Ask your water alcohol injection questions here.

[chrisb33]

Forgot to ask. Were you using 100% meth? if not, what was your mixture % look like when you did the dual injection?

chris b

 

[dsm-onster]

On the aquamist forums there are several instances, and one confirmed with a log, that the intercooler actually becomes an 'interheater'. Preturbo, with a large flow nozzle, the intake temps after the intercooler were above intake temps without a large flow nozzle. The inefficiency of an intercooler shows up with preturbo injection. Apparently,you need to tune the preturbo flow. You have to either get a more efficient intercooler, make the one you have more efficient (ducting like Corky Bell suggests, even for a FMIC), or use less preturbo nozzle.

Here is the aquamist thread discussing preturbo injection and intercooling with results: Preturbo Water Injection. But every time I try to enter the forums or that thread, I get this error message: Critical Error Error creating new session DEBUG MODE SQL Error : 145 Table ???

 

[H82lose91]

On the aquamist forums there are several instances, and one confirmed with a log, that the intercooler actually becomes an 'interheater'. Preturbo, with a large flow nozzle, the intake temps after the intercooler were above intake temps without a large flow nozzle. The inefficiency of an intercooler shows up with preturbo injection. Apparently,you need to tune the preturbo flow. You have to either get a more efficient intercooler, make the one you have more efficient (ducting like Corky Bell suggests, even for a FMIC), or use less preturbo nozzle.

Here is the aquamist thread discussing preturbo injection and intercooling with results: Preturbo Water Injection. But every time I try to enter the forums or that thread, I get this error message: Critical Error Error creating new session DEBUG MODE SQL Error : 145 Table ???

Not sure who you are talking to. I know my FMIC isnt the best but id say overall efficiency is pretty good considering ambient when those were taken was in the mid 80's. Also i was running 100% meth for the other poster. And my nozzle was about 2" from the turbo inlet. You can feel the compressor cover is cold. But im probly going back to my proven single nozzle.

 

[chrisb33]

Matt,

In that case Chance was right in using just an m1 nozzle pre turbo.

Also i remember turbo glenn and in the aquamist forum that should you want to do pre-turbo injection, you should also mount the injector as far away from the turbo as possible in order to create a finer mist before it reaches the turbo.

going to try this in the engine that im rebuilding with my hx35 and see what i come up with.

chris b

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea, Your intercooler is heating the air back up to the ambient temp outside, 80*F . Hence cold compressor outlet and hotter measured temps after the ic. There's a reason why the compressor is cold but the final temp is 80*F.

There is page after page of naca (NASA) and other other scientific study with data on "wet compression", "turbine inlet cooling" and it's high cooling effect. The nature of an intercooler is that it's efficiency is best when there is the most difference in temperature. Many GN guys use preturbo water injection. The hotair cars (non-intercooled pre '86) especially. It does take a juggling act with the intercooler or you will end up with slightly higher final temps.

Also since methanol does very little for absorbing heat vs. water when both are at the same droplet size, most recommend using pure water preturbo. Water has the chance to completely vaporize at the compressor exducer and will take out 3 times more heat than methenol when it does. Methanol shines in an environment where water cannot be reduced to the proper droplet size, like in an intake tract after the turbo. And performs about 3 times less when conditions are favorable for water to be properly broken down, like a turbo's compressor.

. . . I found the log I was looking for:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

More details can be found here. Namely:

Magenta are the temps right after the turbo. They are nowhere near as high as we'd expect them because of the cooling effects of the water spray. However this compromises the efficiency of the intercooler, and this is quite clear in the Yellow line (post-intercooler). The larger the nozzle, the smaller the effect of the intercooler.​

The guy who contributed the above log to the link there is the same one who I am talking about who posted on the aquamist forums, which are broken at the moment . All who posted to that aquamist thread came to the same conclusion as the above quote.

