4g63 NA Buildup

[mrcheeze]

Hey guys, I was wondering what it would take to produce approximately 200-250hp on a NA Motor. I drive a 94 Talon. I was thinking of rebuilding my head with Brian Crower springs and retainers, new cams, and valves with port work on the head. I would like to know what cams you guys would suggest. Any other info would be appreciated as well.

 

[Wildeclipse2000]

Your N/A is the 420A. There was not a 4g63 N/A made. But to answer your question would probably be putting on a turbo. There are a couple of kits out there that you can choose from. I know at the moment slowboyracing.com is having a sale on there kit. Building your engine up would be a good idea but you can get a good 200hp with a turbo,

Not true.

The 90-94 non turbo motors were 4g63s.

If you are looking to get to your 200-250 hp mark, you will really need to do some good port work with the cams, valves and springs.

The other thing is to raise the compression with the piston/rod combo. Just make sure you do some research on how high of compression is ok, before it won't run properly on pump gas.

 

[freshlane]

he is refering to the 4g63 non-turbo motor. Many people agree than the HKS 272 cams work really well

 

[Wildeclipse2000]

Your idea of running Brian Crower products is a good one. I run all of Brian's stuff in the RWD, and have had great luck with it. If you call Brian up, he can give you exactly what you need, and all of his stuff is priced very well.

 

[kronus]

he is refering to the 4g63 non-turbo motor. Many people agree than the HKS 272 cams work really well

Where did you get the idea that 272's work well with a non-turbo? Yes, doing VE (volumetric efficiency) mods will help, but you're looking at a lot of time, money, and fine tuning to reach a 250hp level.

A lot of the mods you will see in these boards are various forms of headwork, OS valves, and cams. While these will give an improvement over your stock setup, the gains will not be huge. I want to address the 272 comment. Yes, 272's are proven to be very effective at upping horsepower and torque, they only do this in turbocharged motors. An N/A motor just doesn't have the ability to take advantage of those VE mods. Also, 272's not only increase your power, but they move the power up towards the top end of your powerband. While this is great for turbocharged motors, this doesn't do much for an N/A application. I'm not going to get into why, but if you really want to know, read some VFAQs as well as reading up about turbochargers.

EDIT: Just so you know, I'm in the same boat as your N/A guys. If you really want power, I'd say read up on swaps, and save your money to find a junked turbo DSM. You'd be spending much less in the long run to get one of these motors to the power level you're looking for.

 

[Raph]

Not true.

The 90-94 non turbo motors were 4g63s.

If you are looking to get to your 200-250 hp mark, you will really need to do some good port work with the cams, valves and springs.

The other thing is to raise the compression with the piston/rod combo. Just make sure you do some research on how high of compression is ok, before it won't run properly on pump gas.

i beg to defer , the 4g63 nt was also made thruogh 1999 in 2gs sold in other countries.

im boosting 12 psi on stock block, running 93 octane,afpr and safc, bullseye vtrim..

but dyno says more than 250 hp ,tons more.

formula .. low compression needs high boost.. high compression will pull well on low boost.

i beat this car wot on the autobahn.. nothings broken yet ( 2 yrs strong!)

 

[Raph]

he is refering to the 4g63 non-turbo motor. Many people agree than the HKS 272 cams work really well

theres a company here that makes nt cams, i can get the specs and prices if you want.

its dbilas dynamic

 

[mrcheeze]

theres a company here that makes nt cams, i can get the specs and prices if you want.

its dbilas dynamic

Yes I would like to see those specs and prices if you could come up with them. Thanks. Hey guys, I don't mean to sound like a noob but what kind of power do you think headwork, cams, OS valves and springs and stuff would net me? Intake and exhaust would soon follow all that too by the way.

 

[be989]

i beg to defer , the 4g63 nt was also made thruogh 1999 in 2gs sold in other countries.

im boosting 12 psi on stock block, running 93 octane,afpr and safc, bullseye vtrim..

but dyno says more than 250 hp ,tons more.

formula .. low compression needs high boost.. high compression will pull well on low boost.

i beat this car wot on the autobahn.. nothings broken yet ( 2 yrs strong!)

Ralph, 12 psi on a 9:1 cr?

