Ask your water alcohol injection questions here.

[dsm-onster]

I hope we can help. . .

What was your peak %IDC? And what size injectors do you have?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I hope we can help. . .

What was your peak %IDC? And what size injectors do you have?

You and this thread have been a ton of help. When we were on the dyno and couldnt get the car tuned with the meth I got back on the forum and read somthing you posted that day about the pump having a slight delay...after realizeing that he set up the progressive controller and actually started getting somewhere. I dont remember the exact %IDC but we did do the math on it while we were there and it was high. I would guess around 90% or slightly above. Oh and the injectors are 750cc.

EDIT: I am actually going to the 1/8th mile track in 1 1/2 hrs so I will hook up evoscan and see what it says about my %IDC. If it even reads that for my car???

 

[dsm-onster]

Yep I use the pump delay filling up the lines and coming to full pressure as a way not to injecto so much at once and bog the motor since I run water in the mix.

You're running about 3:1 gas to meth based on 90%IDC of 750s. Stoich for you is 12.78:1 a/f ratio that is where your lambda = 1. 0.85lambda (what your wideband is showing you) X 12.78:1 = 11:1. I think that is a little too lean for a high percentage meth mix. Most guys get best results with a gasoline calibrated wideband in the 11-11.5:1 range with a high percentage meth mix. Now, 11.25 / 14.7 (gas calibrated stoich) = .765lambda . 0.765 X 12.78:1 = 9.78:1 actual a/f ratio. You need to richen things up a bit. There's nto enough gas in there to take up enough oxygen to keep the meth happy. . . That's my guess. I could be very wrong. But it's worth looking into.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Yep I use the pump delay filling up the lines and coming to full pressure as a way not to injecto so much at once and bog the motor since I run water in the mix.

You're running about 3:1 gas to meth based on 90%IDC of 750s. Stoich for you is 12.78:1 a/f ratio that is where your lambda = 1. 0.85lambda (what your wideband is showing you) X 12.78:1 = 11:1. I think that is a little too lean for a high percentage meth mix. Most guys get best results with a gasoline calibrated wideband in the 11-11.5:1 range with a high percentage meth mix. Now, 11.25 / 14.7 (gas calibrated stoich) = .765lambda . 0.765 X 12.78:1 = 9.78:1 actual a/f ratio. You need to richen things up a bit. There's nto enough gas in there to take up enough oxygen to keep the meth happy. . . That's my guess. I could be very wrong. But it's worth looking into.

Ok thanks I printed this up and will let him look at it at the track. Also I wanted to say that we never adjusted the 150 sureflow pump PSI at all. It is still at the pressure it was at when I recieved it. I dont know if that would be a problem or not. Anyways im off to the track. I will check back with this thread when I get home.

 

[dsm-onster]

I think those pumps come set to about 80-100psi. Fromw what I remember. Minus your 30psi boost. The net nozzle pressure is going to be 70psi. Which puts you at only 84% of where you wanted to be. So 2 m10s are flowing like an m10 and an m7. I'd play with your pressure.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I think those pumps come set to about 80-100psi. Fromw what I remember. Minus your 30psi boost. The net nozzle pressure is going to be 70psi. Which puts you at only 84% of where you wanted to be. So 2 m10s are flowing like an m10 and an m7. I'd play with your pressure.

So basically my pump should be set at 130psi. Would it be wize for me to change it now? I would think that I should wait till im on the dyno so that it could be tuned for the extrs flow? My mechanics truck broke at the track last night so we didnt get into it. I will just point him to this thread.

 

[dsm-onster]

You won't gain anything until you retune. So I'd wait.

