water alcohol injection???

[91-gsx]

ok what is better to inject, water or alcohol. i hear that if you put just alcohol that you can raise theboost run higher timing and such, do to the fact that you are almost running race fuel type of octane. now when you put just alcohol do you have tune the car leaner due to the fact that you are injecting alchol, which is a fuel? and i understand that with water it works a lot better in turbo applications that are not using and intercooler becuase you can drop the inlet temp a lot more. now does that mean you can run more boost but not higher timing becuase it is still not increase the threshold of knock, but it will cool your air down so that you can run higher boost with out getting hot air? in general i just want some feedback on water alcohol injection and if it requires leaning out or somehting.
thank you for the replies in advance.

 

[dsmpride]

Water injection and alcohol injection are used for the same purpose, that is to keep knock under control. However, they do they do this in two different ways.

Water does this by soaking up heat not only in the intake charge but also in the combustion chambers. Obviously, this helps with detonation b/c the last thing that you want to linger around in the combustion chambers is heat.

Alcohol, more specifically methonal, has an octane level of 140 to 160 and if added to an a/f ratio CAN actually raise octane levels. If you add only 10% pure methanol to a mixture you will see a raise of about 5 points of octane. So 91 can be raised to 96 octane! That's awsome. Also, the use of Methanol enables a power increase to be obtained by the simple act of using a higher compression ratio and in fact with 10% the ratio can be increased by 1.5. And what's sweet about us and our turbo cars is we just raise the boost to see higher effective compression ratios.

I use a 50/50 mix of water and alcohol in my injection so I can take advantage of both worlds. Hopefully, keeping knock under control by keeping the intake charge and combustion chambers cool and by actually raising the octane level of the fuel entering the engine. Anyway, I hope this answered some of your questions.

 

[91-gsx]

thanks, that helps a lot but how do you tune for the injection did you lean it out becuase you could run higher timing and a leaner mixture, or were you running rich and had to lean it out becuase of the injection, or did you not have to retune it, but just raised the boost? im just wondering if you have to lean it out becuase it is more fuel? or does it not count as fuel? and can you run higher timing and a leaner mixture with alcohol injection/water, along with raising the boost? maybe im over thinking the amount of tuning, maybe you just install and run higher boost?
thanks for the help so far

 

[99gst_racer]

maybe you just install and run higher boost?

That's actually what alot of guys are doing. You can turn up the boost and stop knock at the same time. It's a win win situation.

 

[dsmpride]

Yeah, I didn't retune or anything. I just basked in the warm glowing glowing warmth of less/no knock an more timing advance. But I blew the motor anyway.

Anyway, yes if you have a good motor that can handle, you can lean it out the lazy way and up the pressure, or you can do it the safer way and lean it out with what ever you are tuning it with. Because with or without the water/alcy injection, high boost + a lot of timing advance = Very Powerful and higher boost + less timing advance = not as powerful.

 

[99gst_racer]

dsmpride - Just curious, but What turbo are you running and how much boost? And how much timing advance did you gain after the addition of the meth/h2o injection?

 

[91-gsx]

that was the answer i hoping for, more boost and more timing advance, without having to lean it out too much. definately on my list, i have read if you run full denatured alcohol, without water basically, it is almost like running 120 octane gas. i believe it was turbo magazine buschar racing or another company that came out with a water/alcohol injection kit for the evo's, and the guy had some sort of fp turbo or something, sorry can't remember now, but it was bigger then stock. and the guy ran the alcohol injection kit with denatured alcohol that they said you can get at your local hardware store. anyway they made 443 whp and the that was at 25psi i beleive, but the guy who put the injection kit on said that they could have only made about 390whp if it was not for the alky kit. so it sounds like it is proven and that it is cheap and instead of going to the track and running c16 you can just go there with a gallon or two of your alcohol. now i wonder what would happen if you ran a alky kit and c16??? .
thanks for the feedback, makes a great mod to have on the 14b, especially if you are trying to run more boost but the air that it is pushing is way to hot for 91 octane. you can really max that turbo now.

 

[91-gsx]

another quick question, do you have the injector in the piping in the intake? before the mass, or after? sense i run the maft setup i was just wondering, but i would think after the mass becuase it cannot monitor liquid.
thanks for your help so far it looks like more people are getting interested in running it.

 

[project_tsi]

A friend of mine runs a 60-1, DSMLink, Built 6 bolt, etc, etc. W/ water/alcky injection and runs 34 psi w/ under 1.0 degree of knock on link. W/ out it all he could manage was about 28 psi w/ out knocking too much or pulling too much timing. He is pulling around 20 degrees timing at the top of shifts.

So definitely its worth it according to everyone that I have talked too about it. From what I hear, on a small tank, you can get about 25 1/4 mi pulls at the track before you have to fill the tank. A lot of guys also are running winshield washer solvent and they say that works fairly well when the alcky isn't available and its only $1 a gallon. I'm definitely going to invest in it sometime soon. I sure hope it works out for Paul's car so Ill want it more!

 

[project_tsi]

another quick question, do you have the injector in the piping in the intake? before the mass, or after? sense i run the maft setup i was just wondering, but i would think after the mass becuase it cannot monitor liquid.
thanks for your help so far it looks like more people are getting interested in running it.