 

[H82lose91]

So are you saying a larger pre-turbo nozzle is needed to see gains? BC as i see it, the best IC in the world isnt going to net sub-ambient temps unless its a liquid/air setup. Oh well, i will be taking it off. I was hoping to see it extend the compressor map a bit and pick up a few psi up top. That didnt happen so ill take the additional cooling from the single M15.

 

[chrisb33]

no, on the contrary, a SMALLER pre-turbo nozzle is recommended to create a finer mist. Furthermore, in order to create an even finer mist before the meth/water reaches the compressor, mount it as far away from the turbo as possible.

check out 0.4 jet vs. 0.9 jet. graphs. Blue, pink, yellow lines have lower temp vs. 0.9 jet.

Matt,

i assume that this is a single nozzle pre-turbo graph w/o a second nozzle pre-TB. Because adding another injector pre-TB, id assume that the light blue legend will be lower at 0.4 jet?

chris b

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes this was a 1 nozzle setup. And you're correct, there's some "tuning" that needs to be done on a preturbo injection setup if you use an intercooler. The smaller nozzle does better, generally.

H82lose91, methanol is not good for injecting preturbo in the first place. You can still stretch the map, if you do preturbo WATER injection. Select your nozzle through logging final temp with various sizes. What size turbo do you have? There's nothing in your profile. What is your logged airflow? Before and after preturbo injection, if you have it?

 

[chrisb33]

Matt,

I think H82lose91 has a 16g in his profile IIRC. dont know what mods he did with the 16g though.

I just have to figure out a way how to do meth injection pre-TB and water injection pre-turbo. i dont think i can use just one pump with this kind of set up.

Or what i can do is put a 70/50 or a 50/50 mix of meth/water.

I'm even contemplating on trying turboglenn's experiment myself! - meth injection w/o FMIC. i was thinking of 3 or 4 injectors post turbo spaced out evenly plus 1 pre turbo injector. My theory is that the finer the mist, the more effective the injection system works. therefore, having it spaced out evenly and using smaller injectors like m5's or m7's pre TB and and M1 pre turbo...it might just work!

I think this wont be too expensive an experiment because im just going to mess up the UP going to the throttle body anyway if all fails, then i just install my FMIC if AIT just wont drop.

Chance,

how many check valves do you think i would need if i do the no FMIC set up stated above? im planning to get the parts from you. I already have a shurflo pump, a check valve, and a single m7.

chris b

 

[H82lose91]

H82lose91, methanol is not good for injecting preturbo in the first place. You can still stretch the map, if you do preturbo WATER injection. Select your nozzle through logging final temp with various sizes. What size turbo do you have? There's nothing in your profile. What is your logged airflow? Before and after preturbo injection, if you have it?

Im running a E3 16g. And its maxed out. Logs through the maftpro show 44/45lbs but thats an estimate since its in speed density mode. The car is pretty much full weight and prior to the pre-turbo setup was trapping 119mph. I guessing the car is making around 420whp now. I dont plan on running two systems, or mixing water and meth. Trying to keep that mixture consistent to keep the tune dialed in isnt worth the hassle. Some one else shows me gains with and with out the pre-turbo nozzle then i might consider it again. Dyno numbers, track times, datalogs, something. Had i believed everything i read back in the day about meth instead of doing it myself i would have never tried it. Hopefully someone else will have better results and data to back them up.

Right now my car is where it needs to be. I just need some seat time to make a clean pass and i should see my 11.3 which is all i want out of this setup. 125mph would have been nice but i dont think she has another 50hp hiding anywhere. And im not dropping weight.

 

[dsm-onster]

Keep it simple. Don't use meth. Use water. It will extend the map if using a preturbo nozzle and will still cool the intake charge really well post turbo. The best thing is that it will do a better job in the combustion chamber supressing knock, then the amount of meth you are using now. Use a larger number of smaller nozzles to get the droplet size down post turbo to make up for the better atomization meth provides. This will allow you to feed water preturbo from the same single system.

