Keep on blowing thrust plates!

[blackrosenova40]

I bought an Fp green from a gentleman that told me he rebuilt it and had it professionally balanced. Well he told me to put the oil feed from the filter housing to the turbo, otherwise he wouldnt warranty it. Well I did with a 4 an line and it smoked really bad as I suspected. I switched it to the head and it helped but it ended up having so much in/out play it wrecked the compressor wheel.

Brought it back to the gentleman, tried to blame me for using the head as an oil source. He fixed it anyway using a new wheel. He told me to try the filter housing again and stop driving it if it starts to blow smoke again. Well I installed it and it started smoking within 20 miles and it already had a good amount of shaft play (In/Out). Brought it to him again, this time he replaced the exhaust wheel, center section, and thrust plate.

This time I decided to do it my way. I installed a .078 restrictor on the feed line, using the oil filter housing. The turbo lasted alot longer, but now it has good in/out play and is smokin again.

I have a turbosmart megasonic blow off valve with a 6 an vaccum line ot it so its not the blow off valve. My oil pressure is about 20 psi at idle and 75-80 at 8000 rpm.

Any ideas why I keep blowing thrust plates?

Oh and i made my own custom 12 an oil drain line.

 

[JusMX141]

Sometimes when companies put giant compressor wheels on turbos that were meant to have smaller wheels on them, it puts too much load on parts that just can't support it.


Perhaps you should try an upgraded thrust plate with two oiling holes and a larger thrust washer, like this one from Kamak:

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Brought it back to the gentleman, tried to blame me for using the head as an oil source.

A load of BS. The journal bearings would fail WAY before the thrust plate if the turbo wasn't getting enough oil.

I've had 20G's wear thrust plates out using the filter housing as the oil source, too...it makes no difference. I switched to the thrust plate shown above and the problem was solved.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Thank you for the suggestion. Where is a good place to buy these? Also it is a garrett center section, will this thrust plate work?

I will remove the trust plate and take some pics.

Also I even think feeding from the head would still provide too much oil with a 4 an line as the center section had no restictor built in like a mhi unit.

Also I dont remember seeing him put a thrust washer in there..... maybe im forgetting.

Thanks -Chad

 

[JusMX141]

Where is a good place to buy these?

Mitsubishi TD05H/TD06 Rebuild Kits

Also it is a garrett center section, will this thrust plate work?

Ummm....if your turbo has a Garrett center section, then it's NOT a FP Green.

A FP Green is a 20G turbo that has been modified to accept a 50-trim Garrett compressor wheel.

I will remove the trust plate and take some pics.

That will help set the record straight.

Also I even think feeding from the head would still provide too much oil with a 4 an line as the center section had no restictor built in like a mhi unit.

Don't confuse pressure with volume. The head should still provide the same volume as the filter housing, but at a much lower pressure....which can be fatal for some types of turbochargers.

Also I dont remember seeing him put a thrust washer in there..... maybe im forgetting.

There better be one, or else we've just found out why your turbo keeps dying.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Im not confusing pressure with volume, I still think it would get too much volume with no restrictor.

 

[blackrosenova40]

It definitly is a T3 center section. Its some kinda hybrid turbo with a dsm hot side. After the compressor wheel was wrecked the first time he put a scm61 wheel on he said with a differant compressor housing.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Heres the pics as promised, let know know what you think!

Thanks -Chad

 

[JusMX141]

A 61mm compressor is far too large to still be using a 270* thrust plate with the spring retainer- especially if you're running any amount of boost.

Does this guy know what he's doing, or does he just keep throwing parts at your turbo hoping it will eventually stop failing?

 

[gstryyder]

HoLY ###iNN NutS man... turbo done for. guy screwed you. i am sorry to hear that. time to go get another turbo..

 

[blackrosenova40]

A 61mm compressor is far too large to still be using a 270* thrust plate with the spring retainer- especially if you're running any amount of boost.

Does this guy know what he's doing, or does he just keep throwing parts at your turbo hoping it will eventually stop failing?

Unfortunately you are correct jusmx141. It did seem he kept throwing parts at it. Hopefully it didn't shell my motor out. I met this guy of of my local dsm website called mitsustyle.com. Each time he tried to blame me for for its problems. So now I decided to leave him out of the loop and figure it out myself. Never tore apart a turbocharger before. Wish i had in the past, I would have never dealt with this guy. Now i dont know where to go with this. I obviously need a new turbocharger as long as my motor isnt shelled.

I started with 20 psi, tuned my car for it. then I bumped it up to 30-32 and started tuning that. Running e85 on my 2.4 I built this spring.

