What is the MOST I'd need a machine shop for?

[v8s_are_slow]

Okay, I have my engine out. Swapping to a 1g head. And a guy I work with asked why I don't put new rings on my pistons since I have it apart this much. So that got me to thinking, what all would I need a machine shop for anyway?

Head: If I have the head decked and have the springs checked out, couldn't I just swap the valve seals on my own, springs, etc. without the need of a machine shop? Should I have the valves cleaned up or whatever? I mean get a spring compressor and put the valves back in and throw the springs back on and call it a day? Not sure about things like valve ride height, etc. Guessing the valve seals are a simple pull them off and pop new ones on? Figure I can just have the machine shop clean and deck the head and I could do the rest.

Block: My block has 130k miles on it. I still see the cross hatch markings really well. There's no ridge at the top of the cylinders. Could I just rehone the cylinders and possibly throw in new pistons and rods? Or is there more to it than that? I'll be doing a balance shaft delete in the process. When do I HAVE to bore the cylinders? Thanks.

 

[g4ebguy90]

You bore the cyl's when it's out of spec.

So lets say stock bore is 3.465 inchs.

You take a dial bore gauge and measure 3.468 you are now 3 thousanths of an inch over spec. You would probaly want to bore it out, minimum of 010 over, most people go by .020.

If you only have maybe a .001 of an inch of wear I would just hone it.
But the only way to know is to measure.

 

[92AWDHX40]

While its out have everything replaced if its in poor shape. Your question is kinda all over the place as what you want to do, with your situation. Honing, cleaning, deck, a basic head job. Not much to it, do a simple engine rebuild and call it a day, pricing could vary depending on where to you go and what you actuaually have done. 1g head on your 2g, block will have to be worked on to make it fit, i saw a post on this earlier.

 

[juvi1624]

Most machine shops include disassembly and reassembly of the head in the price to machine/clean it. If you're throwing new valves in, you should probably get the seats redone, or at least lap the new valves. You should at least mic the cylinders before you just throw new pistons in. Do you know how to set ring gap? Oil clearances? If you're building it it may want to use ARP main studs, but then you should get it align honed. It really depends on how much you know how to do vs how much you need the machine shop to do.

 

[g4ebguy90]

Why don't he just use a 7 bolt 1g head. Use the same 11mm x 1.25 bolts...

 

[v8s_are_slow]

How is my post all over the place? I just wanna have the machine shop do as little as possible. Not like I have the equipment to deck the head or bore the block. I'm not sure what I can get away with doing myself. For example, I didn't know I needed to measure the bore. That's nice to know. I'll be checking it.

As far as the 1g head on a 2g block, I really don't see why it'd be a big issue other than maybe moving some things such as the master cylinder, etc. No biggie to me though. I'm not in a huge hurry.

And was thinking of just throwing in some aluminum rods and new pistons that I've wanted for so long....so long as everything is in spec and it's okay to do this. Not sure what other measures that a machine shop would take that I couldn't just do myself.

Most machine shops include disassembly and reassembly of the head in the price to machine/clean it. If you're throwing new valves in, you should probably get the seats redone, or at least lap the new valves. You should at least mic the cylinders before you just throw new pistons in. Do you know how to set ring gap? Oil clearances? If you're building it it may want to use ARP main studs, but then you should get it align honed. It really depends on how much you know how to do vs how much you need the machine shop to do.

This is what I'm looking for. No, don't know how to do that stuff yet. I would've just rehoned the cylinders, then thrown in the rods and pistons and torque to spec. That's why I'm on here To save myself from screwing it up. Lol.

 

[g4ebguy90]

The reason why a 1g head is a issue is, alot of people use a 6 bolt head, which has 12 mm bolts, these will not fit on your 2g block... unless you machine in it. My solution is to use a 7 bolt 1g head. Idk why people dont in the first place.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Get a 2g head for your 7 bolt engine, seems way more easier, its not a simple swap, the block will need some work like were tellin you.

