1G 90 talon clutch not engaging?

[Justin Lauscher]

Hey guys, made a account just so I could ask this. I've had a 90 talon TSI AWD for about 4 years, it has just been sitting. It has all the goodies, 16g, injectors, exhaust. But anyways I recently bought a fidanza 8lb aluminum flywheel and I had a clutch master xtreme 6 puck springless clutch laying around from when I got it so I decided to put it in. I bought the car with a fried trans so I went and bought a 93 parts car for the tranny. I've had the car apart 2 times trying to figure this problem out, its almost like the clutch is locked. It shifts fine while not running and while it's running you can't get it into any gear. When you start it in gear regardless if the clutch is pushed in or not it will jump forward. I'm wondering if I made a mistake with the new trans needing something different? I did swap trans cases also. The clutch also came with a new TOB. The slave also works.

 

[whitedsm91]

Is the flywheel new or used? I would start with easier things first. Are you positive the clutch slave cylinder and master cylinder are functioning properly? Have u replaced all the fluid, could be possible there's moisture in the fluid, since you mentioned it has been sitting.

Also when u pulled the Trans did u get a good look at the pivot ball and fork? Your clutch before could have been so worn the fork and pivot ball still managed to disengage it, but with the new pressure plate it isn't disengaging.

There are quite a few threads on here that will explain proper fork alignment. It's a easy thing to check. I had the same kinda thing when I replaced my clutch, and it was a worn shifter fork/pivot ball

 

[Justin Lauscher]

I'll have to do a fork alignment just to make sure, the slave is working and it does have all new fluid in it. I had the fork off and I compared it to my old trans just to make sure everything was similar and it didn't seem as if it was that warn, along with the pivot ball, I'll still check them, thanks for the input! Flywheel is brand spankin new

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

What do you mean by swapping trans cases?

The shift linkage differences are likely your issue. The 90 is unique as a DSM. There is a specific shift bracket on the case, along with completely different shift cables and shifter base.
Things you will need from your parts car aside from the trans and transfer case are; Shifter assembly and cables. The correct bracket on the trans for the shifter cables (90 and 91+ are different). Basically Everything that has anything to do with the trans (except the mounts, slave cylinder, clutch line, and flywheel/clutch) will need to changed. You cannot use your 90 short shifter with the 91+ shifter assembly because the 1990 shifters have a larger diameter bolt going through the shifter. 91+ shifter base and cables can be from a FWD turbo or AWD turbo doesn't matter.

There are numerous threads about this you can use for reference:

• http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/91-94-shift-assembly-in-a-90.416781/
• http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/shifter-issues-with-90-vs-91.452044/
  
• http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/ho...kets-diff-between-90-91-dsm-vr4-trans.355940/
  
• http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/90-shift-linkage-vs-91-94-shift-linkage.93739/

A VFAQ reference: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/shifter-diffs.html
There are many others to be found with some searching.

 

[whitedsm91]

No problem bro, I've run into the same thing. I totally overlooked it during my rebuild. Started my brand new engine for the first time, and went to put it in gear and it all went to hell. I tried for days, I tried all the "shim" tricks, adjusted my clutch pedal under the dash, even had a longer slave cylinder rod made at my work, nothing helped. I finally checked the alignment, sure enough it was way off. So I bit the bullet, and ordered the competition clutch forged fork and ball. Tore the whole Trans back out, 3 hour job when it only takes 3 mins to swap the fork and ball. That totally took care of it.

Jacks transmissions has some good info on their sute, it's a worth a read.

 

[whitedsm91]

Good point about the shifter cables too! Forgot about the 90s being that much different from the 91s

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Dam im sorry I forgot to mention, I changed the cables and the shifter assembly when I swapped the tranny and transfer case. I did my research on swapping everything to a 90 from a 91+

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

There is also a bracket on the trans that should be swapped as well.

 

[Justin Lauscher]

The bracket was swapped aswell

 

[pauleyman]

Cables wouldn't cause this. Clutch hydraulics will. As will physical problems with the pedal, fork, ball, flywheel or clutch itself

 

[Dhan]

Just dealt with this. Sounds more like the clutch is failing to disengage.

I'll give you my story really quick. Mine turned out to be the clutch master cylinder. It was bolted too tightly to the firewall and the rod either wasn't getting a full throw or was binding when the pedal was pressed. It also caused issues with bleeding. Exact same symptoms you described.
This may or may not be your problem.

But I would start where pauleyman suggested. Check and recheck that hydraulic system.

You may have already checked these things, but just in case....
-The pedal assembly itself may be expired. There are bushings in the bracket where the pedal pivots that wear out.
-Check to see where the fork sits in the little window under the trans. When everything is at rest it should sit in the middle or a bit towards the driver side of the vehicle.
-Verify the fork and pivot ball are in spec. They may look alright to the naked eye but using a caliper you can check this for sure. Exact specs are listed here in the forums.
-Bleed the system using the methods listed on the forums. Make sure to press in the slave by hand to push out that last bit of air that can hide there.
-Flywheel step-height has to be within spec. From what I've read, it differs between setups. But .610-.614" is what you're shooting for.
-Are the pressure plate bolts torqued to the proper spec or torqued at all?
- Was the clutch centered with a clutch centering tool when installed? Did the clutch get misaligned during trans install?

Those are some ideas for issues off the top of my head. I removed my trans three times chasing my problem, so I feel your pain. Keep us posted!

 

[pauleyman]

When you guys do 8 drops in a weekend chasing this call me.

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Just dealt with this. Sounds more like the clutch is failing to disengage.

I'll give you my story really quick. Mine turned out to be the clutch master cylinder. It was bolted too tightly to the firewall and the rod either wasn't getting a full throw or was binding when the pedal was pressed. It also caused issues with bleeding. Exact same symptoms you described.
This may or may not be your problem.

