What lb/min are you flowing on pump & bigger turbos

[andymoraitis]

I'm not doubting you dont have it tuned well but wouldn't it be good to have something to tweak the settings with?

Sure it would, but I like things simple. I'd love to have Link, but as a Mac user, I'm not going to spend gobs o' money on Link and a laptop to run it when I have a chip specifically made for my tune and what the motor likes. I don't run race gas so the ability to run 25 psi on 93 with 2 counts of knock on a large sidemount says something. One day when I have more cash, I'll step up the tuning, add a wideband and have at it, but for now it works well and very seamlessly.

I do agree it would be great to have more tuning legroom than I have but I've been very successful with what I've had to work with thus far.

 

[nanokpsi]

I'm not doubting you dont have it tuned well but wouldn't it be good to have something to tweak the settings with?


fulanititoo8198 the maft isn't always "that" inaccurate. There will always be a few things that dont transfer over exactically when it makes it's calculations to convert the signal so the ecu can read it. But for those of us not using it to tune and use it stictly as a mas it's not going to be that inaccurate. Especially not when you can dail it in with DSMLink and a map sensor or wbo2.

If it's not dialed in it it certainly off by a good margin. If the boost est/ and logged map are matching than it different obviously.

16g cars have logged 55 lb/min on the link forums (TomN)

 

[90blacktsiawd]

If it's not dialed in it it certainly off by a good margin. If the boost est/ and logged map are matching than it different obviously.

16g cars have logged 55 lb/min on the link forums (TomN)

No arguement that undailed in, or even worse, dailed in incorrectly could give you a wide margin of error. But frankly if your going to do something you should do right and have all things needed to properly run your hardware. A map sensor isn't all that expensive. But you'd need logging software that can read that input too. But you shouldn't be messing with tuning fuel without some way to see what's going on in the first place.


Andy, I know link is sorta costly. I bought my laptop just to use dsmlink so that added 500 to the price tag. But an older afc1 could be found for 100 or less if your lucky. That's more of what i was pointing to.

 

[andymoraitis]

Andy, I know link is sorta costly. I bought my laptop just to use dsmlink so that added 500 to the price tag. But an older afc1 could be found for 100 or less if your lucky. That's more of what i was pointing to.

Oh hell no. I'll never run an AFC. Since I have fixed timing and A/F maps, tuning fuel pressure, boost and octane are more than I need to get the results. Besides I don't have the clutch to make more power right now so believe me she's a very good street car and I'm more than happy with the performance.

I'll get there one day...soon....I hope!

 

[GVR4592]

Back when I had the big 16g I was around 38 lbs/min@24 psi. With the 60 trim I'm around 45 lbs/min at 24 psi.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Just about every 2 liter with a typical setup will be knock limited to 45-50 lbs/min. And 50 isn't very common. I ran so many different turbos I couldn't even list them, but the results were always the same on pump. Mathematically, a 2 liter at 100% VE, 8k rpm, and 30 psi will move 55 lbs/min. It works out to 50 lbs/min for 25 psi, which usually results in mid-upper 40s due to being less than 100% volumetrically efficient. The knock limitation always follows boost, not flow, in my experience.

With a 2.3 you have the advantage of more flow at the same boost. Flow is power (potential), boost is heat (knock). 20 psi will net you 50 lbs/min+ on a typicl setup, and you can run that all day long. I was able to run up to 60 lbs/min (MAFt calibrated in DSMlink), but I usually lowered it to 55. I nearly broke 120 on pump gas, but I only tried it once or twice the that whole season. Too busy trying to work out the kinks on race gas and higher boost unfortunately. I'm a big fan of pump gas power... Don't forget that the 10hp rule doesn't apply as well to pump gas runs, since we have to compromise on timing to make it work. I saw some HP potential quoted earlier...

