Ask your water alcohol injection questions here.

[19BLACKGST98]

He did it on a 4g63 DSM. I think he has 3 DSM...one in the 9's one in the 10's or low 11's and one in the 11's. He must just not get the Meth injection concept. So when I get my car tuned on race gas should I run pure meth? When I get it tuned on pump is it more beneficial to run 50/50 do to the cooling of the water? (sorry I read this whole section a couple of times a few months back when I was deciding on getting meth injection but I am in class right now on my Cell so I cant catch back up right now)

 

[dsm-onster]

For pumpgas, run 50/50 or 66/33 meth/water and triple your nozzle size for what is acceptable for pure water. That's worked best FOR ME.

For race gas, just run pure meth and that same nozzle size. should be plenty of aircharge cooling. Will be like running e-85 instead of race gas.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

For pumpgas, run 50/50 or 66/33 meth/water and triple your nozzle size for what is acceptable for pure water. That's worked best FOR ME.

For race gas, just run pure meth and that same nozzle size. should be plenty of aircharge cooling. Will be like running e-85 instead of race gas.

I understood all of that except for the red part? I will never be running pure water so that part shouldnt apply to me correct? I can only get 0 Degree windsheild washer fluid in the state of TX so I will have to get methanol and mix it with the water myself so I will just use 50/50 for pump gas and pure meth for my Sonoco Maximal race fuel.

Edit: Also is there a nozzle calculator like someone stated above? I have an M7 nozzle in right now but im not sure if I will need a bigger one or not to boost between 27 - 30 PSI. I am also on a single nozzle and am not sure if I should be on a dual nozzle set up. I will check over my Mods and make sure they are correct in my profile.

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok here goes. . .

Ideally, pure water flow should be 15%-20% of your fuel flow. So if you need a m4 for pure water, then you need an m12 for meth to be effective at raising the octane. You don't need that much to see the cooling benefits.

Calculate your required waterflow by guestimating your %IDC with your injectors. But calculating the required water to match gets tricky. Water/fuel ratio should be be based on weight not volume, since water and gasoline have different densities. Water weighs 8.33lb/gal. Fuel weighs 6.25lb/gal. Calculate the 15%-20% by volume then multiply that amount by 6.25/8.33 or 75%.

If you will probably push your 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC, then you will have 800cc X 4injectors of fuel flow, or 3200cc. For the minimum, 3200cc X 15% = 480cc. As mentioned above, gasoline weighs 15% less than water. 480cc X 75% = 360cc. For the maximum, 3200cc X 20% = 640cc. 640cc X 75% = 480cc. Multiply the minimum and maximum by 60min: 21600cc/hr and 28800cc/hr. Divide those numbers by 3785cc/gal: 5.7gal/hr and 7.6gal/hr. An m7 nozzle is all you need for pure water if you plan on pushing your 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC and you have pump pressure set so that your effective nozzle pressure is 100psi after you're on full boost. If you're running 35psi then you need to have a pump that can do 135psi.

You really need to stick to that 15%-20% rule with a water/meth mix. If you run wiper fluid then you'll have at the most 40% meth by volume for -20*F fluid. Many -20*F fluid brands are only 36% meth. (total flow) X %water = (water flow); So (water flow) / %water = (total flow). If you require an m7 nozzle for pure water and you only have 60% water injected, then you need m7 / 0.6 = 11.66gal/hr total flow or an m12 to maintain the water/fuel ratio when running -20*F wiperfluid (40% meth, 60% water). You keep the water/fuel ratio proper for the best results in the combustion chamber and you get the benefit of the meth cooling the aircharge.

