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Ask your water alcohol injection questions here.

Posted by Devilsown, Mar 23, 2007

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  1. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    My name is chance and i am the owner of DevilsOwn Injection. I have noticed that I sell a pretty good amount of kits to dsm but water alcohol injection is hardly talked about on this forum. Its covered pretty well in depth on other forums. Most infact have a section dedicated to it. I thought i would sign up as a vendor on here and see if anyone has any questions about Alcohol-Water Injection and its use in Dsm.
     
  2. romeen

    romeen DSM Wiseman

    2,434
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    Joined Jul 12, 2006
    Vancouver, Washington
    Hello. Some while ago I was reading up on meth/H2O injection. If I remember correctly your setup relies only on a check valve (no solenoid) to regulate directional flow to the nozzle. Can you briefly explain the pros and cons of this method vs the more traditional configuration that does use a solenoid.

    I apologize if I am confusing your kit with another.:)
     
  3. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    We do use a check valve. The traditional method is a check valve. 3 of the 4 largest alcohol company's only use check valves and other 1 uses the check valve in their lower systems and then uses there high speed valve in there higher end systems.

    Some of the smaller company's use a solenoid because they are shelf items and don't incur any protype, modifications etc to get them to work properly. These can also be ordered in reasonable quantity. The plus side to them is they provide a positive on/off for the system. The draw back is for a good one they are very expensive. Since they are electrical they also do have a higher risk of failure compared to a check valve.


    Check valves have to have a min of 1 bar or 15psi of cracking pressure. The common check valves in pneumatics world have a 1/2 psi or 1 psi. So these must be either modified or custom designed. Any time you talk about something custom large quanitys also have to come into play. We personal had to buy 5,000 in 1 sitting. Not an easy task for a small company, so they all push solenoids that can be bought 10 at a time. We do have solenoids in stock but we highly recommend the use of a check valve.

    We found that the most common problem with check valves of others is they would get debri in them. So we went the route of having a 2 piece design made up. So it can be take apart and cleaned if need. You can read hear about other source of debri http://www.alcohol-injection.com/fo...ss-alcohol-injection-system-bad-risk-670.html
    We are the only company that features a check valve that can be taken apart. Others if its gets debri and does not wash out you have to chunk it. Our check valves are rated for million cycles, something solenoids are not going to do. Now the cons to a check valve is they are not a positive on/off for the system so when the system turns off the pressure in the system will bleed out. This can take up to a second.

    You can read up on our check valve here. http://www.alcohol-injection.com/brass-check-valve-p-64.htm
     
  4. romeen

    romeen DSM Wiseman

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    Joined Jul 12, 2006
    Vancouver, Washington
    I would like to run straight methanol out of the stock windshield washer tank. Will the meth be corrosive to the various plastic and rubber pieces. If yes do you happen to know how much dilution with water it would take to combat this.
     
  5. romeen

    romeen DSM Wiseman

    2,434
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    Joined Jul 12, 2006
    Vancouver, Washington
    I am also curious if there is any way to get an idea of how much meth injection will allow you to increase boost for a certain setup. I know there is a formula for determining what size injector nozzles you need for a particular setup. I understand that there are many variables which determine how much boost you can run and every car is different so I wouldn't expect any concrete values but possibly a predicted range.

    For example if my turbo is capable of flowing 36lbs/min and I have 550cc injectors is there any way to use the octane value of the methanol combined with injector nozzle size to predict a range of how much boost I might be able to run.

    I appreciate the responses.:thumb:
     
  6. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Here is a quick run down on what is and is not.
    You should not have anything to be concerned about.

    Plastics in the car and in the system:
    Methanol in general is harder on alloys than it is on plastics. Most plastics in a car are a nylon 11 /12 or Polyethylene and are A-Excellent with Methyl Alcohol And generaly most all makers use poly or nylon for the transfer hose for this kits. .

    Rubbers in the car and in the system:
    Only source of rubber in the car these systems should come in contact with is your hard pipe couplers and they are made from Silicone and its considered A-Excellent with Methyl Alcohol. Now some manufactures sell alcohol injection pumps with viton seals that are C-Fair . :( So make sure the pumps have EPDM seals. If they don't say then its probley viton, which you don't want.

