What's the deal with PTE 360* Thrust Plates?

[We're on Boost]

You do know that PTE lost their Garrett distributorship well over a year ago, right? So, I'm pretty sure they aren't using Garrett parts anymore. They are most likely using cheap Asian stuff.

This is what I would have figured. I had a phone conversation with Jeremy at PTE on July 17, 2008. Yup a year and a half ago. We talked about the 5457 which was pretty new at the time. He told me none of the parts in the turbo were Garrett. Specifically he said the compressor and turbine wheels and the bearings were PTE, not Garrett. No my memory is not that good I'm reading this from my phone notes that I wrote down.
Anyway, this is interesting stuff and I have to wonder how good the newest PTE turbos are and wonder about their "air-cooled" ceramic ball bearing system and their seals.
As far as Asian made stuff, China, Taiwan, they can make good parts. But the design has to be good and I don't know who does the engineering for PTE.

 

[JusMX141]

Yup a year and a half ago. We talked about the 5457 which was pretty new at the time. He told me none of the parts in the turbo were Garrett. Specifically he said the compressor and turbine wheels and the bearings were PTE, not Garrett.

That would hold up if all of the turbos that have failed on my customers were built after that date....in this case, only the last turbo, the 5252, had a build date after PTE and Garrett fell out.

The 6152S, 6169SP, and 6031E described above were all built in 2005 and 2006, and used all Garrett parts.

 

[We're on Boost]

The 6152S, 6169SP, and 6031E described above were all built in 2005 and 2006, and used all Garrett parts.

This would be consistent with what Jeremy told me, since these were built earlier when everybody is agreed that PTE turbos used Garrett parts.

the last turbo, the 5252, had a build date after PTE and Garrett fell out.

This 5252 however, with July 2009 on the backplate, looks funny. I mean if it was first built in 2009 from Garrett parts, then it disagrees with what Jeremy said. But it says "repair" by the date. Does that mean it was "repaired" by PTE in July 2009?
The PT5252 is an older model. I see it listed in the 2006 PTE catalog which I still have a copy of. But I'm not so sure it is in the 2007 and newer catalogs - I see "5252" in those catalogs only as a Buick turbo. I'm thinking either PTE still builds their older models like this with Garrett parts, or else this 5252 was actually built a few years ago and then repaired on that July 2009 date by PTE.

 

[JusMX141]

Since this thread has mostly become a Precision-based thrust failure thread instead of just Garrett (even though the turbos I'm showing all have Garrett thrust hardware), why not contribute another?

I just took this baby out of the box. Here we have a PTE SCM6152E with- you guessed it....around 1200 miles on it. This turbo began life as a SCM5252E but was sent to PTE for a warranty service at which time it was upgraded to the GT40 (SC61) compressor wheel. This turbo never even saw above 18psi it's entire life with the SC61 compressor on it.

As you can see from the shaft play, I'm expecting some major carnage when I get inside this beast.

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I'll post pics of the internals once it's torn down.

 

[We're on Boost]

I just found some info that agrees with the idea that PTE is still using Garrett parts in their latest turbo models, even though they say they aren't.
This is from user Supermech21 in the srt4 forums. He just recently bought a brand new PTE 5557 with the "air cooled" ball bearing center section. Today he posted a couple pics of the center section that pretty clearly show the "A" which looks to me like the Garrett "A" logo that is kind of bent over to the right on top. Here's his pics. What do you think Justin?

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This turbo was bought new just a few weeks ago.
The second pic especially shows the "wind blown" bent A.
Here's a link to that thread, this topic starts in post #733. I'm Talonboost over there:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f169/billet-precision-turbocharger-info-550198/index49.html#post8375204

 

[JusMX141]

Definitely looks like a Garrett housing or a good Chinese copy, although the center housing is probably the least expensive part of the turbo so it could be that PTE is still buying Garrett center housings but not Garrett wheels at this point.