The main nozzle goes in after the MAF. A lot of water would kill the Maf over time, and short it out, yada yada yada.... Some people run a very small nozzle just for a very fine mist of water before the Maf, and that doesn't effect it.

 

[99gst_racer]

another quick question, do you have the injector in the piping in the intake? before the mass, or after? sense i run the maft setup i was just wondering, but i would think after the mass becuase it cannot monitor liquid.
thanks for your help so far it looks like more people are getting interested in running it.

The normal recommended injector mounting location is right after the Intercooler. But if you are running a MAFT in the blow-thru set-up, then you have to mount the injector at least a few inches after the MAS. Here's a pic of my injector in my throttle body elbow; I am also running the blow-thru set-up. (PS, before you ask, that other sensor if for my air charge temp sensor)

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[99gst_racer]

A lot of water would kill the Maf over time, and short it out, yada yada yada....

Thats not the biggest concern. The biggest problem is that the GM hotwire sensor will give false readings if cold liquid is passing across the wire. And that obviously will do nothing but play games with the ECU......

 

[Turbocharged]

Just wanted to correct the octane ratings listed in some of the posts:

Toluene - 114
Xylene - 117
Methanol or Ethanol - 101
Isopropyl Alcohol and Tertiary Butyl Alcohol - 101

These are the octanes using the R+M/2 ratings. Personally, I think its better to run distilled H2O because it has the largest heat capacity (better cooling capacity allows you to lean out your fuel trims more = more timing). Adding alcohols DOES NOT increase octane. The amount of alcohol that is added through injection is negligable compared to the amount of gasoline in the cylinder. If you want an octane booster, add 30% toluene/xylene to your gas tank.

 

[12's]

Where can you get a methenol or water injection kit? Is there a thread that says more about it and how to make a kit? How do you monitor how much is going in? I am interested, but I don't know anything about it.

 

[99gst_racer]

Where can you get a methenol or water injection kit? Is there a thread that says more about it and how to make a kit? How do you monitor how much is going in? I am interested, but I don't know anything about it.

You could save alot of money by building your own. ------> click here

Or you could just buy a premade kit. I wont post any links because there are many to choose from. Do some research and find out what kit will best suit your needs.

 

[speedmethod]

Those DIY home built kits are not the way to do it. Anyone on here have experience with a snow WI controller or something similar? Entire world's difference.

Brandon

 

[99gst_racer]

Those DIY home built kits are not the way to do it.

They are the same thing that Cooling Mist and many other vendors are selling.

Anyone on here have experience with a snow WI controller or something similar? Entire world's difference.

Care to further explain?

 

[doug]

I think the main difference he's trying to point out is the controller box itself. Snow Performance (I think) and a few others, such as Devil's Own, have progressive controllers which alter the signal going to the pump so it's not just a full on/full off switch at a certain PSI.

 

[dsm-onster]

Those DIY home built kits are not the way to do it. Anyone on here have experience with a snow WI controller or something similar? Entire world's difference.

Brandon

I've bought the exact same parts for 1/3 the price of the 2 stage kit (well my controller was better because it is responds to a analog voltage source). My close friend has a supercharged ls-1 witha snow kit and he went through 2 solenoids before getting a permenant fix from McMaster-Carr.

 

[99gst_racer]

I think the main difference he's trying to point out is the controller box itself. Snow Performance (I think) and a few others, such as Devil's Own, have progressive controllers which alter the signal going to the pump so it's not just a full on/full off switch at a certain PSI.

Yes, but basically by lowering the voltage to control output, you are also lowering the pressure at which it injects. That could cause puddling due to less atomization. Unless you're spending $800 on a kit, there is always tradeoffs.

The on/off switch is fine for most people using WI. Set it to come on when you would begin to knock and that's it.....

 

[99gst_racer]

Those DIY home built kits are not the way to do it. Anyone on here have experience with a snow WI controller or something similar? Entire world's difference.

Brandon

Also, those kits with the progressive controllers are still selling you the same pump, hose, fittings, relay, etc. as the DIY kit has.

If you don't like the on/off pressure switch, then you can still build your own kit and then purchase a pregressive controller and still save over $150

 

[doug]

The on/off switch is fine for most people using WI.

I agree; I was just trying to clarify the reason for his comment.

 

[1SloColt]

Injecting methanol or acetone or ethanol does add octane. Its noted that methanol adds 5 octane points per 10% injected (take a look: Ray Hall ). So if I run 30% meth injection thats 93octane + (5points x 3) = 108 octane. Meth has a very very high latent heat of evaporation, around 225btu/lbs, where water's latent heat of evaporation is around 975BTU/lbs, so water has a greater cooling effect while the meth adds octane and cools also. You will definitely need some type of controller that progressively injects the meth instead of spraying a full stream at a given boost. This guy's kits a really nice and plus he uses some of the best nozzles on the market today, Hago nozzles. Meth/Water Injection

 

[99gst_racer]

I agree; I was just trying to clarify the reason for his comment.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess most of that was supposed to be directed towards MR. speedmethod.

 

[speedmethod]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess most of that was supposed to be directed towards MR. speedmethod.

Yes, thank you Doug. The control of the WI is exactly what I was referring to.

Brandon

btw, GSTracer, do you happen to be the guy who sells WI kits on e-bay etc?