 

[Raph]

Ralph, 12 psi on a 9:1 cr?

according to my handbook its 9.4 ,some books say 9.5 ,

but the 4g63 nt made (in germany anyway) 150 hp (10.4) 147 hp (9.5) 146 hp(9.4) and 141 hp on the nt block..the cars had different emisions ratings..

any 4g63 nt can boost 10 psi safely on a stock block

i run this car hard, and the hg is still stock.. too much people are a victim of bad tunes .

i mean my tune isnt anywhere near optimal.. but i can fly with this car. wb02 and fuel control is crucial.

 

[Raph]

Yes I would like to see those specs and prices if you could come up with them. Thanks. Hey guys, I don't mean to sound like a noob but what kind of power do you think headwork, cams, OS valves and springs and stuff would net me? Intake and exhaust would soon follow all that too by the way.

bummer,looks like theye only offering regrinds for mitsus now..

heres the link
http://www.dbilas-dynamic.de/dbilas_eng/index.htm

i guess the only place to find new cams would be finding them on ebay..

 

[Mikael]

Where did you get the idea that 272's work well with a non-turbo? Yes, doing VE (volumetric efficiency) mods will help, but you're looking at a lot of time, money, and fine tuning to reach a 250hp level.

A lot of the mods you will see in these boards are various forms of headwork, OS valves, and cams. While these will give an improvement over your stock setup, the gains will not be huge. I want to address the 272 comment. Yes, 272's are proven to be very effective at upping horsepower and torque, they only do this in turbocharged motors. An N/A motor just doesn't have the ability to take advantage of those VE mods. Also, 272's not only increase your power, but they move the power up towards the top end of your powerband. While this is great for turbocharged motors, this doesn't do much for an N/A application. I'm not going to get into why, but if you really want to know, read some VFAQs as well as reading up about turbochargers.

EDIT: Just so you know, I'm in the same boat as your N/A guys. If you really want power, I'd say read up on swaps, and save your money to find a junked turbo DSM. You'd be spending much less in the long run to get one of these motors to the power level you're looking for.

Cams don't do much for n/a applications? Have you ever heard of domestic vehicles?

 

[Quasimondo]

I think you should take a look at what folks do to build up other N/A four bangers. See what they do for Toyota 4AGE, Honda B-Series, Nissan N/A SR20, Mazda BP's, and even the domestic stuff. This month's issue of Hemming's Sports & Exotic Cars had an article on kit cars based on the Lotus 7 that was powered by a 250 hp Ford Duratec. If folks can get 200 hp from 1.6 and 1.8 litre Hondas, and 1.6 litre toyotas, extracting 200 hp shouldn't be that difficult, if you do your homework.

I've researched this before when I wanted to build up a n/t 1G for autocross (and to avoid being placed in a group of drivers that would leave me outgunned) and I've come across the same themes.

1: Good cams. I'm not the camshaft guru, so can somebody please educate me and everybody else on why 272 cams won't work, especially when I've seen cams as big as 304's on a 4AGE motor that work just fine? I'm sure duration isn't the end all-be all, could it be that the intake and exhaust timing would be different for a n/a build than it would be for a turbo build?

As far as moving the power further up in the power band, a lot of the n/a builds that I've seen all have made their power at the top end, with the exception of the Duratecs, but I believe that's owing more to their displacement which allowed that engine to be good at midrange levels too. I could be wrong, but it seems that the only to make this kind of number is at the top end.

2: Compression. AMG (yes, the same AMG that builds uberBenzes) produced a tuned version of the Galant in Japan known as the AMG Galant. It was FWD, n/a and put out 170 hp. It did this with aggressive cams (more aggressive than turbo), a 10.5:1 CR, and a redline bumped to 7500 rpm's. You can't make big numbers from just bolt-on's alone. You're going to have to bump the compresison. One idea I threw around in my head was to install a turbo engine harness and turbo ecu so you can use the knock sensor. Then you can raise the compression even higher (to the point that you can only run premium or better), and if you get any knock, the ecu will pull timing back to a safe level. Another added benefit would be that you can also use DSMLink for tuning instead of just a SAFC or going to a standalone.

3. Headers. It's an overlooked aspect of n/a tuning, but if you pick up the past three issues of Turbo magazine, you'll find a great technical article by racing guru Mike Kojima on how to build headers. His bottom line is this: aftermarket headers are designed to work with stock engines on stock compression with stock cams. If you're serious about making power, you'll have to make your own headers that are properly designed for your specific engine. The biggest thing affecting how well a header works is not backpressure or how well it flows, but how well it can scavenge exhaust gases and help the engine pull in fresh air.

