Ask your water alcohol injection questions here.

[19BLACKGST98]

Ok guys I got the Dual nozzle set up this morning at 9am. It is all installed and the washer tank is full of 70/30 mix. I installed 2 DO10 nozzles (m10) So I am around 2.5 or so gal/hr more then what I need. How do I deal with that? Do I just turn the pressure down on the pump? I havnt driven the car since the install and I have dyno time schedualed for tomorrow so that my mechanic can get me tunned on 93/meth and C16. I just want to know what to do so it wont take as long to figure out tomorrow on the dyno.

Edit: I went over the math again and I just rounded my 5.71 gal/hr(5.71/.3 = 19 gal/hr) which I need to run pure water up to 6.00 (or M6 nozzle which doesnt exist). M6/.3 = 20 gal/hr so to run 30 psi I would just have to set the pump to around 130psi...maybe a little less. Correct?

 

[dsm-onster]

You need 5.71gal/hr of water flow for your 80% or 750s for which you've already don the math, right? This is for 20% water to fuel flow right?

You're injecting a 70/30 meth/water mix. So 5.71/.3 = 19gal/hr. You have 2 m10s so you're only 1 gal/hr over your maximum (20% water to fuel flow). You can just adjust the pump pressure a little. Or run a little more %IDC .

remember that this is set for your PEAK %idc. Every where youre injecting your mix and not at peak %idc, you'll be running more water and meth than you need. Of course this is fine. But just know that you may gain a little by backing off the pump pressure. So test this on the dyno if you can.

 

[romeen]

I didn't go through the math but that seems like a lot of injection volume. Personally I would recommend starting out with smaller nozzles and gradually working your way up to the minimum amount needed for your goal.

Just curious if you will be using a progressive controller or pressure switch? Have you decided where you will be setting your activation point?

 

[dsm-onster]

Alot of volume? well. Meth really needs alot of volume. It outputs very poor btus per gram during combustion. The water to fuel ratio has been proven time and time again. the volume increases over the proven water/fuel ratio to compensate for the meth. The math is there to keep the water/fuel at the proven ratio. . . Those numbers work in all my cars I tune with meth/water. I think water/meth injection isn't looked at more seriously because guys short themselves on the nozzle size. I did for the longest time. I ran a conservative nozzle because I was so concerned about loosing power injecting too much water. But I failed to realize that I could up my boost more to increase mass, and consequently fuel flow, to balance the water intake amount just as easily as I could run a conservative nozzle. Guys should be running those calculations to get nozzle size and pushing their setups to find the balance instead of going small on the nozzles and upping sizes until you get to a balance. You do that with an intercooler. It cools X amount; you can't add fins or plates. You see what you can get with what you have. And most get the bigger of their choices.

I prefer NOT to run a solenoid. The water/meth pump has to start over again pressurizing the line. This makes the flow come on gradual enough for all my setups so far.

 

[romeen]

Well I can't argue with success.

I've had my system installed for over a year but haven't had the chance to do much with it because so many other problems have come up. In fact, I pulled the fuse so the system is inactive until I can get a few other things sorted out.

Matt, what do you have your activation set to? IIRC your using the pressure switch?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

If going by the rule of the instructions Im supposed to start it at 7.5 psi and max at 22.5, So I will first try 8 psi and 22 i guess. (his is if I can get to my goal of 30 psi. Im leaving for the dyno now (after I drop my daughter off with a friend...I hope I dont have any trouble since I have to go to the track tomorrow)

 

[dsm-onster]

^&^^^^Yep. Actually I've found that begining injection at this boost works best for me with turbos that spool about as fast as 16g turbos: small 16g, evo 16g, td05h 18g, hx35 etc. The small lag of the water pump really helps reduce the bogging. 7-8psi for activation for me.

 

[Korndogg]

Wow, lots of good info in this thread.

I'm currently running 950cc injectors at ~85% IDC. I am running 50/50 meth/water with a single 12GPH injector (M10 coolingmist calls it.).