    Alloys in the car and in the system:

    Aluminum for example is considered meth compatible by some and not by others. When it boils down to it its the grade of aluminum that causes this. Most aluminum go kart tanks that are not anodized will not fair well with constant contact with methanol. Aluminum intakes for example, since they are not under constant contact and they are a lot more substantial would be considered compatible. All of your Stainless Steels are grade A
    Brass, while considered compatible with both water and meth we have found for it to create a coating on the inside of these systems, This is the main reason we use Nickle plating on all the fittings.
     
  7. ILLiCliPSE

    ILLiCliPSE Proven Member

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    Joined Jan 11, 2003
    Boynton Beach, Florida
    meth will not do anything to your wiper fluid tank. if you look at some wiper fluids, they contain methanol.
     

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
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  8. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma


    I honesty am not aware of any such formula. So much has to do with your current tune, and condition of your motor. Most people on turboed cars are able to run there race gas tune with meth and street gas. It all has to do with how far you want to take a tune.
     
  9. Rice Over Wheat

    Rice Over Wheat Proven Member

    1,248
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    Joined Jan 24, 2004
    Winter Park, Florida
    Taking off my fmic one day revealed that meth was indeed corrosive to aluminum. The effect looked similar to light brownish rust. However, it was so slight that it would no doubt takes a looooong time for this to affect the equipment's performance. I believe the talk of meth corrosiveness is overblown.

    Also, my checkvalve is also capable of being taken apart and cleaned. I have a coolingmist kit so more than one company supplies those types of checkvalves.
     
  10. scottsee

    scottsee Proven Member

    976
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    Joined Mar 25, 2004
    casa grande, Arizona
    Chance, I've never used your kits but I have used Daves at Coolingmist and orederd some hardware Enginerunup. A friend of mine runs your progressive controller in his turbo Delsol, It's a good product.. It's nice to have a injection expert around. I hope you make it a regular stop durring your bussy day! Welcome..
     

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    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    12.422 @ 111.130 · 2G DSM
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  11. 2gAWDTalon

    2gAWDTalon Proven Member

    642
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    Joined Jun 25, 2006
    Warner Robins, Georgia
    Chance, nice to see you here! I dont know if you remember me, but I am the one that told you Tuners has more activity then talk...
    FYI for anyone... I bought a Devils own kit and got super fast shipping and it is a nice product.
    One thing I would like to see in your kit is a option to upgrade to a steal braided line, or maybe a push lock line.
     

    399  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.091 @ 129.000 · 2G DSM
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  12. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Thanks for the warm welcome.

    I been wanting to offer ss line for people wanting that look. We have a lot of new parts that we are fixing to release :) Nothing earth shattering. Just improving parts and easing installation. Will make a post latter when we have them in quantity for sale.

    But if anyone has alcohol injection questions let me know.
     
  13. Caithness

    Caithness Proven Member

    323
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    Joined Nov 2, 2003
    Tampa, Florida
    On your site it says Shurflo recommends running only a 50/50 mix of methanol/water through that pump. How reliable is your kit running 100 percent meth?

    I have seen people using normal 2 gallon gas cans as methanol tanks. Is doing this going to cause any problems? How exactly does the pump pickup connect to a tank?

    The price on your basic kit is very attractive. I was going to put together my own kit in the near future but I can't do it for much cheaper than your total package. Don't be surprised if you see some business from me in the next 2-3 months.
     
  14. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

    153
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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Our pumps seals are chemical compatible with 100% meth. Most out there are not. So meth is not going to cause any problem for any of the parts in the system.

    Due to risk of fire and the fact people are sue happy we recommend a 50/50mix.

    No, most people just use a 1/8npt fitting and tap there tank and thread this in.

    Well buy in such bulk and get breaks on pricing that you would be hard pressed to piece a kit together and save anything once you include the shipping from 2-3 different places. Than what our pricing is.
     
  15. jking29

    jking29 Proven Member

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    Joined Jun 7, 2005
    Houston, Texas
    I have a few questions for you if you don't mind. I have a small 16g, 550's and a Apex'i front mount intercooler. I recently got a great deal on a Shurflo 100 psi pump and am putting together my own system. I am looking for recommendations for a nozzle size. I intend to run windshield washer fluid in the system and can get 93 octane locally. Also, I am going to run a 75 shot of nitrous this summer and was wondering how the water injection will work with the nitrous? Will there be a problem with the atomization of the fuel, injected along with the nitrous, becoming unsuspended when mixed with spray from the water injection? The nozzle for the nitrous is mounted in the upper intercooler pipe about 6 inches past the blow off valve, and I am going to mount the water nozzle to point straight at the throttle body plate. Any recommendations or information you have would be greatly appreciated!
     

