trouble starting. rebuild??

[dubysnax]

i have about 260000 miles on my car. most of it has already been rebuilt. but i cheaped out last year by only doing a gasket set instead of full rebuild with pistons. im worried about ordering the kit i found off ebay since it has no rods and i feel they should be replaced. good brands?? and can you buy shorter rods to lower compression for a turbo? and my head has been milled once and i dont want clattering. so should i buy a head as well. the whole reason i am doing this is its black smoking when it does run when i hold it above idle but when i let off it dies everything is so gunked up and is killing me. i dont know what to do

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dodg...l:Eclipse|Make:Mitsubishi&hash=item3cb29995fc

 

[soapisclean]

i know if you go to parts dinosaur they sell factory rods pretty cheap.

 

[Tyeler18]

For starters, No shorter rods won't lower your compression. You need lower compression pistons.

How much was the head milled? If it's fine with the stock pistons in it now, it SHOULD be fine with new pistons.

Stock rods are pretty cheap, but if you plan on turboing you may want to look into forged pistons/rods.

 

[dubysnax]

7000th. it was really warped. what if i got the forged rods and the rebuild kit?? would that be enough to boost it?? and keep the boost under 10 lbs? i dont have the money to fork out 800 buck for pistons.

 

[Tyeler18]

You'd still have an essentially stock motor. Stock motor can handle around 8lbs or so, just doing rods you're still only going to be able to make 8ish lbs tops. If you can't do it the way you want to right now, then don't do it. You'll get that 8lbs going and then you'll want more, everyone does.

Do it once and do it right. Otherwise just do a stock rebuild and keep it N/A.

 

[dubysnax]

thats true man. thanks for the advise. ill just rebuild it and drive it till i can afford the put the money in it. what do you think about the rebuild kit?? good parts??

 

[BogusSVO]

I have ordered lots of Mizumo for all sorts of imports, they are great to deal with.

Looks like you will get NPR pistons/rings and either King or ACL bearings.. All good parts

If when you do the rebuild, have your cylinder bores checked before you order parts.
Have the crank checked before you order parts.

This way if the block needs boared or the crank ground, you will get the right parts the first time.

Also I would have the big end of the con rods checked, and install ARP rod bolts, resize the rods as needed.

You state the head has been milled, do you know how much?

 

[dubysnax]

7000ths of an inch. i was going to buy rods as well. i dont have any tools to measure the bore or bearing clearances. but when it was milled and had a headgasket about a year and a half ago the shop that did it ####ed me over. the cam retainers were lose and was put together poorly. i had to pull it apart again 6 months later. when i cheaped out.

 

[BogusSVO]

ok you mean .007 of an inch, That is not much, so they cut maybe .010

Alot of shops leave the cam caps loose, that way the cams do not force the valves down past the HG surface where they can get bent.

I would load the block, crank and rods up and go to a machine shop that has the tools to measure with. Thay way you know what you need to have a long lasting engine.

To mic a block and crank, about $30 if thats all the machine shop does.
Having the big end check on the con rods will be about $6-$10 per rod.

 

[dubysnax]

the first time it was done i had everything put back together after the machine work. they did a shitty job putting it all back together. in tech terms yes. but you knew what i meant. im thinking of getting a head from the yard and having it checked. im worried if it needs to be milled again that it will cause issues. whats your take?? i know ill need a straight edge and a set of feelier gauges. but what else to measure?? and i was planning on buying rods. i dont trust the ones in it. theyve done 250000 miles. atleast. out with the old in with the new.

 

[bryanwheat]

IF the rods in the motor are in spec than they will be fine. They aren't really a wearable item, and can be used in many engines if the big end is in good shape. The only problem with them is that they can not be resized because they are cracked rods. I would either use the ones that you have, or buy some forged rods.

 

[dubysnax]

ok. thanks for the help bryan. what would be considered a good set?? and how much am i looking at??

 

[BogusSVO]

As far as the head goes

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cylinder-head-short-block/413772-how-clean-head-gasket-surface.html

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/341627-how-check-head-warp.html

This is for a 4G, but the procedure will be the same for the 420A I will have to find the thickness spec for the 420A
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...how-measure-4g63-cylinder-head-thickness.html

The 420A New head thickness is a range of 5.114-5.119

So as long as you are no thinner than 5.100 you should be just fine.

For Rods about any Hbeam rod will suit your needs and be more than what you need.

 

[dubysnax]

i really appreciate your help with this. thank you for the links and the original post. this has been helpful. saturday i will be going to clearwater to get a head for the rebuild. and i found that my head has been milled twice from they guy i got the car from.

 

[BogusSVO]

If you stay NT, the thinner head will help raise compression

It is an option to concider, alot of heads get milled past spec to raise compression.