A side: Meth is a fuel. m12 X 40%meth = 4.8gal/hr. 4.8gal/hr X 15%water flow = 0.7gal/hr. Meth weighs 6.63lb/gal. 0.gal/hr X (6.63lb/8.33lb) or 80% = .56gal/hr. So you need .6gal/hr more waterflow to match your fuel flow that now includes methanol. But remember that if we were going to run pure water we chose an m7 nozzle with in the range of 5.7gal/hr and 7.6gal/hr. 7gal/hr (m7) was chosen as a starting point for our water/meth mix calculations. We have plenty of flow to not worry about that .5gal/hr. The total fuel entering the combustion chambers, gas and meth, is matched by more than 15% with 7gal/hr water flow (m7). So, when calculating how much waterflow you need to do your water/meth mix nozzle sizing, go a little high so that you can insure that you have enough waterflow to accomodate the meth you're injecting.

If you're running pure meth as I said the rule of thumb is you need to tripple or quadruple your nozzle size if you were to run pure water. So in the case of pushing 1000cc injectors to 80%IDC, 2 m10s would be about enough to see significant enough octane increase to merrit using it. The octane rating ( [RON+MON]/2 ) of meth is 114. 2 m10 nozzles = 20gal/hr = .33gal/min meth flow. 80%IDC of 4 1000cc injectors = 3200cc/min fuel flow. To figure the combined octane of fuels:

[ (gal fuel1 X fuel1 octane X 1gal weight fuel1) + (gal fuel2 X fuel2octane X 1gal weight fuel2) ] / [total fuel weight] = combined octane

3785cc = 1gal

[ (.85gal gas X 93octane X 6.25lb/gal) + (.33gal meth X 114 X 6.6lb/gal) ] / [ (.85gal gas X 6.25lb/gal) + (.33gal meth X 6.6lb/gal) ] = combined octane

(494.06 + 248.29 ) / 7.49lb = combined octane

99 = Combined octane at 80%IDC 1000cc injectors. The total octane will be higher at rpms points earlier; anything less than 80%IDC you will have a higher total octane.

Another side note: If you want to net 105 octane with pure meth, you need nozzles that total 65gal/hr to match the 80%IDC 1000cc injectors ! Tuning nightmare with that much fuel just cutting on at random airflows!!! You would be better off mixing in the gas tank 2 parts meth with one part gas and upping your injector size by 1/3. Then your stoich of the mix would be about the same as e-85 and your octane would be about the same. So switching to e85 would make more sense than pure meth injection for the most part if you're looking for over 103 octane. The amount of meth required to raise the octane gets higher and higher for a very little increase in total octane as you get over 100. The pure meth injection at 3-4 times the requirement for pure water will give you 99-100 octane and will give you the very effective cooling property of methanol. It takes out more heat per part than ethanol and has a MUCH smaller droplet size-- larger surface area in the mist-- than water or even ethanol. It is plenty. And octane is overrated. A cool aircharge with 100 octane is better than a hot aircharge and 105 octane any day of the week.

Pure water raises the effective octane in the combustion chamber to 110+. Though it takes out more heat than meth per part, it doesn't take as much heat out as meth in total because the droplet size due to surface tension is MUCH larger. It takes water alot more TIME to take out the heat. And with a fast moving aircharge, you will see only a small decrease in charge temps. But you can get to race gas octane much easier with water. So this is why I run a mix. I inject enough water for the effective octane in the chamber to net 110+ (15-20% waterflow to fuel flow will do this). And I up my nozzle size for however much methanol it takes to get the aircharge temp to where I want it. I've had good results with a 70/30 mix (1gal meth + 1gal wiper fluid with 40% meth in it) with the appropriate nozzle that matches my injector %IDC.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Thank you for the reply. I got a little confused while reading it but I think I under stood enough to make a proper nozzle pick. Ive been reading the message board on the devils own site and now after re-reading your other posts in here it all makes sense. Thanks
I did the nozzle calculator on the Devils Own site and it said I would need to flow 7.5 gph if I wanted to run 30psi. How can they know that without asking what mix of water/meth I will be running...or is that number based off of running a 50/50 mix since that is what they recommend? The calculator didnt even ask for Injector size. It asks for Boost level, RPM's and How many liters your engine is...that is all it caltulates from. Oh also the 7.5 gph is with the pump being at 100psi. They said that my DO7 nozzle will from about 9 gph with the pump at 150psi.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.


I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.


I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.

