35r or 60-1 for pump gas?

[GVR4592]

No one can run 25+ psi w/ ANY turbo and just pump gas w/ our long block (+ good cams). No one can reach the potential of either wheel w/out running some muffed timing curve and drowning the engine in fuel IF they run JUST pump gas.

You should rephrase that to read "Not many people" instead of "No one". It's rare, but it can be done.

 

[dsm-onster]

I reach 20 psi by 4000ish rpms in 3rd gear. After that, the trip to 30 psi is quick. Keeping her spooled is still the challenge between shifts. THIS is where ballistic center sections shine. I run DSMLink and the NLTS is quite comical w/ FWD .

Running 1000cc injectors have been good for me so far. No idle issues. and as of now I'm seeing 65ish % IDC. The end of the compressor map is where a walbro 255 hp craps out. I've opted to lower fuel pressure back to 37 psi (stock 1G) and increase my % IDC so that I can yield a higher flow from the rewired walbro 255hp. When I install my m62 supercharger, I will be pushing to this level. Lowering the base fuel pressure allows the injectors to take up the slack (stay open longer) of the fuel pump. I'll be pushing them both (injectors and pump) pretty rigorously by then. But more evenly.

I run FP2Xs. I love them. They show me a broad power band. And demand good flow from my compressor. I THINK the BEP housing is actually rather big. It seams the volume of the volute is in between a .63 a/r & a .82 a/r t3 garrett. So I can't really give you what you're after as I just don't know your hotside personally.

I wish I had gone w/ the t3 stage 5, not stage 3. This turbo spools VERY quick considering. I also run a E compressor cover. This sacrifices some flow for a little efficiency. Which is just robbing Peter to pay Paul in my book. I wish I had gone w/ a standard cover Peak flow is what I'm after any shortcomings can be engineered around . I have a 9" X 24" X2.5" FMIC and a 400hp capable water nozzle.

 

[dsm-onster]

You should rephrase that to read "Not many people" instead of "No one". It's rare, but it can be done.

Yup. You know there's ALWAYS someone out there whose done it. I should NEVER guarantee absolutions . . .

 

[Slippi84]

You know, I've heard both and no clear cut answer to why the discrepancy.


What's the difference between 25 psi w/ a gt35r compressor and a 60-1? Intercooler efficientcy is king here. It will cancel out the small differences between these wheels all the way to choke.

No one can run 25+ psi w/ ANY turbo and just pump gas w/ our long block (+ good cams). No one can reach the potential of either wheel w/out running some muffed timing curve and drowning the engine in fuel IF they run JUST pump gas.

I've turned my 60-1 setup into a daily driver at 30 psi (pump gas = DD to me). I run water/alky injection. I've seen the same on a local GT35R. He runs the same nozzle flow and pump and same mix. I just met him a week ago.


Keep in mind that ballistic center sections yield only a 15% quicker spool.
_______________

Pick your poison. Both flow just a hair over 60 lbs/min. Id' be more concerned about your hotside. Your hotside is what yiels more hp PER psi than any other factor alone. Of course, assuming you have a compressor wheel capable of supplying the demand.

360 degree race thrust bearings rarely fail and are rebuildable . But that's another debate.

This debate on which turbo will yield the highest pump gas figures is just odd to me. The intercooler plays such a key role and simple math can show you how aftercooling ultimately dictates how cool the air is passing into the combustion chamber. Also real results: I noticed zero difference going from 22 psi on my small 16g to 22 psi on my 18g. The small 16g was logging beyond choke.


Again, (if I'm reading you correctly) 'lackluster' has so much to do w/ turbine than compressor. My t3 stage 3 turbine in the BEP housing feels FUN at 25 psi. Feels devilish at 30. I know that I'm slightly choking up top. But the FUN is worth it. A GT35R (56-trim) compressor wheel is nearly the same diameter; nearly the same flow. Again, turbine a/r and wheel dimensions have MUCH more to do w/ fun and where it hits than anything.

But neverthless, I'm a big fan of the 60-1 becasue I have one and it is quite satisfying .