 

[g4ebguy90]

Yea as far as head performance, were talking like a possible 2-3% difference in hp.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Well do it once and right or youll do it again, 2g heads are a easy fix get one, swap it done, unless you want to go invest money and time into using a 1g head.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Already have a 1g headm intake, and tb. Not sure if it's a 6 bolt or 7 bolt though. Gonna make it work.

 

[92AWDHX40]

You can make it work, were not saying that iits not anything is possible.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Guess I need to find the "how-to's" so I know how to do as much of this as possible on my own.

 

[300dollarGSX]

Hey man! I'm pretty sure we've met, but it would have been a years ago when we actually tried to have DSM meets in the area.

Anyway, I usually just take the head to a machine shop since it comes back clean and in spec, but you can do some stuff yourself if the head was in pretty good shape. If you're not sure what kind of shape the head is in, though, there really is no replacement for a good machinist. If you just want stock specs, then it isn't that expensive to take the head in for a valve job and a resurface for a nice MLS head gasket.

That said, there are quite a few things you can do by yourself if you didn't want to use a machinist. Changing the valve stem seals is pretty straightforward. They usually come with a little plastic installer that you place over the end of the valve stems to make it easier to install the seals and make sure you don't damage them in the process. I use assembly lube when putting them in, but there may be better stuff for it.

Lapping the valves is done easily enough. You'll just need some lapping compound and one of those ancient lapping tools (looks kind of like a weird egg beater).

If you have a parts washer or something, you can get the head pretty clean. Also, be sure to check the deck with a straightedge and a feeler gauge to make sure the head surface is flat. Place the straightedge across the surface and see if the feeler gauge can fit between it and the head at various points. Do this with the straightedge in several positions (corner to corner, side to side, front to back, etc).

With no rockers/followers in the head, turn the cams to make sure they don't bind up or anything. If they bind, then the head may be warped. Sometimes, a machine shop can heat the head and straighten it back out, but it wouldn't be something you could do at home. A machinist will also have specialty tools for checking installed spring height and tension and can put a nice cut on the valve seats and valves and will typically do a much better job with all this stuff, though.

For the block, there are bore gauges that work well for measuring the cylinders. If your cylinders still have crosshatching all the way down and don't have any shiny spots, I can't imagine it is very worn. You can use a bore gauge to check for taper and see if the bore gets larger or is out of round at all, but again, I would expect the crosshatch to be gone if there was excessive wear. If you're just doing a basic re-ring, it sounds as if just honing the cylinders just long enough to remove the glazing should be okay.

Do the same check on the deck surface as you did on the head to make sure it is as flat as possible. Check some of the threads by BogusSVO. He has given some tips on prepping the deck surface. I know you're in Panama City, but he's here in Pensacola if you are ever in the area. I've never actually visited his shop, but we've talked some in PM's and whatnot. I'll be bringing him my head to see if he can fix what another machine shop did.

If you are replacing the pistons, you will need to accurately measure the cylinders and the pistons to make sure you have adequate piston to cylinder wall clearance (the pistons should come with a spec sheet that will tell you the recommended clearance). I'm assuming you were possibly wanting to use aftermarket/forged pistons?

I don't suggest the aluminum rods unless you are building an all out race engine.

Are you replacing the bearings? Plastigauge works okay, but measuring with a mic and getting your exact specs is better.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Hey man, yeah, we've met. But of course it's been a long time.

I need more experience in the "building" part of the engine. I wish had the experience but it's the little things I don't know. Don't guess I'm gonna screw around with it. I'm confident with either BogusSvo or Dover cylinder heads here in town. Just not sure about any machinist here in town that I'd trust with the bottom end.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Guess I'm holding off on doing it myself, cause I don't care to screw anything up. Was a thought though.

 

[BogusSVO]

300DollarGSX is got it all about right.

I know Dover Cylinder heads, I use them for reman stock heads that I do not have. How far they would go with a head tech, I can not say.

I would say get a full valve job done on the head by a machine shop, that way things like the springs can be checked and the guides can be too.

if you go MLS head gasket, both the Block and head will need to be surfaced about perfect. Not all shops have the equipment to do this, so ask wht they will use for surfacing.

It would be perferred if each cylinder in the block was measured and each pistion was too.