Looks like I am running only half of what I should be currently, and If I go to the recommended 70/30 mix, only a 3rd? Should I really run 3 M10 injectors (I know that's a little much, but I can adjust IDC of my meth injectors - run them at 80%)? Seems like a lot.

I see that cooling mist as 18GPH "inside thread" injectors, but only 12gph "outside thread" injectors, but I think I can put the former inside the latter. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can order (2) 18's rather than (3) 12's.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Well it took a while to figure the whole meth/making power thing out. I also found out that my 44mm tail waist gate spring will not allow me to run more than 28-30 pounds of boost. Since that was the case my meth injection numbers were actually higher than what we could get our of Race fuel. I will get a new spring and get a retune. Now onto the meth part.

Well we only adjusted the progressive controller, fuel and timing. Did not do any changes to the pump psi. The final 93/meth pull was 449whp with 14* timing on the 70/30 mix. My car didnt like timing for some reason??? This was at 26-28 psi. I liked how after about 70 pulls on the dyno the intake manifold was still cold. Then we put the 116 oct in and turned the meth system off and did about 10 more pulls.

 

[Car Cannibal]

With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water? The water aspect is why you can't flood out the injection and why DO doesn't recommend huge nozzles since they like 50/50 blends.

Don't screw with pump pressure, you want pressure, instead ditch injector pulse width at WOT to get your AF/R right where your vehicle is making the most power at.

I'd run it low 11's with Meth so when you hit the road you're mid 11's AF/R.

The car didn't like timing because you're charge temps are too high, drop the charge temp more and you'd be able to run more timing, go 100% METH.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water? The water aspect is why you can't flood out the injection and why DO doesn't recommend huge nozzles since they like 50/50 blends.

Don't screw with pump pressure, you want pressure, instead ditch injector pulse width at WOT to get your AF/R right where your vehicle is making the most power at.

I'd run it low 11's with Meth so when you hit the road you're mid 11's AF/R.

The car didn't like timing because you're charge temps are too high, drop the charge temp more and you'd be able to run more timing, go 100% METH.

Im actually running dual m10s. Thanks for the info. I am ordering a 20lb wastegate spring so i can crank up the boost on the 116oct tune that we didnt get to finish. During that I will have him mess with the meth tune a little.

 

[dsm-onster]

With the amount of volume you're injecting ( M10 and M7 ) why bother with any water?

Because water at only 15% of fuel flow nets 110 plus octane in the CC.

Meth can be injected at several times the amount of gasoline used and the final octane will be still less. You're better off switching from gasoline to methanol for fuel if youre really wanting to run pure meth. But running the mix allows the cooling effect of alcohol (cools FASTER than water). And you're still getting over 110octane in the CC since you're controling your water flow to 15-20% injection. Besides this negates the shear volume of meth required to do a good job. This saves ALOT of money over the course of even a month of driving. It's a win-win.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Because water at only 15% of fuel flow nets 110 plus octane in the CC.

Meth can be injected at several times the amount of gasoline used and the final octane will be still less. You're better off switching from gasoline to methanol for fuel if youre really wanting to run pure meth. But running the mix allows the cooling effect of alcohol (cools FASTER than water). And you're still getting over 110octane in the CC since you're controling your water flow to 15-20% injection. Besides this negates the shear volume of meth required to do a good job. This saves ALOT of money over the course of even a month of driving. It's a win-win.

Any ideas why we had to put the timing so low? I was hoping for about 50 more hp...but if its not there then its not there. The car did 79 pulls on the dyno last night with no problems (unless you consider a leaky oil cqap a problem). I do have to say that the meth impressed me. it beats out the 116 oct fuel at a lower boost setting and less timing.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I forgot to mention that i had to set my activation like this : starts at 7 psi and goes to full at like 14 psi. that is what kept the knock away.

 

[dsm-onster]

7psi is my activation point too. Does the best for me.