I agree w/ the suggestion to look into Borg-Warner if your current turbo is not enough for you. They can do this:

http://www.tmrmp3.com/bullseyepower/rau.wmv

Also Kiggly runs one.

when you use water/alky injection it kinda nulifies the comparison all together. I don't doubt that your 60-1 was a nice setup I like the turbo but next to a gt35r will not make as much power on pump in most cases. There is a diffrence bewteen a gt35r and a 60-1 at 25psi when tuned properly that's the key. You can't just swap turbos run the same boost and be golden. You have to adjust timing and a/f to accomidate the strengths of the new turbo.


http://slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=37&cat=192&page=1

 

[Slippi84]

The GT35R is a 62 lb/min turbo.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT35/GT3582R_714568_2.htm

The turbo is rated to 65lbs/min just cause the map only shows it going to 62lbs doesn't mean that's it's rating check anyone's sight who sells any form of teh gt35r it's rated to 650hp(65lbs/min) the most obvious example of this theory is the FP3065 which is the gt30 wheel rated to 65lbs/min and is rated to 650hp

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...duct_Code=NTDSMFP3065&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo

 

[dsm-onster]

when you use water/alky injection it kinda nulifies the comparison all together. I don't doubt that your 60-1 was a nice setup I like the turbo but next to a gt35r will not make as much power on pump in most cases. There is a diffrence bewteen a gt35r and a 60-1 at 25psi when tuned properly that's the key. You can't just swap turbos run the same boost and be golden. You have to adjust timing and a/f to accomidate the strengths of the new turbo.

Nope, a simple FMIC can negate the difference in efficiencies all the way to choke. 25 psi at 65% efficiency and 25psi at 75% efficiency costs under 10* F when running a decent FMIC (at 73-75% efficiency). That's a wapping 5 hp. Yes, my water injectino setup yilds below ambient aircharge temps. Tat is over 100% efficiency. I'm only supposing anyone would run a simple FMIC w/ around 75% efficiency. See the math derived from the Adabiatic Process (a side: alter the intercooler effieiency 10% and see what happens).

The basic adabiatic procces is T2 = T1 x (P2/P1)^0.286. From this we can derive:

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I simply swapped turbos and was golden. I changed the timing advance slightly for where the 18g spooled (it spooled later). Any more aggresive timing than I had tuned w/ my small 16g after boost yeilded the same knock after boost on my 18g.

All that 'tuned properly' mess is what we've been pumped full of from the dyno shops. It's not your fault. Retuning the curve to accomodate the different onset of boost is what's really important when switching turbos. After that, if your intercooler has decent efficiency you can run your turbo to choke w/out overly heating the aircharge, as shown.

http://slowboyracing.com/estore/product.php?productid=37&cat=192&page=1

I don't like arguing coefficients. But I've always heard 10.5 * X Lb/min = Y horsepower.

As such for me, the 625 hp noted in that link suggests only a 59 lb/min airflow. not a 65 lb/min airflow. I think both compressor wheels flow more than their compressor map alludes.

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Oh, and I've also had a 60-1, and I hated it. Lots of race gas power, not so impressive on pump.

I agree completely 100%. Doesnt really make a lot of power till 24+psi.....but it absolutely LOVES race gas.

 

[drivemusicnow]

you keep posting the same formulas that really don't effectively calculate anything. Show me pressure loss in that system. Show me where you include the frictional losses due to the bends in the pipes. Show me where you include the heat loss/gain throughout the piping system. There is a lot more there, and it's definitely not negligible.

oh, and tell all of this to the guy who (miraculously or not) is running like 33 psi on an FP3052, on pump gas, with almost full timing.

 

[dsm-onster]

you keep posting the same formulas that really don't effectively calculate anything. Show me pressure loss in that system. Show me where you include the frictional losses due to the bends in the pipes. Show me where you include the heat loss/gain throughout the piping system. There is a lot more there, and it's definitely not negligible.

Just becasue you don't get it doesn't mean that nothing is there. I'm calculating heat gain from compressing air. What else is there with respect to compressor efficiency? Total flow? We all know both compressors flow enough for this guys goals. Come on now.

Who cares about bends, surface friction losses, heat conduction, pressure loss. I'm saying, if you run the same setup but different compressor wheels, if both flow enough meet your engine's demand; then compressor efficiency is negledgable. I've done it. If you run a better setup (lower pressure loss across the IC, smother piping, better flowing head, whatever) then you're not compairing apples to apples any more. Why would the original poster run a better setup for one turbo and not do the same for another?