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    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    automatic · 1G DSM
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  16. Rice Over Wheat

    Rice Over Wheat Proven Member

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    Joined Jan 24, 2004
    Winter Park, Florida
    I've got a question for you regarding meth/water mix ratios and nozzle size.

    What I've found so far in my setup, dual M3, is that the more water you run in your mix the more constraint you have for injector size. What I mean is, 2 x M3 is rated for about 4 gal/hr flowrate...equal to a single M6. Water takes space that air/fuel could otherwise occupy, therefore if you run too much water you actually negatively impact your displacement. The engine will bog if it sees too much water...so the more water you run in your mix the more limited you are on injector size.

    But if you plan on running mostly or 100% meth, you're basically adding a combustible fuel to raise your octane while giving up the cooling properties of water. With that mix your safe to go big on injector size and that's when you see people running an M15 injector or even multiples.

    Back to my setup, I switched from 50/50 to 90% meth on dual M3s and have been getting a lot more knock than before. I'm basically thinking that if I want to run 100% meth for knock suppression I need to go to much bigger injectors because without water my intake temps are just too hot...say dual M8s for my mods. Otherwise with dual M3s I need to keep a larger water mix in order to provide enough cooling to suppress knock. At least that's my experience.

    What is your recommendation regarding mix ratios and injector size?
     
  17. thegchild04

    thegchild04 Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 24, 2003
    Albany, New York
    does the DSM Progressive Kit come with the pig tail for the GM 3 bar Map sensor
     

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  18. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    jking29
    nitrous and methanol injection do work along with each other. When on the bottle the nitrous is going to cool your intake track more than the methanol injection. So you really are only getting the extra fuel during this time with the meth. So this is where proper nozzle sizing comes into effect so your not over fueling on the bottle. Your not going to have any issues because the pressures each system works at.

    Rice Over Wheat
    It takes considerably more methanol to get a 40deg intake drop as it does water. This is one reason nozzle sizes do have to be increased usually 1 step to accommodate this. Nozzles are rated by gph M5 would be 5gph. You right about the actually amount being off. This is because all nozzles are rated with 1/2id feed line and meth kits are designed for 1/8id. So the measurable output is not as listed on the nozzle. Thought i would add that just encase people wondered why.

    Yes, it does take up space air would other wise occupy but we are talking about a very small amount when nozzle sizing is correct. Going to big is where you get into the issues of bogging. To many people live by if a little is good more is better. And methanol injection does not agree with this. This is why proper sizing of the nozzles is critical. Taking nozzles sizes and making the electronics try to imitate a smaller nozzle is a band-aid fix used by many people.

    This is another instance to where more is not always better. The water in the mix is very important in reducing the intake temps. If your going to run this mixture then I would recommend replacing one of them m3 with a m5. I would strongly advise against running dual m8 in your app, unless you are experienced in tunning. This will be a pretty significant amount of fuel, that you will need to pull out to get your o2 where needed. So if the methanol system malfunctions you will be out of a safe range. I would need some more specifics on your car and alky kit. List me out your mods and estmated hp range. On the alky kit which pump do you have. 100 or 150psi. There is a pretty good differnce between the volume of fluid between the 2 and the 100psi will pulse quite a bit more.
     
  19. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    thegchild04
    yes, it comes with the pigtail. I know some dsm already have aftermarket map sensors 3bar or 5bars etc in there car and our kit can also be bough without the map sensor and harness for thoughs not needing it.
     
  20. RayPeters

    RayPeters Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 26, 2006
    Rogersville, Tennessee
    Chance,
    Welcome to tuners! I've got a rather unique situation on my 1G. I know the thread is long, but please have a quick look at http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253830
    My current setup has changed very little and on c-12 I have no detonation issues with my current timing curves. However on pump fuel once intake temps rise a bit I have problems. I'd like to install nozzles before the supercharger, as I can seal the rotors better and cool the SC with the meth, and it is far enough from the MAF that there should be no liquid issues. I also am planning on using the ECU to control this, looking at water temp, intake temp, airflow, knock, and tps to determine if/ how much juice to spray. If I can output a 0-5V signal for your conroller to read, will that enable me to have a variable setup?I'd like to have a 2 stage setup, with a solinoid to enable the second stage (larger nozzle) once/if I see any detonation. The engine is making 450 awHP right now which is enough, and I am really after more torque rather than top end power. Your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated as this is one area I have little experience.