You posted in this thread. So you should know about this data: turboglenns watermeth injection experiments. I linked to where he starts using pre-turbo injection for himself. Logs and objective impressions. Faster spool speed. Brought the dsmlink estimated hp up 12% for turboglenn's case. Especially notice the logs of his fiend's small 16g setup being pushed close to it's limit at 35lb/min. With the addition of the preturbo water injection nozzle (50/50 water/meth) and a retune for the fuel curve which was affected by the meth, the peak airflow went up 3.5 lb/min! Airflow at 4600rpms in first gear was up from 18.4 lb/min to 23.1 lb/min.

 

[H82lose91]

No offense to TurboGlenn, but our findings quite differed when he was doing his no ic testing, and placing nozzles all over. Our temp data wasnt even close. His turbo was also hurt and in my opinion performing sub-par. His 16g test bed would have been a nice comparison but the guy moved away before they really got any hard data. Some drag passes to compare et and mph, or dyno runs would have been great for showing the improvements. I know what im seeing as results, and they are the same on the other dsm's and even a 300z we are using it on. And all run straight meth. While meth may not steam clean as well as water, combustion chambers remain clean, iats cooler, and the octane benefit over water cant be beat.

Maybe water is the key to extending the map, but for now im done. Dont plan to mix and dont plan to run dual systems. And adding multiple nozzles up stream to do what one with meth does now doesnt make sense. Noway will you make more power on water than straight meth.

It comes down to this, i tried something, it didnt work for me. Again maybe water is the key. Honestly pumping anything through the turbo isnt a good idea. So ill just go back to what i know worked.

 

[dsm-onster]

Fair enough.

I don't know how having a turbo that is about to blow has anything to do with getting better results by injecting water. But you're right to defend "to each his own".

 

[H82lose91]

Its not about better results, its one more variable that could be changing and influencing the results. If you dont have a consistent test platform whats that say about the results? Thats all im saying. ID have to go back and read that thread again but i believe the turbo had play and there was damage to the compressor. So by no means healthy.

Either way its all good, i appreciate the input and im just happy that i can share some of the data points i have come across on my personal vehicle.

 

[dsm-onster]

I understand. I just don't agree that a turbo about to blow has anything to do with whether or not pre-turbo water injection works. The same blowing turbo was used. If anything it was harder to spin (closer to failure) with the use of pre-turbo water injection second instead of first.

It's all good. The results are not to your satisfaction. And you're certainly entitled to your oopinion considering you're the one who has to fund you results. I'm glad we now have some concrete proof about how methanol injection preturbo would work.

 

[Car Cannibal]

H82Lose, IAT is referenced as the temps you see at the Maf/Cone, is that where you're taking your temps from or is it an MAT? They look like MAT temps not IAT temps.

And I couldn't see what mixtures you were running but Devils Own showed that Preturbo makes the most power as a 50/50 from a Diesel dyno pull graph. Meth has a much lower boiling point of 148 vs waters 212 so combined with a fine mist, Meth will have absorbed by the time it gets really close to the compressor blades IMO making it a safer Preturbo liquid aside from it's corrosion aspect.

H82Lose it looked like you gained 1psi from ditching the SMIC, hard to believe that was only it, and then temps went up 20 degrees vs alky and SMIC. I'd think running a twin nozzle, maybe 10/10gph of straight Meth Postturbo and the 1gph Preturbo 50/50 would net lower than 100 degree MAT temps intercoolerless. You'd need two separate systems though and probably not worth doing IMO unless the results showed you could sell off an FMIC.

 

[H82lose91]

H82Lose, IAT is referenced as the temps you see at the Maf/Cone, is that where you're taking your temps from or is it an MAT? They look like MAT temps not IAT temps.

MAT or IAT its the same thing it just matters where the sensor is mounted. My temp sensor was mounted post meth nozzle in the TBE.

