The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

i really want to get my evo3 16g gst into the 11.8 max i would be happy but atleast if i can get into 12.5 ill be happy, but hmm i wonder how long itll take me, just need good motor and trans, just never know which company to go to, but ya money holds me back aaaa!!! congrats on all yall hitting those low times,

Build your own motor, and blow up the stock trans first (unless it's already on it's way out). Budget racing is more fun anyways.

So Dave, going to trailer that thing to Norwalk for the shootout or what?

 

[pneumo]

Dam, Norwalk is a long drive from California.....

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Well, the time has come! As seen in the 14b thread I ran the small 16g on the car, so it's all set up to run any of these turbos. The EVO3 16g is next. With a 10.9 at 123 on the small 16g, I expect low 10s on the EVO 16g. Once the turbo is on and baselined I have some changes to make to try to push it a little further, ultimately into the 9s I hope, without the nitrous.

-Cam gears are set for extra overlap, I can dial that out for this turbo, and shift the power band around to better suit the smaller turbos.
-Weld the internal flapper shut (there's a V44 on the manifold).
-The EVO3 turbo should let me launch at a higher rpm for better 60 foots (the small 16g was limited to 6100 on this torque converter).
-It seems like many of the top cars on the list are on E85. I have a 55 gallon drum of E99 in the garage I can finally switch to. With IDC in the 30% range, I have plenty of fuel capacity for once.
-I'm definitely not above throwing a huge shot of nitrous at it, as much as the V44 can bypass.

I'm trying to find a used EVO 16g for this week so I can make some passes Friday.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Here's a video a friend put up.

Kevin Jewer runs 10.9 on a small 16g Rear wheel drive eagle talon - YouTube

I didn't find an EVO 16g for tomorrow, maybe next week.

 

[pneumo]

Wow! Nice vid, I like the last race- very close!

 

[91-gsx]

Great work! That is moving for a small 16g!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Thanks! It might go faster yet on this turbo, the car isn't really optimized for something like this. I don't have an EVO3 turbo yet so I'm going back up tonight to play with some things and try to knock it down a few tenths. I just welded the WG shut instead of the metal strap I used last week. And I'll make changes to the cam gear settings that should do a little better, as well as swap to my GF's working wideband sensor so I can check on the tune, I don't really know where the AFR is at this point.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

No progress. I welded the flapper, got the AFRs up out of the mid 10s, and set the cam gears back to zero. 10.94, 10.93, and 10.90. It did like launching at lower rpm though, probably because it makes more boost. This TC is just too loose for the little turbos, it flashes to 6k rpm, and at that point boost is already dropping fast. Airflow is flat though, so maybe some more cam gear tweaks to suit that rpm range?

EVO16g on the way, I'll have results from that on Friday.

 

[SBstar]

At least your having fun with it. Seeing a car that is usually on a big turbo running low 9's and 8' switch to a little turbo for some fun is kind of cool.b

 

[Kevin Jewer]

It's definitely fun! A lot of people at the track are dissapointed though when they look for the compounds to show their buddies and see that little 16g instead.

Forcefed86 reminded me about the tractor fluid tightening up the TC, so I'll try that next weekend as well. This is the first time I've had to tighten it instead of loosen it, everything is backwards.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

So I ran the new turbo yesterday, but with mixed results. I'm short for time at the moment, so here's a cut and paste from the local board.

My car barely picked up at all switching from what I thought was a small or perhaps big 16g to an EVO3 16g. It ran a pair of 10.8s at 124, then I made a change to the timing curve and it ran a 10.7 at 125 to win the Outlaw class (). I just ran the casting numbers on the two turbos and it seems I did have a big 16g. Airflow barely changed, though boost went up from 25 psi dropping to 16 psi to 29 psi dropping to 20 psi. Back pressure went up by double that amount and topped 60 psi. Airflow (calculated, not measured) went from 38-39 lbs/min to 39-40 lbs/min.

No idea where to go with this next, but I'll be back at the track Friday night trying something...

 

[SBstar]

So that was an old style Big 16g eh? For the record the Big has the 7cm housing and the Small has a 6cm housing, but I'd bet just like us 14b guys they get swapped quite a bit. But a 10.7 on a 16g is still elite territory, not alot of guys in the 10's!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Thanks! I wish it was faster, but this setup, and specifically the torque converter, just isn't optimized for the small turbos. A TC that stalls at 6k rpm and never goes below that on a pass doesn't match well with a turbo that is already falling off at that point. But I'm going try to squeeze some more out of it.