 

[Devilsown]

No our older pumps, smallest we ever sold where good for 150psi, The new pumps we are selling now are good for 250psi. 250 Psi water injection pump

 

[19BLACKGST98]

No our older pumps, smallest we ever sold where good for 150psi, The new pumps we are selling now are good for 250psi. 250 Psi water injection pump

Yea I only have the 150 pai pump. Do you know for sure what your pumps psi is set to when it is shipped out?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

2.3 stroker GT3582R hta, if I wanted to run 30psi and a 75/25 meth/water mix, what kind of nozzle setup should I run? And what pump should I use?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Ok I was talking to one of the Local Evo guru's around my area and I sent him the calculations because he said he thought that I was running to much nozzle (first statment below is him telling me this) for my meth injection. Here is what I wrote him and how he replyed:

***Andrew this should help you also because Kevin runs a 35R also*** I will mark it with a diffrent color below for you to find.

HIM: "anyway, two m10 nozzles seems like a lot. if you want to adjust the amount your injecting, definately do NOT turn the line pressure down. you need the pressure to atomize the meth. lower pressure increases atomization size, and decreases heat transfer between the air and liquid. as an example, i'm running two 1mm nozzles (aquamist uses different nozzles). they are good for around 1000cc/min of 100% methanol. that is about 15 gal/hr. and thats assuming 100% duty cycle, i run about 85% duty, so only about 13 gal/hr on a 35R turbo"

ME: Thanks for the reply.

Here is how it was all broken down to me (this is using my numbers also...after where I quoted you I will leave the post that a guy left for me where I got this info):
I have 750cc injectors and on 93 oct alone they are at around 90% IDC.
90% of 750cc is 675cc
675cc X 4 = 2700
20% of 2700cc = 540cc

Weight Diffrence Calculations:
540cc X 75% = 405cc
405cc X 60 = 24,300
24,300 / 3785 cc/gal = 6.42077 gal/hr
So if I wanted to run pure water the max nozzle size I should use would be a 6.42077 (which I know doesnt exist)

Since I am running a 70/30 Meth/water mix I will only be running 30% water so: 6.4 gal/hr Divided by .3 = 21.3333333 Gal/hr So that would be the most I would want to spray.

You use 20% of your total cc that you actually use (in my case 2700cc) for the max nozzle calculation and you use 15% of your total cc that you actually use for your Min nozzle calculation.

Max size for my set up is: 21.333333 gal/hr
Min size for my set up is: 16.066666


Does that not sound right to you?


HIS REPLY: "those numbers are not correct.

its all good right up to the weight difference calculation. i'm not sure what that is, and there are no units, so the 75% multiplier is for what? water density vs meth? or water vs gasoline? when using water, the water doesn't burn in the process, so knowing the density of the water is irrelevent. what you could run numbers for is how much energy the water can remove from the system, giving you approximate temperatures of the air going into the motor (or essentially the energy in the cylinder before the compression cycle). this is quite simple to do too, basically find the latent heat of vaporization for water, and you already know how much water you want to run (20% of gasoline was 540cc/min). you should be able to come up with a BTU/min (or Calories/min, or Joules/min). what do you do with that number? i'll tell you

now you can take the approximate displacement of your engine (or reverse out of how much fuel you are running, and your AFR, to calculate how much air/min you are running. you can then use the energy capacity of air to calculate the temperature drop of the air due to the water. then make a spreadsheet using different water ratios.

next, when you take the 70/30 meth/water ratio, running 6gal of water, doesn't mean that is the 20% of the total mixture you want, and then add 15 gal of methanol on top of that. that would mean that 1324cc/min is your water/meth mixture, or about (1324/(2700+1324)) = 33% of all the liquid going into the motor.

i would seperate out the two, water and meth. and run the meth calcuations by themselves. its more important because the meth burns, and reduce the amount of gasoline you need. then get a basic idea of how much temperature drop you want in the air that the meth+intercooler don't already cover.

and remember all these calcuations are entirely abitrary. you can pick any number for water/meth ratio you want, and it is entirely a guess. there is no right or wrong answer as to what ratio to use. "

 

[romeen]

Like I mentioned on the previous page that really does seem like a lot of injection. Pretty much all of the WI kit brands have a nozzle size calculator on their respective websites. Using any one of them you are still running more nozzle than recommended. However, the recommended nozzle size is typically in the context of using a 50/50 mix.