The Billet compressors PTE uses are definitely not Garrett-made (or at least not marked as such), leaving their country of origin up in the air...like these, for example:

Billet Compressor Wheel (Machined Compressor Wheel)




Here's some interesting info on Billet wheels, straight from Garrett:

TurboByGarrett.com - Race Updates

 

[We're on Boost]

For anybody wondering how a bent-over A has anything to do with Garrett, it is called the "flying A" logo. Here is a cool bit of history from the Honeywell Logo archive:

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[We're on Boost]

And from what I've been reading lately, the flying A logo isn't the only thing that is history. The spirit that made Garrett a company that Americans could be proud of, that's going to be history too, or already is. Bummer. Just like Warren Buffet said a few years ago, "If it's true that there is a war between the classes, then it's clear that the upper class is winning".

 

[constant_proj21]

Well with Garrett products being recently outsourced to china, could the recent decline in quality explain these failures?

 

[We're on Boost]

Well with Garrett products being recently outsourced to china, could the recent decline in quality explain these failures?

Well that's kind of what I was refering to. But the thrust bearing problem might not be from poor manufacturing, it might be due to bad engineering design, or some of both. The way I read it, Garrett manufacturing was mostly moved out of the country a few years ago, whereas the engineering is in the process of being transfered or eliminated, or whatever the heck they are doing with it, right now.
If you haven't seen the thread in nasioc yet, take a look, or maybe not. I was depressed for 2 days after reading it. I'm an engineer and I've seen too much of this style of management. I really don't like it.

Garrett Turbos...The end of a quality product - NASIOC

As for the assembly quality of the newest precision turbos, I've been following that in the SRT4 forum mostly. So far I've seen about 2 guys report that their brand new turbo came with housing bolts that were loose. One of them actually fell apart while running on the car which of course destroyed the turbo. A third guy there said he ordered one with ball bearings and the shaft didn't turn freely as if the bearings were adjusted too tight or something. Lots of other srt guys with them though who are totally enthusiastic so far. There are some people saying that the ball bearings are actually really good. AMS for example sells only the ball bearing units - they are not at all interested in the plain bearing ones. That might tell you something.

 

[rstchris]

So I bought a used PTE sc50 on ebay. I paid going rate for a good used turbo. It had almost no shaft play as described. I ran it for about fifty miles and it $h** the bed. I lost a BS bearing and got lots of glitter so I did the bse and flushed/cleaned as best I could. My question is, Did the seemingly new turbo die from the metal shavings or cause it's a PTE? It don't looked cooked but did wear out bearings and thrust plate. I need a good rebuild kit for it too, not ebay stuff. Who sells them? I don't mean to highjack but since it's the topic!

 

[JusMX141]

Did the seemingly new turbo die from the metal shavings or cause it's a PTE?

Probably a little of both. If the bearings didn't appear to be "sandblasted" and looked smooth, and the whole center housing was free of metal, I'd blame the turbo more than the engine.

I need a rebuild kit for it too, not ebay stuff. Who sells them?

Probably someone like G-Pop Shop can help you out; you can expect to pay $150ish shipped for a kit that is complete with the 360* thrust plate and hardware.

 

[rstchris]

Thanks, I am sending the wheels to Limit Eng. today for balancing. I don't know weather I should rebuild and run it or sell it?

Wheels are out, has anyone done a rebuild on one of theese and had good luck? If I put the 360* stainless thrust plate in there should I expect it to die again quick?

Just thought I would update, I got the wheels back from limit, they looked brand new. I got a rebuild kit with genuine garrett parts, 360* thrust plate with oil provisions. Nice kit. I slapped it together and putted a few blocks, checked for play and it was minimal. Then I ran 13psi about one full pass and putted home, check for play again. It seems to have some side play but no thrust play at all. I'm thinking this would be normal from the polishing they did on the shaft making slightly more clearance. I will update if the status on this thing changes. I also scrapped the oil feed from the head and went with a -4 from the ofh and a 075 restrictor.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Where do you get your T3 rebuild kits Jusmx141?