 

[JusMX141]

32psi with a 270* thrust plate is where your problem lies. Too much rotational mass and pull to be supported by such a weak thrust system. If you had a 360* plate in your hands to compare you'd see that the oiling holes are much larger, and the thrust collar is supported for the entire radius.

Boost does strange things to turbos- it loads the shaft outward (in the direction of the compressor wheel) and upward. If your thrust system isn't built to take this abuse, the turbo will quickly fail. This is the reason a T25 can't take boost in excess of 15psi for a very long period of time.

You should also not be feeding a journal-bearing turbo from the head with that boost pressure due to the amount of shaft and thrust loads, the additional oil pressure would be welcome in keeping the journals full and the shaft floating. I'd still recommend a restrictor to prevent over-oiling the turbo using the filter housing as the oil source.

Given the amount of damage at this point you're better off buying a new CHRA or a complete new turbo, unfortunately.

 

[blackrosenova40]

32psi with a 270* thrust plate is where your problem lies. Too much rotational mass and pull to be supported by such a weak thrust system. If you had a 360* plate in your hands to compare you'd see that the oiling holes are much larger, and the thrust collar is supported for the entire radius.

Boost does strange things to turbos- it loads the shaft outward (in the direction of the compressor wheel) and upward. If your thrust system isn't built to take this abuse, the turbo will quickly fail. This is the reason a T25 can't take boost in excess of 15psi for a very long period of time.

You should also not be feeding a journal-bearing turbo from the head with that boost pressure due to the amount of shaft and thrust loads, the additional oil pressure would be welcome in keeping the journals full and the shaft floating. I'd still recommend a restrictor to prevent over-oiling the turbo using the filter housing as the oil source.

Given the amount of damage at this point you're better off buying a new CHRA or a complete new turbo, unfortunately.

I only had it at the head once, and that was right before the first failure. I had it at the filter housing as the guy told me to do, and it blew smoke, then i put it to the cylinder head.

2nd round, had it at the oil filter housing as instructed by the guy. He told me to stop immediately if it starts to smoke. It did within 20 mile.

3rd time after he put it back together, I did it my way with a .078 restrictor at the oil filter housing. The pics above are after this.

 

[blackrosenova40]

A 61mm compressor is far too large to still be using a 270* thrust plate with the spring retainer- especially if you're running any amount of boost.

Does this guy know what he's doing, or does he just keep throwing parts at your turbo hoping it will eventually stop failing?

So what thrust plate system should it of had? Have any links to maybe a rebuild kit that would have this? Im not gonna buy it as my turbo is shelled, I just wanna see what it looks like.

 

[blackrosenova40]

32psi with a 270* thrust plate is where your problem lies. Too much rotational mass and pull to be supported by such a weak thrust system. If you had a 360* plate in your hands to compare you'd see that the oiling holes are much larger, and the thrust collar is supported for the entire radius.

Boost does strange things to turbos- it loads the shaft outward (in the direction of the compressor wheel) and upward. If your thrust system isn't built to take this abuse, the turbo will quickly fail. This is the reason a T25 can't take boost in excess of 15psi for a very long period of time.

You should also not be feeding a journal-bearing turbo from the head with that boost pressure due to the amount of shaft and thrust loads, the additional oil pressure would be welcome in keeping the journals full and the shaft floating. I'd still recommend a restrictor to prevent over-oiling the turbo using the filter housing as the oil source.

Given the amount of damage at this point you're better off buying a new CHRA or a complete new turbo, unfortunately.

I completely understand how thrust loads work. What I didnt understand was the thrust system handling it correctly, or if it was something else. Obviosly we know the answer.

 

[JusMX141]

So what thrust plate system should it of had? Have any links to maybe a rebuild kit that would have this? Im not gonna buy it as my turbo is shelled, I just wanna see what it looks like.

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Actually, if you're planning on running 30+psi regularly, you should look to something other than a Garrett-based journal bearing turbo.

 

[blackrosenova40]

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Actually, if you're planning on running 30+psi regularly, you should look to something other than a Garrett-based journal bearing turbo.

Garrett ball bearing perhaps?

 

[blackrosenova40]

Hes claiming it could be my restrictive air filter putting too much load on the thrust bearing.

I use this filter with a 4 inch Fp intake

K&N RU-2520 $38.99 - Universal Air Filters, Universal Rubber Filter

Any thoughts?

 

[JusMX141]

Garrett ball bearing perhaps?

Ball bearing turbos are tough as nails- just make sure they get a clean oil supply. Feed from the head with a .030" restrictor and an inline filter to keep engine contaminants from destroying the turbo.