Like previously mentioned, it makes more sense to start out with smaller nozzles and gradually increase in size until you find the smallest injection volume that will meet your goals.

No our older pumps, smallest we ever sold where good for 150psi, The new pumps we are selling now are good for 250psi. 250 Psi water injection pump

Yea I only have the 150 pai pump. Do you know for sure what your pumps psi is set to when it is shipped out?

Chance, I understand that the old pumps were 150psi capable but I too would like to know what they were actually set at when shipped out? Thanks.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Like I mentioned on the previous page that really does seem like a lot of injection. Pretty much all of the WI kit brands have a nozzle size calculator on their respective websites. Using any one of them you are still running more nozzle than recommended. However, the recommended nozzle size is typically in the context of using a 50/50 mix.

Like previously mentioned, it makes more sense to start out with smaller nozzles and gradually increase in size until you find the smallest injection volume that will meet your goals.

Easier said than done when you tune via eprom chips. Dyno time isnt very cheap either.

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok I was talking to one of the Local Evo guru's around my area and I sent him the calculations because he said he thought that I was running to much nozzle (first statment below is him telling me this) for my meth injection. Here is what I wrote him and how he replyed:

***Andrew this should help you also because Kevin runs a 35R also*** I will mark it with a diffrent color below for you to find.

HIM: "anyway, two m10 nozzles seems like a lot. if you want to adjust the amount your injecting, definately do NOT turn the line pressure down. you need the pressure to atomize the meth. lower pressure increases atomization size, and decreases heat transfer between the air and liquid. as an example, i'm running two 1mm nozzles (aquamist uses different nozzles). they are good for around 1000cc/min of 100% methanol. that is about 15 gal/hr. and thats assuming 100% duty cycle, i run about 85% duty, so only about 13 gal/hr on a 35R turbo"

ME: Thanks for the reply.

Here is how it was all broken down to me (this is using my numbers also...after where I quoted you I will leave the post that a guy left for me where I got this info):
I have 750cc injectors and on 93 oct alone they are at around 90% IDC.
90% of 750cc is 675cc
675cc X 4 = 2700
20% of 2700cc = 540cc

Weight Diffrence Calculations:
540cc X 75% = 405cc
405cc X 60 = 24,300
24,300 / 3785 cc/gal = 6.42077 gal/hr
So if I wanted to run pure water the max nozzle size I should use would be a 6.42077 (which I know doesnt exist)

Since I am running a 70/30 Meth/water mix I will only be running 30% water so: 6.4 gal/hr Divided by .3 = 21.3333333 Gal/hr So that would be the most I would want to spray.

You use 20% of your total cc that you actually use (in my case 2700cc) for the max nozzle calculation and you use 15% of your total cc that you actually use for your Min nozzle calculation.

Max size for my set up is: 21.333333 gal/hr
Min size for my set up is: 16.066666


Does that not sound right to you?


HIS REPLY: "those numbers are not correct.

its all good right up to the weight difference calculation. i'm not sure what that is, and there are no units, so the 75% multiplier is for what? water density vs meth? or water vs gasoline? when using water, the water doesn't burn in the process, so knowing the density of the water is irrelevent. what you could run numbers for is how much energy the water can remove from the system, giving you approximate temperatures of the air going into the motor (or essentially the energy in the cylinder before the compression cycle). this is quite simple to do too, basically find the latent heat of vaporization for water, and you already know how much water you want to run (20% of gasoline was 540cc/min). you should be able to come up with a BTU/min (or Calories/min, or Joules/min). what do you do with that number? i'll tell you

now you can take the approximate displacement of your engine (or reverse out of how much fuel you are running, and your AFR, to calculate how much air/min you are running. you can then use the energy capacity of air to calculate the temperature drop of the air due to the water. then make a spreadsheet using different water ratios.