What mix are you running? Everyone that I see running 30 psi have much bigger nozzles than the D07 that is recommended to me.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

-20* washer fluid from Advance Auto. I have absolutely no idea what the mixture is. The washer fluid list on the Devil's Own site is really out of date as walmart no longer sells their tech2000 washer fluid around here which is supposed to have the most meth content.


What's everyone else running? I choose to run washer fluid because it's cheap and accessable. Sometimes I'll throw a bottle or two of heet in there but not very often.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

-20* washer fluid from Advance Auto. I have absolutely no idea what the mixture is. The washer fluid list on the Devil's Own site is really out of date as walmart no longer sells their tech2000 washer fluid around here which is supposed to have the most meth content.


What's everyone else running? I choose to run washer fluid because it's cheap and accessable. Sometimes I'll throw a bottle or two of heet in there but not very often.

I will be running 50/50 because in Tx now you can only get 0* or 32* washer fluid now (they started that like a year ago is what I was told)

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Thank you for the reply. I got a little confused while reading it but I think I under stood enough to make a proper nozzle pick. Ive been reading the message board on the devils own site and now after re-reading your other posts in here it all makes sense. Thanks
I did the nozzle calculator on the Devils Own site and it said I would need to flow 7.5 gph if I wanted to run 30psi. How can they know that without asking what mix of water/meth I will be running...or is that number based off of running a 50/50 mix since that is what they recommend? The calculator didnt even ask for Injector size. It asks for Boost level, RPM's and How many liters your engine is...that is all it caltulates from. Oh also the 7.5 gph is with the pump being at 100psi. They said that my DO7 nozzle will from about 9 gph with the pump at 150psi.

The nozzle calculator is based off of a 50/50 mix so I will need a bigger nozzle to run a 70/30 mix (meth/water). I will play around with it and go as high as I can with the meth with the m7 nozzle....probably be like a 55/45 mix

 

[dsm-onster]

I'll bet they are basing the nozzle size off of BSFC and guestimateing horsepower with your variable your plugging in. BSFC changes significantly from setup to setup (IE curt browns car vs. your car).

Stick with the above for the most accurate. You do have some wiggle room regardless. Because the water injected should be from 15% to 20% of the fuel injected. That's a 25% difference in nozzle size. And the more meth you inject, the more your fuel tune is going to randomly vary based on the weather. It's not neccesary to be precise.

I'm running an DO3 before my BOV in the UICP and a DO7 in the TBE. It comes on at about 10psi. And I get no bogging no knock. Running 27psi on my S16g. That might help you make a decision.


I'm curious about what other people are shooting for AFR wise and what kind of timing others are getting on pump gas? When it's colder out my AFR seems to be in the low 11's and when it gets warmer out it's in the low 10's. I'm having problems keeping a consistent tune with temperature changes. Temperatures have been fluctuating a lot lately.

Well, you are injecting a fuel when injecting wiperfluid. The ecu doesn't compensate for this becuase it doesn't know that is happening. Thus, when you tune for 11:1 a/f ratio on a 60degree day with meth injection, the a/f ratio goes to about 10:1 on maybe a 90 degree day with meth injection. The ecu dials back the fuel injectors for the less dense aircharge but not the meth injected.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

Ahhhh.... Gotcha... makes sense now.

BTW for anyone that wants to know the Meth content of Advance Auto Parts brand -20* Wiper Fluid. Here is the MSDS sheet it shows roughly 35% mix by weight but could be less.

http://www.aapmsds.com/msdsimages/camco mfg inc/advance auto parts -20 windshield washer fluid.pdf

 

[19BLACKGST98]

DSM-onster: Ive been working on the math for my set up and I want to make sure everything is correct and that I didnt miss anything. I have 750cc injectors and at 80% IDC they would flow 600cc. 600cc X 4 = 2400cc
Min: 15% of 2400cc = 360cc
Max: 20% of 2400cc= 480cc

Weight diffrence calculations:
min: 360cc X 75% = 270cc
max: 480cc x 75% = 360cc

min: 270 x 60 = 16,200 cc/hr
max: 360 x 60 = 21,600 cc/hr

min: 16,200 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 4.28 gal/hr
max: 21,600 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 5.71 gal/hr

***Which would roughly equal an M5 nozzle to run Pure Water***

For a 50/50 mix I would multiply 150% X 5 = 7.5 gal/hr
You said I should go a little bigger but the next step up is an m10 (I believe)

IF I do the 70/30 mix (meth/water) that worked good for you then: 5 x 170% = 8.5 gal/hr.