If you plan on running a 60 lb/min capable setup. Then BOTH compressor wheels discussed will be fine and be w/in a few hp of each other. It would be better for one to bother himself w/ the other end of the turbo.

oh, and tell all of this to the guy who (miraculously or not) is running like 33 psi on an FP3052, on pump gas, with almost full timing.

So what? Kudos and a big cookie! I said that anything's possible. What's the dyno sheet look like? Where is this setup at on the compressor map?

 

[drivemusicnow]

Just becasue you don't get it doesn't mean that nothing is there. I'm calculating heat loss. What else is there with respect to compressor efficiency? Come on now.

Who cares about bends, surface friction losses, heat conduction, pressure loss. I'm saying, if you run the same setup but different compressor wheels, if both flow enough meet your engine's demand; then compressor efficiency is negledgable. I've done it. If you run a better setup (lower pressure loss across the IC, smother piping, better flowing head, whatever) then you're not compairing aples to apple any more. Why would the original poster run a better setup for one turbo and not do the same for another?

If you plan on running a 60 lb/min capable setup. Then BOTH compressor wheels discussed will be fine and be w/in a few hp of each other. It would be better for one to bother himself w/ the other end of the turbo.


So what? I said that anything's possible. What's the dyno sheet look like? Where is this setup at on the compressor map?

I understand the point saying that the two compressors are not going to be very different at all on the same setup, however posting a bullshit formula to prove this doesn't sit well with me. And all of those things do effect the end result because you argue that a more efficient intercooler will eliminate "virtually all" difference between the two, however a more efficient intercooler has more pressure loss, which thus means that you are ACTUALLY operating on a different area of the compressor map.

The rest all do the same thing, however are more minor.

The car hasn't been to a dyno that I know of. Recently ran a mid 10 second pass though. Which, to me, is insane for pump gas and a supposedly 52 lbs/minute compressor.

 

[dsm-onster]

I understand the point saying that the two compressors are not going to be very different at all on the same setup, however posting a bullshit formula to prove this doesn't sit well with me. And all of those things do effect the end result because you argue that a more efficient intercooler will eliminate "virtually all" difference between the two, however a more efficient intercooler has more pressure loss, which thus means that you are ACTUALLY operating on a different area of the compressor map.

And i'm saying that operating at one end of the map or the other is not as important as many think! So what? as long as you're not in surge or over spinning the wheel, compressor efficiency has less to do w/ performance than one would expect.

So what if it causes a turbo to have to spin a little faster to match the same boost because of pressure loss across the intercooler. IT IS A BETTER INTERCOOLER! It will negate any effect of compressor efficiency so long as the compressor can supply the air.

'What sits w/ you' is not what this guy asked. So PM me about it. We can beat each other to death w/ logs (data or literally ). This "formula" comes straight from the adabiatic process which dictates heat in our intake streams. Why bother building if you're not going to at least sit down and calculate the costs.

The car hasn't been to a dyno that I know of. Recently ran a mid 10 second pass though. Which, to me, is insane for pump gas and a supposedly 52 lbs/minute compressor.

Congratulations . OBVIOUSLY, compressor efficiency has less to do w/ performance than one would expect! Thanx for proving the formula, just like I have.

 

[BrokenTsi]

Hey broken, nice work there. Can you tell me a bit about daily driving with your 3082r, with pump gas, spool and how the power comes on? Ive had some concearns after speaking with some shop pro's about the 3082r, they say it actually feels lazy compared to a straight 35r because of the missmatched wheals. Just curious what your findings are with this combination, and why the change? Lastly what A/R are you using, mine is .82.

Im using the .82 a/r. 3082r is a dream on spool. Power comes hard and on pump gas. Its the first turbo ive actually liked. If these guys are saying its lazy, then they are doing something wrong for sure. I was breaking tires loose in every gear going down the track. 3082r spools pretty damn fast. The reason I want to change, is because I want to go faster of course. But I'll bet anything, that with better tires and a new clutch, I'll do 10.50's @ 133+ all day on this turbo.