next, when you take the 70/30 meth/water ratio, running 6gal of water, doesn't mean that is the 20% of the total mixture you want, and then add 15 gal of methanol on top of that. that would mean that 1324cc/min is your water/meth mixture, or about (1324/(2700+1324)) = 33% of all the liquid going into the motor.

i would seperate out the two, water and meth. and run the meth calcuations by themselves. its more important because the meth burns, and reduce the amount of gasoline you need. then get a basic idea of how much temperature drop you want in the air that the meth+intercooler don't already cover.

and remember all these calcuations are entirely abitrary. you can pick any number for water/meth ratio you want, and it is entirely a guess. there is no right or wrong answer as to what ratio to use. "

I understand what he is saying. It is simple. Gas=>6.25lb/gal. Water=>8.33lb/gal. 6.25/8.33 = 0.75. Many, many water injection sources relate that you need to pick a nozzle size between 15-20% of the fuel flow at peak, and that the ratio should be based on weight not volume. Many, many sources also conclude that you need about 3-4 times more methanol than water.

You can't simply look at how much the water drops the air temp in the laboratory (latent heat), because you have to factor in the time it takes to drop the air temp. This will be affected by velocity of aircharge and droplet size. It gets very hairy. I just calculate based on what has worked best for the masses: 15-20% of the fuel flow by weight. And based on the tempurature logs in the aquamist forum, tend to think thatthe water is doing it's job in the combustion chamber not the aircharge. You should really study the threads in that forum. It's awealth of GREAT information by many, many different users with boosted platforms.


21.333gal/hr = 1346cc/min. 30% of that is water. 0.30 X 1346cc = about 405cc. The rule of thumb is still maintained. [405cc waterflow / (6.25lbpergal gasoline / 8.33lbpergal water)] / 2700cc fuel flow = [405 / .75] / 2700 = 0.2 . . . Again, the 15-20% of the total fuel flow by weight is a rule of thumb that is all over the place. It is a general trend seen that works best. Definately not the right or wrong way. But I'd rather start close to what works best for most.

Note this webpage from RB racing, who've been racing and building turbo bikes for years using water/alky injection. They back up the 15-20% ratio by weight consensus. Interestingly they also say don't inject more than 50% ratio of meth to water as it is prone to knock. . . Which makes sense now. I just looked up the MSDS of SLX denatured alcohol that I use. It is a 50/50 mix methanol/ethanol. I mix 1gal 40% meth wiper fluid with 1 gal of this slx denatured alcohol (50/50 methanol/ethanol). This makes 2 galons of 70/30 alky/water. So I've been really running about 50/50 meth to water this whole time. The 70% amount that is alcohol in my 70/30 mix is about 1/3 ethanol. . . I did not know that.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I understand what he is saying. It is simple. Gas=>6.25lb/gal. Water=>8.33lb/gal. 6.25/8.33 = 0.75. Many, many water injection sources relate that you need to pick a nozzle size between 15-20% of the fuel flow at peak, and that the ratio should be based on weight not volume. Many, many sources also conclude that you need about 3-4 times more methanol than water.

You can't simply look at how much the water drops the air temp in the laboratory (latent heat), because you have to factor in the time it takes to drop the air temp. This will be affected by velocity of aircharge and droplet size. It gets very hairy. I just calculate based on what has worked best for the masses: 15-20% of the fuel flow by weight. And based on the tempurature logs in the aquamist forum, tend to think thatthe water is doing it's job in the combustion chamber not the aircharge. You should really study the threads in that forum. It's awealth of GREAT information by many, many different users with boosted platforms.


21.333gal/hr = 1346cc/min. 30% of that is water. 0.30 X 1346cc = about 405cc. The rule of thumb is still maintained. [405cc waterflow / (6.25lbpergal gasoline / 8.33lbpergal water)] / 2700cc fuel flow = [405 / .75] / 2700 = 0.2 . . . Again, the 15-20% of the total fuel flow by weight is a rule of thumb that is all over the place. It is a general trend seen that works best. Definately not the right or wrong way. But I'd rather start close to what works best for most.