4. Headwork. I'm not sure if porting these heads would be necessary beyond a deburring and general cleanup since these are good flowing heads and you don't want to mess it up. I'm sure there's a cylinder head guru on here that can answer that question.

I'm really hoping you make good on this project. There's been a number of people who have talked the talk, but were quickly discouraged when the five or six bolt on's they tried only netted them a handful of ponies and were easily swayed by others to abandon their project and pick up a turbo dsm. 250 hp isn't going to push you into your seat, but I'm sure if it's done right it'll be a blast to drive on the twisties.

 

[Raph]

yeah,get the compression bumped up, and..in new zealand and austraila theres companies offering individual TB setups and all the stuff for nt 4g63s

you need someting like 296s or 298s on your nt setup.

also,surf ebay.au.com (australia) for 4g63 nt stuff.

edit: the german nt guys have gotten the cyclone setups to work..using a ecu pin out and a vw/audi solenoid..ill try to find the how to for ya. they claim it works flawlessly.

and it seems to make to nts a tad quicker..meaning the work involved and the gains go hand in hand.

 

[Quasimondo]

You have links for the companies doing ITB setups for 4G63's?

 

[kronus]

Cams don't do much for n/a applications? Have you ever heard of domestic vehicles?

Why yes I have! Did you know that they have two times as much displacement as we have? And then some! Thank you for your input, and you're right. Huge engines benefit from cams because of their ability to pull in huge amounts of air naturally. But us in our 2.0? Not so much. That's what I was saying.

But I digress. Cams will give you a benefit in NA, but you'd need to run a wicked and wild cam set up.

you need someting like 296s or 298s on your nt setup.

I've seen cams as big as 304's

 

[Han]

well, I use on my 4g63 N/A Brian Crower 288/288 and its woking perfect

 

[CrackedDSM]

This thread is EIGHT YEARS OLD. You felt the need to resurrect it, to post that?

 

[Phantom DSM]

Lolz
Its a new year bro, let him have his moment. Damm 288s on n/a

 

[arrowhead]

This thread is EIGHT YEARS OLD. You felt the need to resurrect it, to post that?

I dont think bringing old threads back to life is a bad idea at all, a lot of new and not so new members can benefit from the info contained in them.

I, in my search for info have benefited the most from going back years and reading these threads that started it all. specifically on N/A engines, although not the bread and butter for most people here, still the fact remains that N/A engines are the bread and butter of the racing world in general.

True that our particular engines were designed with a turbo in mind, and not as an engine that a turbo could be added.

Maybe if it had been the other way around, there would have been more R&D on our cars like there has been on other brands.

For instance from this old thread I learned that other companies are making more radical cams for the N/A engines and are available, I know that others can make regrinds and almost anything you may want, but it is good to have more options.

It is difficult to find info on these engines when a turbo is not going to be used or can not be used because of class rules.

I perfectly understand, a turbo is the easiest and simplest way to more power in these engines, but you dont race an engine you race a platform with a turbo or without.

 

[Steve93Talon]

There are quite a few all motor Mitsus out there.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/460537-mitsubishi-2l-all-motor-11-31-118-mph.html

Paul at JNZ Tuning has a 1G FWD with a built high comp 2.4, 2G head, SMIM, big cams, DSMlink, etc. It's been 99% complete for awhile, I've been bugging him to finish up the odds and ends and get the thing to the track.

 

[arrowhead]

There are quite a few all motor Mitsus out there.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/460537-mitsubishi-2l-all-motor-11-31-118-mph.html

Paul at JNZ Tuning has a 1G FWD with a built high comp 2.4, 2G head, SMIM, big cams, DSMlink, etc. It's been 99% complete for awhile, I've been bugging him to finish up the odds and ends and get the thing to the track.

Does he have a write up on his build?

The guys in Puerto Rico are some of the best at getting power out of small engines but if you read the complete post I dont think there were any 4g63 in the group, although I am sure there are some fast ones there.

 

[DSSA]

There are quite a few all motor Mitsus out there.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/460537-mitsubishi-2l-all-motor-11-31-118-mph.html

Paul at JNZ Tuning has a 1G FWD with a built high comp 2.4, 2G head, SMIM, big cams, DSMlink, etc. It's been 99% complete for awhile, I've been bugging him to finish up the odds and ends and get the thing to the track.

Or at least get it out of my way at the shop!