What I find odd is the airflow. The numbers aren't accurate as absolute airflow values, since it's a backwards calculation from fuel flow, specific gravity, AFR, etc. But there should have been a ~5 lbs/min change in the number regardless, and I barely got 1. The fact that boost and back pressure both rose tells me that the choke point has to be in the turbine wheel. What I can't understand is why. I've measured 43-44 lbs/min through 7cm housings with relative ease. The 10cm should easily move as much. I could see the extra flow from the 10cm housing preventing the turbine from providing the shaft power required to drive the compressor to the required rpm for max flow, but that doesn't make sense when back pressure to manifold pressure is at a 3:1 ratio and the turbine is running at a 5:1 expansion ratio. The only way to know though would be to compare drive pressrue values to those from a car running the 7cm housing and seeing that 43 lbs/min airflow. I can't find any data from anyone that's ever measured it though, so I predict that I'll end up running the 7cm housing this Friday, if I can get new compressor discharge and downpipes made in time.

 

[forcefed86]

So I ran the new turbo yesterday, but with mixed results. I'm short for time at the moment, so here's a cut and paste from the local board.

My car barely picked up at all switching from what I thought was a small or perhaps big 16g to an EVO3 16g. It ran a pair of 10.8s at 124, then I made a change to the timing curve and it ran a 10.7 at 125 to win the Outlaw class (). I just ran the casting numbers on the two turbos and it seems I did have a big 16g. Airflow barely changed, though boost went up from 25 psi dropping to 16 psi to 29 psi dropping to 20 psi. Back pressure went up by double that amount and topped 60 psi. Airflow (calculated, not measured) went from 38-39 lbs/min to 39-40 lbs/min.

No idea where to go with this next, but I'll be back at the track Friday night trying something...

Wait, so my turbo wasn't an e316g? That’s annoying! Bought it from Forced Performance as a combo deal. E316g w/ e3 02 housing port matched. I'll be happy to refund your money...that stinks! Not a huge diff in flow but the e3 has a slightly larger wheel than the big 16g. The rear housing on my turbo sure looked like an evo housing? It was lighter weight than the small 16g housing I had? Here's a pic anyone care to chime in I don't have experience with the two.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

So back to your car... Did you end up taking some overlap out of the cams? I'm sure your motor/head flow a lot more than mine did so you won't make as much boost. Strange the MPH isn't higher though. Your conv/trans/tire setup may be soaking up a lot of power I guess? Did you try the Hygard fluid?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I thought it wasn't at first, but realized that I had the PNs reversed. Your turbo was indeed the E3 16g. You must have read the message in the email that doesn't include the edit after I realized my mistake.

I did set the cam gears back to zero, so these are FP4Rs straight up. I did that back on the big 16g and it didn't make a measurable difference. I do expect boost to be lower than many setups out there, but the low relative airflow is what has me scratching my head. I'm also using the 10cm T3 housing, not the one that was on the turbo. MPH will be down since auto cars are always way down on mph, depending on how much the TC slips. For example, running 8.80s at only 156 mph, where a 5 speed car would be well into the mid 160s typically. Some of it is ET vs MPH efficiency, some of it is power lost to the drivetrain. IIRC I'm only around 5% slippage on the 16g, vs ~11% slippage on the compounds. I will try the hyguard, but I want to make that a back to back test, so it's on the list.

 

[Nate Crisman]

So I ran the new turbo yesterday, but with mixed results. I'm short for time at the moment, so here's a cut and paste from the local board.

My car barely picked up at all switching from what I thought was a small or perhaps big 16g to an EVO3 16g. It ran a pair of 10.8s at 124, then I made a change to the timing curve and it ran a 10.7 at 125 to win the Outlaw class (). I just ran the casting numbers on the two turbos and it seems I did have a big 16g. Airflow barely changed, though boost went up from 25 psi dropping to 16 psi to 29 psi dropping to 20 psi. Back pressure went up by double that amount and topped 60 psi. Airflow (calculated, not measured) went from 38-39 lbs/min to 39-40 lbs/min.

No idea where to go with this next, but I'll be back at the track Friday night trying something...

WOW 60psi of backpressure I too would have expected a bit more improvement going from the old style big 16g to the exalted Evo3 version, but I guess it is what it is: ~1-2mph gained. Do the exh pressure vs boost pressure curves look like a steady ratio of 2:1 or does it vary with rpm? (I haven't had the opportunity to look at exh pressure curves on any car yet, I never got around to buying a big enough map sensor to measure).

Wana put a 14b on it next week and see what happens?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I thought I had a 14b to toss on it but forgot we sold it. I'd have to find one.

The back pressure curve goes up with rpm. I'm currently reading from the EGR port and it needs a good bit of filtering to make it readable, I need to move that to a better location to get better data and we'll see for sure. Averaging a whole run I see 2:1 ratios. 22 psi boost, 46 psi back pressure. It's at high rpm that boost drops and back pressure peaks, going to 3:1, up to 3.5:1 in some cases. It's pretty close to 1:1 during spool up up to about 20 psi or so and ~5000 rpm. Then back pressure takes off.