 

[Slippi84]

Everything your saying man makes perfect sense especialy when talking about the intercooler negating the effecieny diffrences between two turo's but I'm not talking graphs and theories. Like the other guy said putting up graphs and froumlas does not prove anything except the logic behind your thinking. On paper the 60-1 is lacking turbo it just doesn't move anyone on paper but in real life it is more then capable of making big power. Real world is the X factor to every debate like this. While I will not do this turbo vs that turbo forever as this is mearly a diffrence in opinion I will say I used to have a 60-1 a 50 trim 14b and now run a gt14 from sbr and from my experience the 60-1 is not good on pump and true at the same psi say 25 it wouldn't be that much diffrent then my gt14 but you don't realise the tuning diffrences needed to make a 60-1 run at 25psi without knocking. If I can find someone with a red I would throw it on and leave my tune the same and show you how bad a car would knock with a tune for a more effecient turbo and the same psi just swapped.

 

[dsm-onster]

If I can find someone with a red I would throw it on and leave my tune the same and show you how bad a car would knock with a tune for a more effecient turbo and the same psi just swapped.

But you can't and it won't be different even if you did.

See, I'm not quoting formula to flop my nuts around. I didn't discover this. And, I understand that nothing applies unless there is proof. I only quote the adabiatic formulas *after* I've seen this apply on my own cars. I've seen the same results. Same airflow. same knock count. Again taking about the whole turbo doesn't count. We have to talk about ONLY the compressor wheel here for a fair view. It really comtradicts popular belief. But so have all physical concepts at some point.

Again I agree w/ you. The X factor is real life. In real life, my 18G didn't pull any harder, didn't log any more airflow, and was just as prone to knock when advancing the timing any more; all at the same psi as the small 16G. Again i could put the screws to my setup and give it more psi or consequentially more flow. But, THAT was my increase in airflow. Who knows maybe the small 16G is the most underrated turbo in the world .

 

[GVR4592]

The turbo is rated to 65lbs/min just cause the map only shows it going to 62lbs doesn't mean that's it's rating check anyone's sight who sells any form of teh gt35r it's rated to 650hp(65lbs/min) the most obvious example of this theory is the FP3065 which is the gt30 wheel rated to 65lbs/min and is rated to 650hp

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...duct_Code=NTDSMFP3065&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo

I believe Garrett changed the rating of the GT35R compressor wheel to 62 lbs/min and all of the retailers are going from old literature or they just don't see the point in changing the info on their sites.

The compressor map is the actual flow rating of the turbo. Every other turbo uses the rating on the compressor map, why would it be any different for the GT35R?

The 3065 uses a GT3082R CHRA, that's a GT35R compressor wheel and a GT30R turbine wheel, not a GT30 compressor wheel.

 

[Slippi84]

gt35r("62"lbs/min) > my gt14("65"lbs/min)

So bottom line flow ratings can be missleading.

My suggestion I made to go with the gt35r over the 60-1 for pump gas and just overall better performance was based on the only thing that matters to me and that can be seen at the links below.

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/dynosheets.php



http://dsmtuners.com/forums/timeslips.php


Just in case your wondering I have seen it first hand too but it's just easier to direct someone to those links then get them to come around here and see for themselfs.

 

[dsm-onster]

Looking at what's popular can be misleading. Not many guys w/ 60-1 compressor wheels push their compressors to 30+ psi. NOONE believes that compressor efficiency has only a small effect on aircharge temps. The unit of boost in psi has much more effect. But, it's not a popular belief.

Neither link shows which is better on pump gas. Neither link shows, where pushing the limits of the compressor, one will need to run much more octane than on a compressor w/ a wheel in the middle of it's compressor efficiency island. I've looked over those links day and night (especially the FWD guys). Both wheels flow more than this guy is after. I've seen many a good t4 60-1 log 60 lbs/min. 5 lbs/min or less over that is just luxury. If the original poster is going to quibble over that small a flow difference on this scale of compressor flow, then he needs to re-evaluate is options.

 

[Slippi84]

Looking at what's popular can be misleading. Not many guys w/ 60-1 compressor wheels push their compressors to 30+ psi. NOONE believes that compressor efficiency has only a small effect on aircharge temps. The unit of boost in psi has much more effect. But, it's not a popular belief.

Neither link shows which is better on pump gas. Neither link shows, where pushing the limits of the compressor, one will need to run much more octane than on a compressor w/ a wheel in the middle of it's compressor efficiency island. I've looked over those links day and night (especially the FWD guys). Both wheels flow more than this guy is after. I've seen many a good t4 60-1 log 60 lbs/min. 5 lbs/min or less over that is just luxury. If the original poster is going to quibble over that small a flow difference on this scale of compressor flow, then he needs to re-evaluate is options.