And I couldn't see what mixtures you were running but Devils Own showed that Preturbo makes the most power as a 50/50 from a Diesel dyno pull graph. Meth has a much lower boiling point of 148 vs waters 212 so combined with a fine mist, Meth will have absorbed by the time it gets really close to the compressor blades IMO making it a safer Preturbo liquid aside from it's corrosion aspect.

No mixtures, only straight methanol.

H82Lose it looked like you gained 1psi from ditching the SMIC, hard to believe that was only it, and then temps went up 20 degrees vs alky and SMIC. I'd think running a twin nozzle, maybe 10/10gph of straight Meth Postturbo and the 1gph Preturbo 50/50 would net lower than 100 degree MAT temps intercoolerless. You'd need two separate systems though and probably not worth doing IMO unless the results showed you could sell off an FMIC.

Yes that was it, i can look back and see if i still have the logs. I was also running on a modded sidemount ic, so that 4psi drop should have been down around 1psi, of course i didnt have pressure sensors pre and post ic, just what was seen at the intake mani by the map sensor. My findings which backed up Turboglenns was that for a DD, having no IC was too inconsistent and no real gains.

Maybe this will motivate someone else to step up and try it and post some results. For now i know what works for me and my setup.

 

[dnhieu]

i started to really hate the cluster of wires from the meth pump so i decided that i wanted to relocate it to the back. i cant find pics of the clutter in my engine but here are the finished pics...

 

[Devilsown]

Yea, thanks for posting uup the pics to show people how to put on in the trunk.

 

[Devilsown]

Anyone have any questions that whre not answered above they sitll need answered?

 

[spyderturbo007]

What is your take on this thread? Guys are now saying that the nozzles aren't atomizing the mixture properly leading to the MeOH only reaching one or two cylinders.

I was just curious what your opinion was.

 

[Devilsown]

There are to many blank variables to give you a good answer. Like what size nozzle. what kinda pump, Most diy pumps are only 60psi and the nozzles need 40psi to work. What kinda nozzles they are using can effect distribution. Where they stuck it.

Imo i would assume too much was being injected and the nozzle probley should have been placed futher back in the system. But i am honesty just guessing because i need to see other things. Meth injection is good way to make power but in the dsm comunity its very common for people to try and run the largest nozzle possible. Big is not always better. Another thihng the further the runner is down the system the more meth that is going to evaporate as it adsorbs the heat,

 

[Car Cannibal]

It's scary how fast people will say something sucks or, I told you so, when they have little experience with it and/or don't know how to properly use, tune or monitor it.

If you're vehicle has a throttle body, try injecting methanol well before it so it completely absorbs in 100% of the inlet charge, DUH!! How can you have a meth distribution problem when it was sprayed in the only pipe that 100% of the inlet air leads to the intake in?? Multi port meth injection is playing with fire for newbs yet more and more of them are convinced it's the way to go.WTF

If you are spraying meth far before the TB and you have distribution problems I'd blame that on your intake, not meth. How about an injector clogging, meths fault or product/tuners fault? Is it high octane fuels fault when you blow a head gasket because you ran too lean?

Devils Own, I'm getting my 2nd kit this year as 110 octane is soaring through the roof here. M10 straight meth around 16psi is a winner in my book.

 

[dsm-onster]

"It's not streetable because I'm too lazy to check the resevoir tank at my gas fillups."

"Corky say no use"

"Pump will get stuck on. I don't want to hydrolock my motor and bend my rods. So what if my combustion chamber is 67cc and at an idle I need to have 800rpms X 67cc = 53600cc/min water flow to lock the motor."

etc.

 

[thilaksharma]

I have finally running the car on 29psi , i have got an AEM water injection set
but im still wondering , is it ok to put the tank at the back trunk and place the pump at the engine bay ?
AEM does not have check valves or anything to prevent reverse flow, is it ok ?

or should i just place the pump and the tank at the front bay

thank you