injectors down it may have fried some plugs.

I'd try some cheap wires and a known working coil with some fresh plugs since you know that your injectors are working properly.

 

[Fotowntalon]

ronin what happened to your picture!?!?! Alright, that makes sense. Like i said the coil is brand new, and tested in parameters, i'll go to autozone tomarrow and grab some fresh plugs and install them with my fresh wires which should be here tomarrow too.

 

[RoninEclipse2G]

that's what happens when you're engine is part of a garage/house fire. I was rebuilding it and the head that WAS sitting next to it. Aluminum doesn't like to be close to ~4000* magnesium fires (it was next to an old VW transaxle, not much left.)

Remember to reset your ECU to clear the codes so that you can see if there's still a problem

 

[Fotowntalon]

**Update**

So my running rich whent away, but i still have misfires in 2&4... fun fun. Decided to take it to a garage with much superior diagnostic computers. After driving it around with the mechanic, and running the diagnostics, he told me that all the elctronics are operating fine. The only thing he could think of is that my valves are sticking, due to the fact that it didnt seem to misfire till after it was idling for a little while and got warmed up. He said that would also explain why they seemed to be more common during running hard, that the heat would make them stick more. He told me to call up crower and to see if others have had any simular problems, and that he could give me some addative to put in my oil to help the valves out. What do you guys think?

 

[Fotowntalon]

**UPDATE**

So i finally took my car to a shop determined to end the misfires once and for all. I took the car to pure tuning in Toledo, to get new valve springs and replaced the head gasket in case it was leaking, and lets be honest, if the head is going to be torn apart, then why the hell not get it ported right?

Finally got all the work completed. Started driving it home, and noticed the idle was WAY better, which surprised me after a port job. On top the that i didn't notice any misfire, the car was running immaculate. After about 45mins of driving, and around 10mins from home some cars were going to slow, so what better time to pass them right?

I pass the first car, getting the revs of to 5k easily, no problems, nice pull, come up to the second car and downshift to pass, about 3/4 past the car with the rpms around 6k, something happens. It felt like i hit fuel cut or something, and the car completely died, so i glide off to a side road and put on the ol 4ways. Try to start the car up to no avail.

The battery was fine, as the car was trying to turn over nicely. After about 4-5 times of trying to turn it on i give up and call for a tow...

One thing i noticed is after the first 2 times is after turning the car completely off, and then back on, their was no fuel pump whine of it trying to prime itself. I AM hoping that its simply a fuel pump relay or a fuel pump. I have a brand new walbro 255 in the basement that i bought a long time ago (when i was debating on piecing together a turbo kit,) and could use that to save some money if that's the problem.

Sadly it was to late to work on the car when i got it home, so tomorrow i will test the fuel pump and the relay, and make sure I am getting spark. Only other thing i could possibly think of is somehow the timing belt skipped a notch or two or something horrible happened with the valves, but if that were the case were it try to turn over so freely? Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated, I'll update again tomorrow.

 

[bullettdsm]

**UPDATE**

It felt like i hit fuel cut or something, and the car completely died, so i glide off to a side road and put on the ol 4ways. Try to start the car up to no avail.

The battery was fine, as the car was trying to turn over nicely. After about 4-5 times of trying to turn it on i give up and call for a tow...

Sadly it was to late to work on the car when i got it home, so tomorrow i will test the fuel pump and the relay, and make sure I am getting spark. Only other thing i could possibly think of is somehow the timing belt skipped a notch or two or something horrible happened with the valves, but if that were the case were it try to turn over so freely? Any suggestions or comments will be appreciated, I'll update again tomorrow.

Ouch. It does have the earmarks of......well, let's keep happy thoughts but check out the belt (and maybe comp) anyway

Keep in mind that whatever the problem was, could have been addressed by the pulling of the head. Maybe mechanical (valves/headgasket), maybe vacuum (cracked/separated line), maybe electrical (cracked connection/connector). Or it could still be in hiding (say a fuel pump or injector intermitten problem). So don't just assume that it was sticky valves (BUT be happy if its fixed .

Sad to say, this just happened two nights ago (yes almost exact same circumstances, except without the downshift) on a friends' car that we JUST did the tranny in. BUT keep happy thoughts like, hopefully, at least the shop would be responsible for it

Good luck,

MB

Oh yeah, one of the quickie ways I narrow it down for fuel related problems is give it a shot of starter fluid into the TB. If she "starts and runs" for a second then it is probably fuel related and I work from there.

 

[Natedsmeclipse]

ok i only had time to read the 1st few post and not the hole page. i was reading the part were you said you cracked the t/b open more and the car ran better. yes that's what you have to do. but to keep the ECU from reading that you have readjust the TPS on the back of the TB. you just have to loosen to small bolts and recalibrate it so it will think that you are at 0% throttle when in fact your not. good luck i have a 95 gs eclipse with turbo and i was running stock ecu with stage to cams and no O2 sensors i had a SAFC II to override it all i could decide how much fuel to give it.

 

[Fotowntalon]

*little update*

Well first the good news, the belt looked fine and i got compressions on all 4 so woot! Bad news I am not getting spark or fuel pressure (assumed the fuel pressure since there is no whine to the pump). Need to wait until tomorrow for my new MFI(also known as the ASD, and i feel like thats a hint ) and the fuel pump relay come in. They looked caroaded(sp?), but who knows, i am hoping for the best. It started to rain, so tomorrow i am replacing the fuel pump and relays.

All connectors and wires appeared fine. I sprayed starting fluid in but didn't work, which i know now is because there is no spark. Coil tested fine.Plugs gaps were off a bit, so readjusted them, wires fine to.

new relays installed, still nothing, no spark, no priming of fuel pump... My g/f drives a 97 esi just like me but its an auto, would it be ok to use her ecu just to test to start the car to see if that's a problem? I hope it isnt, that howell is less than a year old.

**Z*

I am an idiot. Had my friend over to help me out, after showing him what it was doing and the symptoms, he took me fuse cover off, and BAM the fusible link was blown, replaced that and it started right up and revving like a champ!

So no start fixed, after i drive it around i fully expect the misfires to be gone, and it was idling perfectly. But for sake of argument mark this bi*** resolved! I'll get some pics of the new VC and a video of the great sound later on. thanks all for all the help and patients