The timing had to be less because the fuel combination still burns a little faster. Did you get more power with race gas and the same boost with more aggresive timing?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

dsm-onster, do you still use just the pressure switch to engage your pump or do you have the progressive controller? It seems you're still on the switch. I'm just curious.

Also, attached is the MSDS for the Splash -20* Wiper Fluid I just picked up.

 

[dsm-onster]

Still on the hobbs switch here. Same switch for years now. Very reliable.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

7psi is my activation point too. Does the best for me.

The timing had to be less because the fuel combination still burns a little faster. Did you get more power with race gas and the same boost with more aggresive timing?

The only reason I asked the timing questions was because I found it odd that everyone I see post about Meth injection says they get to add 3* - 4* when I had to take timing away.

I got less power on race gas with more timing (dont remember exactly what it was set at though) and 2 more pounds of boost. We stopped doing the race fuel tune as soon as we realized we couldnt go over 30psi. I have already bought the small spring from my 44mm tail, I am just waiting to get back on the dyno. I know in the end I will make alot more power on race gas because I will be running 35 - 40 psi.

I went to NAPA the other day to get a Hobbs switch to make my meth injection kit more safe. I think I read somewhere while studying up on alcohol injection that you can make it to where if the kit fails the switch will open up so that the car only runs WG pressure. The problem is they had alot of them and I didnt know which one to ask for. Do you know the part number for the one I will need? With the new WG spring waste gate pressure will be at 20psi.

 

[dsm-onster]

I don't know why your setup didn't like more timing with the meth injection either. Did it make less power with more timing or detonate? Could you run more boost with the meth than 28 psi? There are 4g63 setups injecting the same meth to fuel ratio as you able to run over 35psi. Some run pure meth some run a mix, but they have about the same METH to fuel ratio as you. Many of them don't have alot of timing advance either, though. The primary fuel is still pump gasoline and so realistically you should still get more power from boost than timing even with water/meth injection.

The hobbs switch part number is on this page at the bottem. Click.


EDIT: It just dawned on me. Did you adjust your fuel tune much? Meth can be a little finiky with lambda. Of course being that meth needs to be at 6.3:1 for stoich and gasoline should be at 14.7:1 for stoich, you can see that when running meth injection you'll find that your lambda seen by the wideband doesn't get as rich as you might expect. This is because the final stoich of the meth/gas mix in the chamber will sit at 11-13:1, the average of the pars gasoline and parts methanol which have different stoich number. You're wideband is outputting an a/f ratio as if only gasoline were there, but since meth is added the wideband now is not giving you an accurate A/F ratio. Meth DOES NOT like to be run leaner than stoich. It can tolerate just fine and handle gobs of boost and timing up to a certain a/f ratio. Then once that a/f ratio threshold has been breached, it get's very angry very quick. Since meth is being added to the fuel, you will have that characteristic, mixed with the detonation prone pump gas . It comes down to having enough gasoline in the chamber take up enough of the oxygen to keep the meth happy, then the meth can help you do what ever you want. This is why I like having some water injected in proper amounts along with meth. When it's not happy the water can help keep it to knocking a little instead of cracking pistons.

So. . . you may actually need to add fuel to what would otherwise be a race gas tune to get less knock and take advantage of what a little more timing and/or boost may give you. Or you may not be able to take as much fuel out from a stock fuel curve. You may have to run .5-1 point richer based on the wideband.

Oh BTW, which form of race gas was used? Meth has an oxygen content. It's a great way to get a little more oxygen in the CC without working for it. 2:1 fuel to meth ratio brings about 1.68 parts oxygen to 100parts air when running at an actual 10:1 a/f ratio. Air is 20% oxygen, 20parts to 100parts total air. 1.68/20 = 8.4% more oxygen than otherwise without meth injection . That's like having 8.4% more airflow at the same boost. That's potentially 33whp gain over making 400whp with gasoline alone. Hence your better results with meth/water injection over race gas even at lower boost and less timing.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I don't know why your setup didn't like more timing with the meth injection either. Did it make less power with more timing or detonate? Could you run more boost with the meth than 28 psi? There are 4g63 setups injecting the same meth to fuel ratio as you able to run over 35psi. Some run pure meth some run a mix, but they have about the same METH to fuel ratio as you. Many of them don't have alot of timing advance either, though. The primary fuel is still pump gasoline and so realistically you should still get more power from boost than timing even with water/meth injection.