On the EVO I am able to max out the stock turbo on pump gas. Boost tapers to ~21 psi, compressor flow limited. I set it to ~22. I see anywhere between 39 and 42 lbs/min depending on temp. This is enough for 110 mph trap speeds. Oddly enough, on race gas my best is 115, and typical is 113. The EVO motors are very knock resistant. I see an extra 2.5 mph from spiking to 24-28 psi (depending on temp) and tapering to the same 21, since it forces airflow/time to flatline at max capacity. That leave almost zero gain from increased timing. But unfotunately I still have to run race gas to do this because of the insane airflow/rev at torque peak.

[/ramble]

 

[nanokpsi]

I wondered when Kevin was going to chime in
I should have my logs of a 2.4 done up real purdy like ver soon.

 

[CanadianTSi]

I'm a big fan of pump gas power...

Amen to that

 

[zross1]

50 lb/min at 25psi on pump/methenol. 2Gmaf 13-14 deg of timing. 4800 ft elevation.

 

[spyderturbo007]

[/ramble]

No don't stop, I have learned a ton from reading your ramblings.

 

[MyBeatGSX]

I need a bigger turbo.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

No don't stop, I have learned a ton from reading your ramblings.

agreed

 

[Steve93Talon]

We've seen 53lb/min on a 60-1 bolt-on with pump/meth. The car went 11.5 @ 123 like that. Never logged it on straight pump though.

 

[Boostn4]

I see 49lb/m with spikes of 50lb/m at 24psi. Stock 7-bolt/1g head/1g Intake/ FP2's/ unhacked 2gmas
BB Garret 6076RS .63A/R -- TO4S cover.
This is on straight 93 and setting boost via autometer mech gauge, which is prob off a bit.

 

[blackGSX2g]

I can squeak 51-52lb/min out of my BB 5031 at a bit over 30psi (gauge only goes to 30, so guessing maybe 33), but I start getting surge. I'm currently running 30psi on pump 93 in my daily driver and hitting 49-50lb/min. MAFT is now calibrated via DSMLink; I used to see 54lb/min at 25psi until I calibrated it.

 

[pickens]

40 lbs/min. E16g @ 24psi. 91 California gas. 10.5 AFR -3* timing from 4500k up.

 

[tstkl]

40 lbs/min. E16g @ 24psi. 91 California gas. 10.5 AFR -3* timing from 4500k up.

between kevin's post and yours, I'm leaning towards the e316g. I want something that will make me piss my pants when I floor it at 80 on the freeway, but it just seems so much more practical to have that little bad boy toss me around at low speeds. Also, I'm less likely to kill myself with an evo than I am with a bigger turbo.

What I don't get is, how is it limited to ~50 lbs/min on pump. I understand that the static compression increases as boost does, but a larger turbo which flows more at lower psi's and doesn't turn into a hairdryer at higher boosts should increase flow (in my opinion). A set of nice cams and a high flowing ported head should only increase the efficency of the engine and result in higher airflow numbers. I bet you could see crazy numbers off pump gas if the car was designed with that in mind. Most people just don't waste their time with pump gas when they are running aftermarket cams, on a ported head, with a large turbo, at high boost, with a built bottom end. I only say built bottom end because I don't think the stock internals could survive the power that over 60 lbs/min would make. Also, something like propane injection or water, (which doesn't increase the octane rating of the fuel, but only cools the intake charge) would help drastically. I haven't found anyone using propane in the dsm world, but when i was into 3kgts, I found a couple site selling the pro-pain kit, which advertized sub zero temperatures due to the compressed combustable propane.

Then again, the static compression probably has a larger effect on it than the intake air temps.

 

[mastadogg2]

39lb/min~ (dsmlink logged , 2g maf calibrated)
evo3 16g / 20psi (gm3bar)
94octane
non aggressive timing curve max 15deg

currently looking into meth/water injection, and keeping
the supra sidemount i have.. any one running meth or water
here?

 

[90blacktsiawd]

39lb/min~ (dsmlink logged , 2g maf calibrated)
evo3 16g / 20psi (gm3bar)
94octane
non aggressive timing curve max 15deg

currently looking into meth/water injection, and keeping
the supra sidemount i have.. any one running meth or water
here?