 

[JusMX141]

Turbo shop in Cali most of the time. They sell a 360* rebuild kit which has the thrust washer designed backwards of a standard Garrett washer and more like a Mitsu or Holset design, where the spacer is part of the thrust washer instead of the compressor seal collar. It's a MUCH more durable design, proven by the abuse I've seen MHI and Holset turbos take without a single cracked / broken thrust washer.

 

[JusMX141]

The problem now exists for 50-trim owners, too.

Here's what I found when I tore down member SummitAWD's 5031E the other day:

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[rstchris]

Hey! That's what I blew up. I have been beating on my 5027 and no play yet since the rebuild and balance. It has seen 24psi about 10 passes.

 

[donniekak]

I'm currently finishing up a full build. I will be leaving my evo3 on just to see how well i can stack up against other full built 16g cars. I was debating on going to a 50 trim class turbo after the 16g to possibly dip into the low 11's, high 10's. I have a holset hx35 in my garage, but haven't really seen much come out of them. I have also been thinking of one of the garrett hybrid 50 trim turbo's, until now. Probably going to go with a td06 20g, or one of the fp 30r variants.

 

[We're on Boost]

Probably going to go with a td06 20g, or one of the fp 30r variants.

Hmm, where would you buy a new td06 20g these days? I haven't seen shops listing them lately.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Think you could pm me there web address / contact info?

Turbo shop in Cali most of the time. They sell a 360* rebuild kit which has the thrust washer designed backwards of a standard Garrett washer and more like a Mitsu or Holset design, where the spacer is part of the thrust washer instead of the compressor seal collar. It's a MUCH more durable design, proven by the abuse I've seen MHI and Holset turbos take without a single cracked / broken thrust washer.

 

[JusMX141]

You guys will enjoy this one.

I rebuilt a SC5031E for a local customer last night. The turbo had been bought originally from PTE and failed in a short time, then it was serviced / repaired toward the end of last year. After it was serviced, the customer reinstalled the turbo and took it for a drive....the very first time he made boost, the turbo stopped spinning completely. It was locked solid. He brought it to me figuring PTE would only f*ck it up again. Guess what I found?

PTE never screwed the thrust plate down.

The whole rotating assembly walked toward the compressor side, and the compressor seal collar welded itself to the compressor backplate. All of the thrust hardware was junk- luckily the assembly didn't move far enough to cause wheel damage.


Way to go on the assembly process, PTE! Does this put PTE turbos behind the ones on eBay assembled by the 5-year-old Chinese girls?

 

[We're on Boost]

Jus, or anybody who knows, I would like to know a little more about how the turbo thrust bearings are made, since I've never had a good look at one. Here is a picture that Justin posted a while back in the Holset 7 thread, of a Holset thrust bearing.

The bearing faces I'm pointing to with arrows - are they flat planar faces all parallel to each other? Or are they actually very shallow ramps? If they are ramps, which end is the high end of the ramp? Is the high end where I'm pointing with the red arrow or the yellow arrow?

If they are ramps, what do you suppose the total ramp height is on a brand new part with no wear? I know this would be hard to measure because the ramps I'm thinking would only be about .001 inches high. But you could probably see approx if you laid like a socket on it or something. I'm not talking about the oil grooves at all. Just the bearing faces.

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[motomattxxx]

They are'nt ramps, just flat bearing surfaces.

 

[TurboDSM90]

Some pics of my failed PTE 6262. I guess I saved it just in time as the thrust bearing had just one crack in it. No blueing on the shaft, but a little bit of scoring on the shaft from the thrust washer. Im gonna see if I can polish it with something. Good ol PTE

Notice the busted thrust washer.

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[JusMX141]

No blueing on the shaft, but a little bit of scoring on the shaft from the thrust washer. Im gonna see if I can polish it with something.

Nothing like polishing a turd.