But I would start where pauleyman suggested. Check and recheck that hydraulic system.

You may have already checked these things, but just in case....
-The pedal assembly itself may be expired. There are bushings in the bracket where the pedal pivots that wear out.
-Check to see where the fork sits in the little window under the trans. When everything is at rest it should sit in the middle or a bit towards the driver side of the vehicle.
-Verify the fork and pivot ball are in spec. They may look alright to the naked eye but using a caliper you can check this for sure. Exact specs are listed here in the forums.
-Bleed the system using the methods listed on the forums. Make sure to press in the slave by hand to push out that last bit of air that can hide there.
-Flywheel step-height has to be within spec. From what I've read, it differs between setups. But .610-.614" is what you're shooting for.
-Are the pressure plate bolts torqued to the proper spec or torqued at all?
- Was the clutch centered with a clutch centering tool when installed? Did the clutch get misaligned during trans install?

Those are some ideas for issues off the top of my head. I removed my trans three times chasing my problem, so I feel your pain. Keep us posted!

Thanks for this input, I never checked the clutch master nor the pedal, I'll be checking that tomorrow. I did center the clutch while I installed it and I did torque the pressure plate slace to 14 ft lbs. Also tomorrow I will be picking up the new slave cylinder to rule that out and bleed the hell out of it for now. After that I'll be focused on the pedal, anything to stop from yanking the trans again. I bought the flywheel brand new and right for the 90-94 (I think 94) AWD 6 bolt and I compared it to my stock one and it looked very similar. I didn't bring out the caliper or anything but it looked the same to me. After I try all that with the pedal and stuff I'll check out the pivot ball. I do appreciate all the input guys, thanks for steering me in the right direction!

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Update: I just took a rachet strap and attached it to the fork aswell as the rim, I racheted the fork as much as I could and started the car and still won't go into gear. I suppose that rules out the slave and master aswell as clutch pedal. Now I'm leaning towards pivot ball and fork?

 

[awdboostin]

I wish I had an answer for this one as well. I just did a new rebuilt trans, fidanza flywheel, act 2900 pp,oem master,oem slave and new bushings for the pedal assembly. My car shift's fine off and worked fine before all of this but I have the same exact problem of mine not going into gear due to the clutch not fully disengaging when pressed. I have had the trans in and out 3 times trying different pivot ball shims and what not and the thing will not disengage to shift and I'm losing my mind. I will tell you this after I switched from a junk brand new 30 dollar slave from autozone to an oem one the pedal became MUCH better and was a lot more responsive. Same with the master also but still just didn't quite do it. I have never been so beat by what should be an easy fix

 

[pauleyman]

Youve made alot of assumptions. You bought a flywheel but didnt verify the step height. what is the height even supposed to be for your clutch? There are the things you must verify. Beyond that the hydraulics, pedal and fork must all work correctly. Are all bolts present on the trans ESPECIALLY the one that goes in from the backside?

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Youve made alot of assumptions. You bought a flywheel but didnt verify the step height. what is the height even supposed to be for your clutch? There are the things you must verify. Beyond that the hydraulics, pedal and fork must all work correctly. Are all bolts present on the trans ESPECIALLY the one that goes in from the backside?

Yeah all the bolts are in the trans. I know I'm good at assuming I guess I was just hoping to get lucky. The clutch is a clutch master xtreme stage 4 that came with the car brand new when I bought it so I really don't know any info on it. It's a 6 puck with no interior springs. The flywheel has no info on it from the page I bought it, I have compared it to the stock and it looks very much similar. Just of course it's shiny and 11 pounds lighter.

 

[whitedsm91]

It's just a process of elimination, have you checked the alignment of the fork in the window by the slave cylinder? It's a 30 sec check, and that's one more thing we can eliminate. I would recruit some help, have a helper push on the clutch pedal for you, and watch the slave cylinder to make sure it's moving that clutch fork enough.

Even though a flywheel is brand new out of the box, it can still be out of tolerance. I've seen flywheels brand new be .060 thousands out. Aluminum flywheels have a steel face pressed onto them, it might just be a fluke that you got one that wasn't good.

And just a personal preference of mine, do not look into using the longer slave cylinder rod. That's just a short cut around a bigger problem in a system. Worst case scenario with that fix, is it would over extend the shifter fork, pushing the pressure plate 'fingers' into the flywheel, and causing major damage.

 

[pauleyman]

You need to find out what specs are needed for that clutch and measure the flywheel step height with a depth mic.

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Okay I have my thinking cap on. I'm going to go with what pauley said. I'm going to pull it back out and measure the step height on the flywheel. I'm ruling out all the clutch hydraulics since my rachet strap idea didn't work with the clutch fork. I have no idea what my clutch needs, so how much travel is the plate going to need besides the thickness of the pucks? Probably like 30 to 40 thousandths? Last resort I'll just shim the clutch away from the flywheel because obviously right now its too tight. I'll make the f***er work. I WILL drive it to work on Monday.

 

[pauleyman]

Call the clutch company and ask them what it requires. You do NOT measure the disk to figure this out.

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Call the clutch company and ask them what it requires. You do NOT measure the disk to figure this out.

Sounds good. I'll be doing it tomorrow

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Back on the grind guys. Just got the tranny out. I called the clutch company and they said oem step height. I'm gonna take the time to adjust the fork and pivot ball. Make sure the flywheel is right, I'll keep y'all updated from here.

 

[Justin Lauscher]

Update: pivot ball was too worn, thankfully the one off my junk trans is good. You can even visually see the difference. So I'll use the fork and ball from my bad trans.

 

[twicks69]

Is the disk installed in the proper orientation?