I agree a "t4 60-1" is in the same league as a gt35r but that thing won't spool for crap on a non stroker 4g63. a bolt on gt35r can flow what i'm talking about and spool night and day faster which to me makes it a no brianer but again just my opinion.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Not to tangent, but I'd found the following direct compare of WHP for a GT35R and GT30R w/.82AR housing and same exact setup (albeit on a Honda) which I found pretty cool (bold is GT30R non-bold is GT35R)

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[dsm-onster]

I agree a "t4 60-1" is in the same league as a gt35r but that thing won't spool for crap on a non stroker 4g63. a bolt on gt35r can flow what i'm talking about and spool night and day faster which to me makes it a no brianer but again just my opinion.

It's not just opinion. Whose gt35r spools night and day different? It either will or won't. If so I'll swap to a gt35r instead of dropping in my m62 for a twin-charged setup. A 60-1 w/ an o or p trim turbine will either spool on a 2.0 or won't. Even garrett states only a 15% increase in response for the same compressor wheel (that is for a 56 trim which is a larger diameter compressor wheel).

BTW, I've seen a stage 5 t3 wheel flow 60 lbs/min. What's the spool of a typical t3 stage5 setup?

 

[dsm-onster]

Not to tangent, but I'd found the following direct compare of WHP for a GT35R and GT30R w/.82AR housing and same exact setup (albeit on a Honda) which I found pretty cool (bold is GT30R non-bold is GT35R)

Good stuff! Thanx. This shows that garrett is right in giving the gt35r compressor a 62 lb/min flow number (based on 10.5 hp/lb/min).

 

[Steve93Talon]

Not to tangent, but I'd found the following direct compare of WHP for a GT35R and GT30R w/.82AR housing and same exact setup (albeit on a Honda) which I found pretty cool (bold is GT30R non-bold is GT35R)

I wonder which "GT30R" they're running. based on the power and their statement that it's rated at 500hp, I'd guess it's a 3076R. Nice numbers on both turbos and nice torque for a Honda.

 

[Slippi84]

Good stuff! Thanx. This shows that garrett is right in giving the gt35r compressor a 62 lb/min flow number (based on 10.5 hp/lb/min).

Yes but where and how did 10.5hp/lb/min become the standard I was always told 1lb/min=10hp but anyway not really all that important as we already showed flow ratings to not be the end to all.

Point being my opinion is on which turbo will be better for the OP for pump gas power given his car and goals. He doesn't have some super effeicent fmic that iwll negate the kinda of diffrence in compressor effecieny needed to make the two similar and even if he did changing from a hotside that is bolt on to even a stage 5 t3 will show slower spool not to mention that bolt on housing turbo is duall BB while the stage 5 t3 is regular journal bearing. On top of this you yourself said not go by the norm or even that the dyno and 1/4mile top list which by the way both showed 0 60-1's and atleats one gt35r on both list.


And I think you are seriously overlooking the big picture with the graph he just posted. Look at the horse power diffrence on the same car same setup. to me that looks like 575hp vs 650hp max. Take a look at spool as well. it took a smaller suall bb turbo to spool fatser and even then 500rpms faster which for 75 more whp i think is a pretty good trade off. Not to mention on a 2.0 vs a 1.6 or w/e honda engine it was you can make same power with smaller hotside due to more displacment.

 

[Steve93Talon]

and even if he did changing from a hotside that is bolt on to even a stage 5 t3 will show slower spool not to mention that bolt on housing turbo is duall BB while the stage 5 t3 is regular journal bearing.

He's not on a bolt-on hotside, he's already runnning a T3 4 bolt GT housing. I'd leave it alone and throw some meth injection on it myself.

 

[Slippi84]

He's not on a bolt-on hotside, he's already runnning a T3 4 bolt GT housing. I'd leave it alone and throw some meth injection on it myself.

I know i'm just showing teh comparison between the two turbos depending on diffrent hotsides. ie: bolt on gt35r(bolt on) > 60-1(bolt on) for both spool and power while gt35r(bolt on) = 60-1(stage5 t3 or t4) for power but still gt35r(bolt on) > 60-1(stage5 t3 or t4) for spool