I'm using water/meth injection.

 

[mastadogg2]

I'm using water/meth injection.

how do you like it? would this be a good kit to go with
http://tinyurl.com/e7pst

 

[90blacktsiawd]

how do you like it? would this be a good kit to go with
http://tinyurl.com/e7pst

Actually that looks like what i have. I bought the base cooling mist kit. Mine came with a resivour but im not sure if i got the 100psi pump or 150. I love it. I have it set to kick on at 16psi right now. More boost, cooler intake charge, cooler combustion chamber, steam clean your motor, more timing, leaner mixture, where do you go wrong with all of that from 1 small mod? I can have 21 degrees of timing at redline with the use of this kit. Well, when everything else if working properly

 

[Steve93Talon]

I'd love to have Link, but as a Mac user, I'm not going to spend gobs o' money on Link and a laptop to run it

DSMlink for Mac is already available for 2Gs and there's a working 1G version which will be released soon.


I've seen 45 lb/min on pump/meth at 25psi on a sleeper 20g.

 

[shleppy]

Are you sure that a 2 liter at 100% VE works out to just 55lbs at 8000 and 30psi? According to the engine data for turbo selection thread in the frequently answered Q's section it works out to around 62 lbs with an intake temp of 80. I know my friend dj dynoed 578whp at 28psi with a 2.0 at only 7145rpms, which according to your numbers for airflow would be impossible. He does have a well ported 1g head, 272 cams and a smim, but would that increase his VE that much? Granted that dyno run was on race fuel but that wouldn't increase his airflow, just his knock resistance. Also looking at the other post 25 psi at 8000 would new you 55 lbs airflow on a 100% VE 2.0 motor. I'm not trying to attack you but rather get clarification-what do you consider to be a typical setup and do you have an idea of how much different mods affect VE? Thanks in advance, shleppy

Just about every 2 liter with a typical setup will be knock limited to 45-50 lbs/min. And 50 isn't very common. I ran so many different turbos I couldn't even list them, but the results were always the same on pump. Mathematically, a 2 liter at 100% VE, 8k rpm, and 30 psi will move 55 lbs/min. It works out to 50 lbs/min for 25 psi, which usually results in mid-upper 40s due to being less than 100% volumetrically efficient. The knock limitation always follows boost, not flow, in my experience.

With a 2.3 you have the advantage of more flow at the same boost. Flow is power (potential), boost is heat (knock). 20 psi will net you 50 lbs/min+ on a typicl setup, and you can run that all day long. I was able to run up to 60 lbs/min (MAFt calibrated in DSMlink), but I usually lowered it to 55. I nearly broke 120 on pump gas, but I only tried it once or twice the that whole season. Too busy trying to work out the kinks on race gas and higher boost unfortunately. I'm a big fan of pump gas power... Don't forget that the 10hp rule doesn't apply as well to pump gas runs, since we have to compromise on timing to make it work. I saw some HP potential quoted earlier...

On the EVO I am able to max out the stock turbo on pump gas. Boost tapers to ~21 psi, compressor flow limited. I set it to ~22. I see anywhere between 39 and 42 lbs/min depending on temp. This is enough for 110 mph trap speeds. Oddly enough, on race gas my best is 115, and typical is 113. The EVO motors are very knock resistant. I see an extra 2.5 mph from spiking to 24-28 psi (depending on temp) and tapering to the same 21, since it forces airflow/time to flatline at max capacity. That leave almost zero gain from increased timing. But unfotunately I still have to run race gas to do this because of the insane airflow/rev at torque peak.

[/ramble]

 

[andymoraitis]

DSMlink for Mac is already available for 2Gs and there's a working 1G version which will be released soon.


I've seen 45 lb/min on pump/meth at 25psi on a sleeper 20g.

Finally. Some love for the Mac users. Thanks for the update as I had no idea there was a Mac version.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Finally. Some love for the Mac users. Thanks for the update as I had no idea there was a Mac version.

oh snap, a stable operating system and a good tuning program. The world is now perfect