The hobbs switch part number is on this page at the bottem. Click.


. . . It just downed on me. Did you adjust your fuel tune much? meth can be a little finiky with lambda. Of course being that meth needs to be at 6.3:1 for stoich and gasoline should be at 14.7:1 for stoich, you can see that when running meth injection you'll find that your lambda seen by the wideband doesn't get as rich as you might expect. This is because the final stoich of the meth/gas mix in the chamber will sit at 11-13:1. meth DOES NOT like to be run lean. So you may actually need to add fuel to what would otherwise be a race gas tune to get less knock and take advantage of what a little more timing and/or boost may give you. Oh BTW, which form of race gas was used?

The car started knocking when the timing was increasted. He pulled the chip out right after that and burned it with lower timing a few times until there was no knock. He said I could run more boost but it was getting to where it wasnt enough of a gain to warrent it.

He adjusted the fuel with the SAFCII alot (we did 70 93/meth pulls on the dyno and 9 Senoco Maximal 116 oct pulls). He would adjust it and reburn the chip alot of times. We did not use meth at all with the race gas either. The whole thing may be due to me and my tuners inexperiance with Meth Injection. 449whp isnt bad for a car with a turbo that is rated at 502hp I guess.

 

[dsm-onster]

So you went from 26-28psi with methanol injectiona nd pump gas and gained not as much a difference in power as running race gas and going from 28psi to 30psi?

I'm not understanding how you can get no more power with upping the boost with one fuel but not another. IF you're no knocking with either, then you should get more power simply because there's more fuel and air in the chamber. If more flow can be had with the turbo then more flow can be had. Was it that the tuner kept having to back off timing when turning up the boost with the meth/water injection and pump gas as opposed to the race gas? If that's the case then most certainly I think you all didnt' try a rich enough tune and the meth is becoming finiky. It get's very finiky when approaching it's stoich. Under that threshhold you can get away with SO much though.

Brian Brummel went 131mph with a full weight galant and the fp3052. Yea there is more in it. BTW he was running an alcohol for fuel.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

This is the quote from that other link with the part number on it. Would you say its better to use that actual part with the bleed or should I just get the adjustable one? I dont mind spending the $8 if its a better more user friendly product.

The activation switch: For initial testing purposes, I used a pushbutton switch mounted on my shifter to activate the system. This way, I could activate the system manually to easily compare before and after results. Unless you are using this system as an external intercooler sprayer, you will probably want to use the following Hobbs normally open pressure switch: Part number 76575 (NAPA#701-1575), which you can get at NAPA auto parts. This switch triggers at 5psi, but you can set it higher by using a bleed. The switch cost $25 and the bleed about $2. This makes it cheaper than an adjustable switch by about $8 (hey, it's a "budget" system).

 

[19BLACKGST98]

So you went from 26-28psi with methanol injectiona nd pump gas and gained not as much a difference in power as running race gas and going from 28psi to 30psi?

I'm not understanding how you can get no more power with upping the boost with one fuel but not another. IF you're no knocking with either, then you should get more power simply because there's more fuel and air in the chamber. If more flow can be had with the turbo then more flow can be had. Was it that the tuner kept having to back off timing when turning up the boost with the meth/water injection and pump gas as opposed to the race gas? If that's the case then most certainly I think you all didnt' try a rich enough tune and the meth is becoming finiky. It get's very finiky when approaching it's stoich. Under that threshhold you can get away with SO much though.