I would recommend having the pistons and rods weight matched if not having the whole rotating assembly spin balamced.

 

[turbo4awd]

Depending on your goals you may be better off to stay with the 2g head. Magnus has a good write up that explains a little bit about 1g heads

High horsepower cars require a large volume of fuel (especially in alcohol applications) and the oversize ports in the 1G allow superior inertial supercharging effects. The increased popularity of alcohol in the last few years constantly steered us in the direction of the fat 1G ports. If you want to build the world's baddest 4G63 motor, all the numbers and the evidence gained through years of racing points in the direction of the 1G head.

With that being the case, the intake manifold needs to be optimized to feed these flow-hungry ports. Using advanced computer modeling techniques and after 7 iterations, we finally achieved the design we were looking for. From 20 PSI to 100 PSI. and from 40 lbs of airflow to 160lbs of airflow, the new 1G V3 cast manifold has equal flow distribution within 1 percent in each cylinder. That's something none of the competition can even approach. In addition to unmatched flow distribution, the 1G V3 manifold offers reduced restriction and increased flow compared to all our previous designs.

 

[turboglenn]

A good machinist won't charge much to disasemble, clean and assemble the head with the needed work i always have my machinist to do all this althugh i can i don't like to and i'm a broke ass disabled person

As for the block.. I have them do everything and get it to where it can be assembled (bearings are numbered to correct rods and journals etc.. so i don't even have to check em) then i file fit the rings and assemble the bottom end just cause it saves my machinist time, but as long as he does all the clearance checking first and ok's it he will warranty the build

finding a good machinist is like finding a drop dead gorgeous wife that wants nothing more than to please you in every way and buy you things.... yea, it's a one in a million find (and you may never find her) but if you do, NEVER GO ASTRAY, NEVER ARGUE, ALWAYS DO AS THEY TELL YOU, don't ask other people what you or the machinist shoudl do..ask the machninist..he'll know by talking to you if youor him should be doing it if you find a good one

 

[95talongirl]

300dollarGSX pretty much explained it all. Check your block out and see if everything is still within specifications. If it is,then you won't need much. If you are planning to use a MLS head gasket, you'll need to have the surfaces of the block and head prepped for one. Other things, such as honing can be done yourself, as mentioned already.

The only of their thing I'd suggest as well is to not use aluminum rods on a more daily driver/street use car. They are not designed for that kind of use.

 

[bryanwheat]

The reason why a 1g head is a issue is, alot of people use a 6 bolt head, which has 12 mm bolts, these will not fit on your 2g block... unless you machine in it. My solution is to use a 7 bolt 1g head. Idk why people dont in the first place.

Incorrect. The 1g heads will bolt right to the 2g block no problem. The holes for the bolts are larger, in the head. You are still threading them into the block. Now the other way around, a 2g head on a 6 bolt, you will have to enlarge the holes on the head to fit the thicker bolt in.

To the original poster. I would reccomend not touching the bottom end if it had good compression and didn't smoke. It is pretty rare to actually have worn out rings on these engines. I would just install new gaskets on it, eliminate the balance shaft belts, (remember to use rtv on the oil pan and not a gasket), and throw it it in the car. No need to fix things that aren't broken. I see so many people doing this.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Okay, I've decided to leave the block alone for now because I wanna get my car running sometime this century. Debating on replacing the bearings though. As for the head, I DO plan to have it checked out fully. Either Dover Cylinder heads or BogusSvo, but Dover is right around the block.

I'm gonna use a stock composite gasket cause I don't wanna worry about it leaking and I know of plenty of people who have ran some high horsepower on a stock gasket without issues. Wanna have a new turbo on this thing when I drop it back in so need as much money as I can. If I did everything just because "I'm already in there", I'd be spending so much money on it that I'd never have it running. And I have another block to build later anyway.

Thanks for all the advice though.

P.S. Oh yeah, I'm sticking with the 1g head. And I thought it was kinda funny to hear that it'd be difficult to get a 1g head on a 2g block. I THOUGHT that the 1g head bolts were bigger than the 2g's. Guess I was right, so it shouldn't be an issue.