Im assuming that I should order the M10 (DO10) nozzle and turn the pressure down but I want your opinion since you are more knowledgable on the subject.

EDIT: So if I wanted to run 30 psi I would set the pressure to 130 psi If I was running a 70/30 mix and had a 8.5 gal/hr nozzle (which doesnt exist). If I got the m10 nozzle and ran the 70/30 mix what PSI should the pump be set at?

 

[19BLACKGST98]

How do you determin how to make the mix? Do you measure the mix by volume or weight? It would be much easier by volume but is that the right way to do it?

 

[ApexVIII]

im running a M14 @ 200 PSI pump pressure, right now a 70 meth/30 water mix

 

[19BLACKGST98]

im running a M14 @ 200 PSI pump pressure, right now a 70 meth/30 water mix

Looks like you may have over did it a little if my math is correct for mine.Thanks for the info. What is your boost set at?

 

[dsm-onster]

DSM-onster: Ive been working on the math for my set up and I want to make sure everything is correct and that I didnt miss anything. I have 750cc injectors and at 80% IDC they would flow 600cc. 600cc X 4 = 2400cc
Min: 15% of 2400cc = 360cc
Max: 20% of 2400cc= 480cc

Weight diffrence calculations:
min: 360cc X 75% = 270cc
max: 480cc x 75% = 360cc

min: 270 x 60 = 16,200 cc/hr
max: 360 x 60 = 21,600 cc/hr

min: 16,200 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 4.28 gal/hr
max: 21,600 cc/hr divided by 3785 cc/gal = 5.71 gal/hr

***Which would roughly equal an M5 nozzle to run Pure Water***

For a 50/50 mix I would multiply 150% X 5 = 7.5 gal/hr
You said I should go a little bigger but the next step up is an m10 (I believe)

IF I do the 70/30 mix (meth/water) that worked good for you then: 5 x 170% = 8.5 gal/hr.

Im assuming that I should order the M10 (DO10) nozzle and turn the pressure down but I want your opinion since you are more knowledgable on the subject.

EDIT: So if I wanted to run 30 psi I would set the pressure to 130 psi If I was running a 70/30 mix and had a 8.5 gal/hr nozzle (which doesnt exist). If I got the m10 nozzle and ran the 70/30 mix what PSI should the pump be set at?

AAH! I messed up! I remember running an m10 and an m7 when maxing out my 450s with a 70/30 meth/water mix. Pump set to about 120psi (I was running 20psi). That doesn't jive. I know I needed an my 5 if I were to run pure water. My mix has 30% water. m5 / .3 = 16.6666gal/hr, or about an m10 & m7. So you need to take your M5 nozzle size that you would run if it were pure water and divide that by your percent water content, 5gal/hr / .5 = 10gal/hr or M10. This makes more sense anyway, as (total flow) X %water = (required water flow); (required water flow) / %water = (total flow). I don't know what I was thinking then. You have to divide out what you already have for water flow since it is in the mix.

. . . I edited my original post about this. Sorry if I've made you nervous. The math isn't really tricky. Just common sense.

How do you determin how to make the mix? Do you measure the mix by volume or weight? It would be much easier by volume but is that the right way to do it?

Do the mix by volume. The math I showed you converts the volume to weight for determining the amount of volume you need. The nozzle injects unit volume per unit time.