 

[dubysnax]

its not going to stay n/t forever. i just want it to get me to work and back and school so i can get the money to make it turbo.

 

[bryanwheat]

I'd spend a little extra money and get a little beater honda to daily drive if you plan on doing any work to this car. Boosted 420a and daily driver don't belong in the same paragraph, let alone same sentence.

 

[dubysnax]

its my dd for now. i have a 2001 impala i got from my grandma for nothing. it needs alot of work tho. more than my car. and it got terrible milage. so once im done with school i will boost it. since its 110 miles to school 5 days a week.

 

[BogusSVO]

Does the imp have the 3.1/3.4 v6? If so I would bet some of the problems would be bad intake and/or head gaskets!

 

[JusMX141]

How do you know the engine needs rebuilt? Have you done a compression test? If the intake manifold is full of carbon and the exhaust is black and sooty there's a good chance the EGR valve is stuck and the car will continue to run as such even after you spend the time and money rebuilding the engine.

 

[dubysnax]

when i drained the oil there were metal shavings and what look like chunks of the rings. the egr was a little black but not stuck.

the impala is a 3800. it spun a crank bearing and threw a rod possible 2.

 

[LD25Delta9]

How do you know the engine needs rebuilt? Have you done a compression test? If the intake manifold is full of carbon and the exhaust is black and sooty there's a good chance the EGR valve is stuck and the car will continue to run as such even after you spend the time and money rebuilding the engine.

This.

OP:If you can't hear any knocking or ticking, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. You can probably get away with rings and bearings if you don't plan on boosting it too much.

My turbo 420A was DD'd for nearly 2 years with the only real problem being a oil leak for the Oil Pressure Gauge.
Also, contrary to popular belief, the 420a can handle about 13"lbs" of boost before the rods/rod bolts give out. This is assuming you have the proper fuel and tuning abilities. Also remember though: Turbo A, flows B lbs/min, at C altitude. What I mean by that is obviously a giant T67 @ 13lbs is going to flow differently than a small frame T3 @ 13lbs. Especially when you start figuring in their relation to sea level. So theoretically, the 420A could handle 15lbs.
Also, you cannot install ARP rod bolts onto stock 420A rods without cutting the bolt down, which the amount of heat generated by cutting will change the structural integrity of the bolt, which is kinda counter productive if you ask me. Not to mention, how much of a PITA it is to cut ARP bolts.

 

[bullettdsm]

This.

OP:If you can't hear any knocking or ticking, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. You can probably get away with rings and bearings if you don't plan on boosting it too much.

Oh yeah? How about this;

when i drained the oil there were metal shavings and what look like chunks of the rings. .

Lol, just bustin' on ya Adam. I'm guessing you missed that as you posted

Adam's correct about the rod bolts. No reason for ARP's. New stock bolts are more than enough for stock rods. The general concensus is that stock rods will hold 200whp before they start getting into "danger" area. IMO, they are good for 250whp (of course with the appropriate torque numbers. If you are somehow making 220whp with 300tq then we'd be talking a different story ), but I have not been able to get around to prove that yet. But anyway, if you are staying NA go with your old stock rods and replacement bolts (obviously as long as the stock rods aren't chewed up or anything). IMO with a small turbo (say 14bish size) that will spool quick and keep you in the low 200whp's, I say still stick with stock. If you are going for a turbo that can put deeper in the 200's then by all means go with Eagles (pretty much the most common rod used for the 420a).

But keep in mind that people who start off with, "I just want such and such power", almost ALL the time end up going for more. With that being said, the better part of valor would be to get some Eagles so they are already in there.

Honestly, one of the best places to get Eagle rods with turbo compression JE pistons would be E-Bay. You will see deals on sets on there a lot.


Let's see what else did you need?;
I don't think you're leaning to the kit you posted anymore;

I wouldn't worry too much about comp with the head thickness. Generally speaking .005 taken off the head will get you .1 more in comp. So if you took as much as .020 off you would raise your comp .4. So if you bought 8.8 comp pistons, you would raise it to 9.2. With these motors and the fiorged strength of the psiton, you would be fine (provided you didn't do anything screwy like try to run 16 to 1 afr's on boost WTF);

There are many boosted 420a's out there that have been dependable for years. The problems come when people don't do it properly. These engines are very hardy and rather knock friendly.

MB

 

[dubysnax]

bullett thank you!!! you just cleared it all up for me. its time to save some more money up for a turbo kit. but till then i will rebuild. i will check tomorrow but i think ill need a oil and water pump. and tons of gaskets. so i might as well buy a similar set. without the pistons and buy some eagles. could i use those on stock rods with not real problem after i boost the car?? and still make some power to haul some ass until i can turbo???

 

[bryanwheat]

Most aftermarket rods use a bushed pin the 420a are press fit so it will not work with stock pistons unless you can find a set of rods for pressed pins.