Note this webpage from RB racing, who've been racing and building turbo bikes for years using water/alky injection. They back up the 15-20% ratio by weight consensus. Interestingly they also say don't inject more than 50% ratio of meth to water as it is prone to knock. . . Which makes sense now. I just looked up the MSDS of SLX denatured alcohol that I use. It is a 50/50 mix methanol/ethanol. I mix 1gal 40% meth wiper fluid with 1 gal of this slx denatured alcohol (50/50 methanol/ethanol). This makes 2 galons of 70/30 alky/water. So I've been really running about 50/50 meth to water this whole time. The 70% amount that is alcohol in my 70/30 mix is about 1/3 ethanol. . . I did not know that.

So does that mean I need to switch my mix to 50/50 for best results or continue with the 70/30? If I go 50/50 I will have way to much nozzle.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well, they've been doing it longer than me. I've been doing fine with my 70/30 mix with that much nozzle. But probably because 1/3 of my alky is ethanol. Which I didn't know. I'd definately try the 50/50 mix and change nozzle sizes to compensate.

 

[turboglenn]

dsm-onster, the above link to rbracing was a very good read, thanks for posting!

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Well, they've been doing it longer than me. I've been doing fine with my 70/30 mix with that much nozzle. But probably because 1/3 of my alky is ethanol. Which I didn't know. I'd definately try the 50/50 mix and change nozzle sizes to compensate.

Ok. Same math = 6.4 gph for pure water. 6.4 gph/.5 (for the 50/50 mix correct) = 12.8

I have the dual nozzle allready installed so I wont be going back to one big nozzle. I currently have a M5, M7, M10 and M10. So unless I want to order another nozzle I will have to either go a little lower (m5 + m7 = 12 gal/hr...but upping the pressure higher would flow more) or go Higher (m10 + M5 = 15 gal/hr...I will not be lowering pressure to lower amount though).

I guess I could just go M5 and M7 and run the pump at 150psi. Should give me a little more flow and allow me to run the boost I want to run. What nozzles would I need to run the 70/30 I already have mixed?(m15 or m17...those are the other combos I have left .

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Glen was right that was a good read. At the end of it all it has that calculator. I messed with it but I dont think it is accurate with cars. Basically I put in that I would have 500hp, one 378.5ccs nozzle (M6), 100% pump pressure (cant really use their bike calculations for cars or else you would end up with a negative number), and a 30/70 mix (water/meth)

So it said that I need a M6 nozzle to run 30 psi with a 70/30 mix...that would put me within the 15%-25% range. (16.67707% Coolant to Fuel Ratio (Based on mass not volume). Should be in the 12.5% to 25% range)
and
10.713330347585982:1 Air to Liquid Mass Ratio. (Based on mass not volume. Calculated at Air/Fuel Ratio 12.5:1)

 

[ApexVIII]

does anyone here run 100% methanol injection?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

does anyone here run 100% methanol injection?

Most of the Evo guys around here seem to like 100% meth. Since Evo guys are the only guys around my area that run meth injection I guess I will give it a try since I am still unsure what size nozzles I should be running. The main evo tuner in this area uses a 15gph nozzle one Evo's equiped with a 35R turbo and that is on 100% meth to run 30PSI. I know I have a DO7 and DO5 nozzle so I will just throw them in and max my pump pressure out at 150PSI which should give me around 15gph of flow. (probably between 15 and 16 gph actually) My turbo is getting upgraded to flow 70 Lbs/min which is the same as the 35R that is why im choosing to try this out.(should get it back thursday)

Does anyone know what the smallest amount of water that can be used where you would still see the full benifit of using the water? The lowest % of water I can remember reading about in a mix that someone has used was 20%.

EDIT: The evo guy I talked to say that he has tuned meth injection with every mix ratio possible and that 100% meth allways gives the most power. He just said it will wear down your parts of the kit faster so you need to keep the maintanance up.