Concerning what ApexVIII uses:

Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

AAH! I messed up! I remember running an m10 and an m7 when maxing out my 450s with a 70/30 meth/water mix. Pump set to about 120psi (I was running 20psi). That doesn't jive. I know I needed an my 5 if I were to run pure water. My mix has 30% water. m5 / .3 = 16.6666gal/hr, or about an m10 & m7. So you need to take your M5 nozzle size that you would run if it were pure water and divide that by your percent water content, 5gal/hr / .5 = 10gal/hr or M10. This makes more sense anyway, as (total flow) X %water = (required water flow); (required water flow) / %water = (total flow). I don't know what I was thinking then. You have to divide out what you already have for water flow since it is in the mix.

. . . I edited my original post about this. Sorry if I've made you nervous. The math isn't really tricky. Just common sense.


Do the mix by volume. The math I showed you converts the volume to weight for determining the amount of volume you need. The nozzle injects unit volume per unit time.




Concerning what ApexVIII uses:

Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.

Oh ok. so an m10 for 50/50 and an m10 and m7 for 70/30. I will order a dual nozzle upgrade and an m10 nozzle today. This doesnt go with the rule of trippeling the nozzle size for pure water to run pure meth. if that was the case i would need an m15 nozzle for straight meth....but if i run 70/30 mix i need an m17 (m10 m7).??? I was also not really sure why you up the meth content if it doesnt improve the oct unless you dump in 15+ gal/hr. is it just because we already have the cooling amount of the water maxed out (wont help anymore to add more water) but do we need the extra meth because we havnt maxed out the cooling effects of it yet? Sorry for all of the questions and bad grammar, punctuation and spelling. Im on my phone in class and I am terrible at all of those anyways. I am the only dsm anywhere near my area that is running meth so I have no knowledgable local help.

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Sorry but my phone wont let me add to my last post. I also noticed you said max out 450cc injectors in your last post...was that a typo? wouldnt you use like an m3 for pure water with 450cc's...did you mean 750's?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

If his 450's were at 100% IDC it could be feasible that he would need a m17

 

[dsm-onster]

450cc at 100%IDC X 4injectors = 1800cc
1800cc X 20% = 360cc water flow
360cc waterflow X 60min/hr / 3785cc/gal = 5.7gal/hr

5.7gal/hr / 30% water per unit volume (70/30 mix) = 19gal/min. I was using an m10 and an m7.

5.7gal/min required water flow X 3 = 17.1gal/min. I was close enough for water/meth injection.

The rule of thumb is when you run way more meth than water or run pure meth, you tripple or quadruple the nozzle size that you would need for pure water. Leaning on the quadruple side for pure meth. It's not an exact science. But if you do the math for the most you'll push your injectors, then you'll save having to spend more money buying nozzles and shipping. Plus, you'll know that you're at the real limit of your total setup. You'll know for sure that if you get any knock after maxing out your injectors and you know you've injected the proper amount of meth/water, then you need to look into something else. Not many will see that limit .

 

[19BLACKGST98]

Oh ok. I will go ahead and oreder the dual nozzle upgrade and two m10's. I will start off with the m10 m7 cobo and if i cant run 30 psi I will run dual m10's. Thanks for the help again.

 

[ApexVIII]

Looks like you may have over did it a little if my math is correct for mine.Thanks for the info. What is your boost set at?

i did not do any math

i started with a M10 whit a 50/50 mix, got decent results so i tried the M14 with a 50/50mix got better results, tried 70/30 mix got even better results, a

all about what the car likes.

 

[ApexVIII]

Concerning what ApexVIII uses:

Original flow X SQRT (New base pressure / old base pressure) = New injector flow. So, M14 X SQRT ( [200psi - 30psi boost] / 100psi ) = 18.3gal/hr. 650s at 80% IDC require 4.9gal/hr to 6.6gal/hr. 6gal/hr / 30% water flow = 20gal/hr total flow needed for 70/30 meth/water mix.

im only at 25psi boost so would i still be in spec? on one M14?

 

[dsm-onster]

Close enough, actually closer to ideal. Like I said it's not an exact science. You got better and better results because you were getting close and closer to the ideal mixture for your nozzle flow and pump pressure.