    Thanks,

    Ray
     

    654  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  21. PieEyedPiper

    PieEyedPiper DSM Wiseman

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    Joined Nov 13, 2004
    North Bay Area, California
    Please do take your time with RayPeter's thread. Very cool stuff!

    But when you get the chance,
    I'm looking to get into water injection for my daily driver. Mostly stock everything except for a ported and rebuilt 14b.
    What kind of tuning am I looking at to make your kit work with the car?
    Is an SAFC required?
     

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  22. thegchild04

    thegchild04 Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 24, 2003
    Albany, New York
    I hope someone posts up results between on and off spray or before and after, even if it's the butt dyno I don't care LOL. I am pretty much sold on this Progressive Kit I needed a 3bar map anyway with my dsmlink. What size tank should I get how fast do you guys run out? You ever see the tanks with the empty light? thats cool, and what A/F's are we looking for with like a 50/50 mix?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2014

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    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM
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  23. Rice Over Wheat

    Rice Over Wheat Proven Member

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    Joined Jan 24, 2004
    Winter Park, Florida
    Thanks for the input Chance. I'm glad my logic was in the right direction. I'm going back to 50/50 mix while I still have dual M3 injectors as I just can't flow enough meth to compensate for the lack of water on mostly methanol mix.

    Mods as per profile are:

    Bullseye Power T04b 50 trim (Borg Warner core), Tial 38mm, TurboXS mbc, 4" FP intake pipe, K&N FIPK filter, HKS SSQV, 3" ss exhaust N1, Megan dp w/ no cat, Punishment recirc Tial O2 housing, Walbro 255, FIC 950cc, Aeromotive AFPR. Fully built F4A33 automatic, high stall torque converter, shift kit, RMT "manumatic", two tranny coolers. DSMlink. 28x10x3.5 FMIC. Coolingmist Dual M3 Meth Injection. Autometer boost gauge, NGK AFX wideband. Apexi TT. NGK7ES plugs & NGK wires. SPAL 1650 and 850 slimline fans, Koyo aluminum radiator.

    My meth kit is using a 150psi shurflo pump. I have both my M3 injectors in the throttle body elbow about 4 inches apart. I'll see about upgrading to slightly bigger injectors. M3's just aren't cutting it. I'm running about 23 psi on my 50 trim. I haven't pushed this turbo yet and dsmlink estimates I'm sitting at 350 whp right now.
     
  24. romeen

    romeen DSM Wiseman

    2,434
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    Joined Jul 12, 2006
    Vancouver, Washington
    Hey Kevin, other than the higher knock counts after switching from 50/50 to 90% meth, did you notice any other pros/cons of one vs the other. I am going to be getting an injection kit (most likely the Devilsown kit) and I had been planning on running a high meth solution but now I am having some second thoughts. The Buick GN guys seem to like straight alky but I am starting to get the impression from this and other threads that for some reason DSM's might respond better to the 50/50.

    Could you feel the slight bog when the injection kicked in with the 50/50? How about with the 90? I also read somewhere about backfires or brief exhaust flames in between shifts. Did you ever experience that?

    Any input is appreciated.
     
  25. Rice Over Wheat

    Rice Over Wheat Proven Member

    1,248
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    Joined Jan 24, 2004
    Winter Park, Florida
    I only bogged when I had a lot of water in the intake...forgot to disconnect my pump's boost solenoid before boost leak testing. Left a huge cloud of white behind me and bogged like hell until it all incinerated. Water will cause bogging because it isn't a fuel and consumes energy to convert it to gas. The more meth you run the less this is an issue, except the downside is less cooling from water. On dsmlink some guys running big power setups and 100% meth are running up to dual M15 nozzles.

    Seems to me the smaller the flowrate (mine is about 4 gal/hr total @ 150 psi) the more you want to run 50/50 to get some more cooling benefits over octane increase. I'm ordering a couple M5 nozzles for 6 gal/hr total flowrate. That should increase my flow by 50% and I'll see how that works out. This 50 trim creates a lot more heat than my T28 did. I even had to get a koyo rad and slimlines to deal with the high coolant temps caused by my fmic soaking more.
     

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