Brian Brummel went 131mph with a full weight galant and the fp3052. Yea there is more in it. BTW he was running an alcohol for fuel.

Ok I will give a little prier car back ground. I have had the car since 2003. Started modding it. After mods were installed I took the car to FP and had it tuned on their dyno the results were 402whp on 93 oct. Last July one of my forged pistons decided to grenade so I had another Engine built (wiesco pistons, crower rods). While it was down I upgraded some things. I went with a JMF SMIM with a 75mm Throttle body, FP Race manifold, Bigger intercooler with 3" upper pipe and 2.5" Lower and a Devils own Meth kit. So far those upgrades have gained me 47whp. (both were on a dyno jet)

Im not sure if he stopped uping the boost because of Knock or not. He just said that when 1psi gets you less that 1hp (or maybe he said 5hp) then its not worth it to up the boost (Deminishing returns?). I does sound like it wasnt a rich enough tune from the way you describe it though. I thought we were supposed to tune the widband to 12.0 - 12.5 though which is lean not rich?

On a side not he belives that when we use the race gas and turn up the boost that the car will be right around 550whp so that would be 100hp diffrence between 93/meth and Senoco Maximal 116oct.

EDIT: Also with those upgrades I went from hitting full boost right at or slightly before 4,000rpms to hitting full boost between 4,700 and 4,800 rpms.

 

[dsm-onster]

No offense intended toward him at all, but is this the same tuner that said meth injection netted no benefits?

Brian made a 600whp pass with a fuel that has 35% more oxygen in it than gasoline plus has ahs to be run richer than gasoline. Which makes sense, At 8:1 a/f ratio (good for e-85) you're putting in 21% (.21) more oxygen into the CC than with boost and gasoline (0% oxygen content). 600whp / 1.21 = 496whp. And the turbo is a 500whp turbo. Unless the race fuel is more oxygenated, there's no way he can get that much more power and not get a good amount more than what you have put down now with pumpgas/meth.

If he had to drop timing so much percentage more than race fuel as he's upping the boost, then there probably is an underlying problem we're not seeing. Brian Brummel ran 33psi to see that power with an alcohol fuel mix with 15% gasoline. There's no way you can NOT see a significant increasein power when upping boost past what you have it set at for meth injection. He MUST have had to run the timing way more retarded than optimal for the meth/gas mix in the chamber. I'm suggesting that the gasoline fuel curve is too lean to keep the meth happy. But there could be another problem we're not seeing I guess.

What your wideband is outputting is based off of being calibrated to 14.7 as stoich. You ar not running 12.5:1 a/f ratio, you are running 12.5/14.7 = .85lambda. I can figure out your stoich number for your setup in a moment by knowing how much meth you're injecting and what your %IDC is. What was your peak %IDC? After that I can tell you what your real A/F ratio is because I know that you are running .85lambda.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

No offense intended toward him at all, but is this the same tuner that said meth injection netted no benefits?

Brian made a 600whp pass with a fuel that has 35% more oxygen in it than gasoline plus has ahs to be run richer than gasoline. Which makes sense, At 8:1 a/f ratio (good for e-85) you're putting in 21% (.21) more oxygen into the CC than with boost and gasoline (0% oxygen content). 600whp / 1.21 = 496whp. And the turbo is a 500whp turbo. Unless the race fuel is more oxygenated, there's no way he can get that much more power and not get a good amount more than what you have put down now with pumpgas/meth.

No it is not the same tuner that said that. My mechanic/person that is tuning my car is new to meth inj. I was the first car he ever installed it on and I was the first car that he had ever tuned that had meth injection. After the meth injection install in my car he came on these forums and read this thread and probably a few others (just like I did) so that he would learn alot more about it. I dont expect everthing to go right on the first try but I just want to make sure it gets better and better the more time that is spent on it (why I ask so many questions). I have been writing stuff down (when im on my cell phone) and printing stuff up from this thread so that there will be stuff to look back on next time.