 

[ApexVIII]

Most of the Evo guys around here seem to like 100% meth. Since Evo guys are the only guys around my area that run meth injection I guess I will give it a try since I am still unsure what size nozzles I should be running. The main evo tuner in this area uses a 15gph nozzle one Evo's equiped with a 35R turbo and that is on 100% meth to run 30PSI. I know I have a DO7 and DO5 nozzle so I will just throw them in and max my pump pressure out at 150PSI which should give me around 15gph of flow. (probably between 15 and 16 gph actually) My turbo is getting upgraded to flow 70 Lbs/min which is the same as the 35R that is why im choosing to try this out.(should get it back thursday)

Does anyone know what the smallest amount of water that can be used where you would still see the full benifit of using the water? The lowest % of water I can remember reading about in a mix that someone has used was 20%.

EDIT: The evo guy I talked to say that he has tuned meth injection with every mix ratio possible and that 100% meth allways gives the most power. He just said it will wear down your parts of the kit faster so you need to keep the maintanance up.

what part in the kit? the pump and Solenoid?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

what part in the kit? the pump and Solenoid?

Here: (first rocket scientist ive ever talked to)
"methanol - methanol doesn't have as much latent head of vaporization as water, but it is still very high. in fact its less then half of water if i remember correctly (that means it vaporizes somewhat easily). however, methanol, unlike water, burns. so when you add methanol, methanol has a much higher octane rating then gasoline, and infinately more then water. so adding methanol to the mixture actually does increase your octane rating. and it also acts to cool the air like an intercooler. if you run straight 100% methanol, you'll be able to run more boost yet (more then 100% water), and run similair timing numbers as with water. you will certainly reach the most power added by running 100% methanol vs any other mixture. however the methanol is pretty corrosive, and more importantly every kit i've used seems to kill seals, and components when running 100% methanol. so running a mixture of water with methanol seems to keep the components lasting longer. i run 100% methanol and have been for a year and a half with my aquamist kit. i'm on my second pump though. and i've installed dozens of aquamist kits on evos and run every blend of water/meth you can think of. all the 100% methanol cars go through components pretty quickly, but they always make more power as well. if you run the 100% methanol you will have to lean out your fuel mixture significantly because the methanol will burn up some of the air coming into the engine leaving you with a rich mixture. so make sure to lean it out when running meth. you can see great power (depending on how much methanol you run) by running lean, 12-12.5:1 AFR. again, it depends on how much methanol you run as a % of the gasoline your running. there as some simple calcuations depending on your injector size, and duty cycles you see to calculate how much methanol you should run."

 

[v8killer]

can i use a kenne bell boost a pump on my water/meth/acohol pump to make it variable ? all it does is increase the voltage to 17.5 volts max and can be triggered with a boost switch !

 

[Devilsown]

We didn't adjust the pumps when we send them out. They will vary. You will need to hook up a pressure gauge and adjust the hex key if your wanting a specific psi output.

No, you can't use it because on the low end its not going to send enough voltage to power the pump. Thats the reason us and the rest of the alcohol injection companys use pwm to run the pumps. So the pump always has full voltage we just pulse it to slow down.

100% will sometimes make more power but there is also other things that need to be taken into consideration. these kits are designed for a 50/50 mix. Higher amounts will not hurt our kits nor should it cause them to wear quicker. the deal is the pumps we use along with all the other alcohol injection company's is the pumps are not explosion proof. It is possible for internal sparks and the flash point of straight meth is high enough that there can be issues. Now that being said many people do go against our recommendations and run straight methanol. Which is fine but we are not responsibility.

See the reason most make more power with the straight meth is too many people have that if a little is good more is better. So they tend to pop larger nozzles in than they should and end up with to much water getting in the cylinders, So instead of putting in the right size nozzle they change the % of meth and run more and the car starts to run better. then they look at there 02s and they are rich so they pull more fuel. then they decide to try and even larger nozzle. because its got to make more power, and its a cycle. Which for many does make more power. the deal is these systems are not like fuel injectors and precise measure the fuel as its injected.