Hes claiming it could be my restrictive air filter putting too much load on the thrust bearing.

I use this filter with a 4 inch Fp intake

K&N RU-2520 $38.99 - Universal Air Filters, Universal Rubber Filter

Any thoughts?

A regular K&N is not going to provide enough restriction to damage your turbo. You could have run your turbo without an air filter and it would've done the same thing...a 270* T3 thrust plate just cannot take the loads of a compressor wheel as big as a GT35R will dish out at high boost.

These companies keep putting bigger and bigger wheels on the T3 center housing and running these turbos at high boost without ever thinking that eventually something has to give way.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Ball bearing turbos are tough as nails- just make sure they get a clean oil supply. Feed from the head with a .030" restrictor and an inline filter to keep engine contaminants from destroying the turbo.


A regular K&N is not going to provide enough restriction to damage your turbo. You could have run your turbo without an air filter and it would've done the same thing...a 270* T3 thrust plate just cannot take the loads of a compressor wheel as big as a GT35R will dish out at high boost.

These companies keep putting bigger and bigger wheels on the T3 center housing and running these turbos at high boost without ever thinking that eventually something has to give way.

Kinda what I figured. I am a diesel technition and I see gravel trucks come in all the time with completely plugged filters. Granted they are bigger filters but they are alot of the times completey plugged causing a big vaccum on the intake system. These things run 30-40 psi all day long and rarely see them blown, and thats on an inline 6 8.3 liters or better!

 

[blackrosenova40]

Ball bearing turbos are tough as nails- just make sure they get a clean oil supply. Feed from the head with a .030" restrictor and an inline filter to keep engine contaminants from destroying the turbo.


A regular K&N is not going to provide enough restriction to damage your turbo. You could have run your turbo without an air filter and it would've done the same thing...a 270* T3 thrust plate just cannot take the loads of a compressor wheel as big as a GT35R will dish out at high boost.

These companies keep putting bigger and bigger wheels on the T3 center housing and running these turbos at high boost without ever thinking that eventually something has to give way.

He said hes gonna take my center section and drill it out to accept a 360 degree thrust bearing. He says he doesnt think its gonna help. Is this a legite practice?

Hes on this site, and I know you have seen this thread, I wish you would respond on here!

 

[JusMX141]

He said hes gonna take my center section and drill it out to accept a 360 degree thrust bearing. He says he doesnt think its gonna help. Is this a legite practice?

...and do what for a compressor wheel, cover, and backplate? Yours are all trashed....there's no getting around that. I can't even see a visibly-defined turbine seal lip on your turbine wheel in the one photo, so it's probably junk too.

How long are you going to keep bandaging this thing together and expect it to give you good service for many miles? Cut your losses, stop playing around with Garrett journal bearing turbos, and get something more reliable for the boost level you're looking to run. Hell a 16G would give you better service at this point.

 

[blackrosenova40]

...and do what for a compressor wheel and cover? Yours is trashed....there's no getting around that. I can't even see a visible turbine seal lip on your turbine wheel, so it's probably junk too.

How long are you going to keep bandaging this thing together and expect it to give you good service for many miles? Cut your losses, stop playing around with Garrett journal bearing turbos, and get something more reliable for the boost level you're looking to run. Hell a 16G would give you better service at this point.

Is it really the problem bieng a garrett journal turbo? The turbine shaft's journal look perfect, and so do the bearings.

He actually was gonna put a new compressor wheel and compressor cover on and replace everything that needs replacement.

 

[JusMX141]

Do what you want- I'd imagine as long as you're getting the turbo repaired for free each time there's no shame in the matter, but even the 360* plates have a tough time holding up to the 61mm compressor:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/344931-whats-deal-garrett-t3-thrust-plates.html

 

[blackrosenova40]

Do what you want- I'd imagine as long as you're getting the turbo repaired for free each time there's no shame in the matter, but even the 360* plates have a tough time holding up to the 61mm compressor:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/344931-whats-deal-garrett-t3-thrust-plates.html

I like turboglenn's idea on measuring oil flow to the turbo, I wonder how I could find this specification?

 

[blackrosenova40]

I sent this email to a bunch of Garrets vendors, lets see what happens.

The email I sent

Hi, I have a turbocharger with a T3 journal bearing center section and I searched Garretts site and it lead me to this email to ask for tech support if I have a question.

My question is, I am feeding this turbo from my oil filter housing which as 20 psi idle and 80 psi at 8000 rpm. What size restrictor should I use to reduce the flow to where it should be?


To these vendors
TurboByGarrett.com - Garrett Performance Distributors