For comparison, the compound turbo setup is exactly 1:1 all the way up to 45 psi and 8000 rpm crossover, then back pressure slowly climbs to 48 psi by 9500 rpm. Not bad for a setup that spools nearly as quickly but moves almost 3 times more air.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

New bests of 10.5, 126 mph, and 1.49 sixty foot before I realized that my low gear band was slipping. It was after 9 oclock so I just packed it up. I'll make the adjustment next week, change the fluid, and go back up Friday. I'm hoping the slipping band is the reason for the crappy 60 foots and slightly slow ETs.

New back pressure data with the new sensor location showed an average across a run of 22 psi and 45 psi. The 45 psi was so flat I suspected the V44 was blowing open (only a 13 psi spring IIRC). I swapped the pressure line from the side port to the top port to hold it shut. The result was an average of 24 psi, but 55 psi back pressure. It didn't go any faster naturally. The pressures are 1:1 up until I release the transbrake. Boost shoots from 20 to 26 psi, and back pressure shoots from 20 psi to 45 (or 55) psi.

I still have more things to try after baselining it again with the low gear band adjusted. I'm tring to change one thing at a time, but there are only 4-5 track days left up here.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I went back up last night with the trans band adjusted and the new fluid. The first gear problem is definitely fixed. Unfortunately my line lock steering wheel button failed some time between last Friday and this Friday, I couldn't get a real burnout. With the low temps (high 40s/low 50s) and slippery track I couldn't even get off the starting line. I'm going to overnight two of those switches and tyr to make the track rental on Wednesday. I need to see what the trans changes will do, and the 3" exhaust I made yesterday as well. The suspense is killing me...

No one got the 10.5 on video, but here's a shot of a 10.6 at 126.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX0JQMS-yDs

 

[Nate Crisman]

Kevin, man you are starting to make me really consider rotating my engine to go along with the solid rear & ladder bar Im planning for winter mods. Any thoughts on if a 3speed trans would benifit the small turbo setup more than the glide?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

It might. Most of the glide vs 3 spd debate lies in power level, weight, and tire size. Small tire high power cars don't do well with the low first gear of a 3 speed, the taller gear in the glide takes some of the hit off the tire and lets it hook up. Conversely, lower powered big tired heavy cars tend to like the torque multiplication of the low 3 speed first gear, the tire stays hooked up. In my case at ~2400 lbs with 29.5x10.5Ws, on a 16g, I bet a three speed would hook up. If I were building a car for only small turbos I would do a TH400 that has the ability to launch (and transbrake) in second gear so you have the option depending on track conditions, etc. Glides are cheap, light, strong, small, don't take much power to turn, and can be had with SFI rated cases (no shields required, trust me, this is a good thing) though, so that needs to be considered as well. The difference between the two scenarios is likely a tenth at the most in this case anyway.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Agree on the SFI case and the packaging/weight of the glide possibly being more important than having a "first gear".

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Went to a track rental yesterday to work on some things. First pass was a 10.61 at 125 or so. By the end of the rental, playing mostly with the cam gears, I had it down to a 10.37 at 128. That seemed like it was the most I was going to get out of this setup, every subsequent change in either direction made it slower.

At that point I decided to swap to E98, ballpark the fuel and reduce the timing, and retech for street night. First pass was in the mid 12s:1 so I aborted. Not a bad guess though. Second pass was in the mid 11s so I stayed in it for a 10.31 at 129. I made some changes to the timing and fuel and brought it back up, but on the launch the rpm went to 8000 before the car moved. For a split second I assumed it was tire spin, but I soon realized it was the trans slipping. Low gear band is probably a pile of goo in the bottom of the trans pan. Luckily these powerglides are ridiculously cheap to fix. I doubt I'll get it out again this year though. We'll see. It's too bad, I was looking forward to dialing in the ethanol at Saturday's import event.

The time slip looks like this:

1.452
4.205
6.543
104.71
8.579
10.317
129.43

 

[forcefed86]

Went to a track rental yesterday to work on some things. First pass was a 10.61 at 125 or so. By the end of the rental, playing mostly with the cam gears, I had it down to a 10.37 at 128. That seemed like it was the most I was going to get out of this setup, every subsequent change in either direction made it slower.

At that point I decided to swap to E98, ballpark the fuel and reduce the timing, and retech for street night. First pass was in the mid 12s:1 so I aborted. Not a bad guess though. Second pass was in the mid 11s so I stayed in it for a 10.31 at 129. I made some changes to the timing and fuel and brought it back up, but on the launch the rpm went to 8000 before the car moved. For a split second I assumed it was tire spin, but I soon realized it was the trans slipping. Low gear band is probably a pile of goo in the bottom of the trans pan. Luckily these powerglides are ridiculously cheap to fix. I doubt I'll get it out again this year though. We'll see. It's too bad, I was looking forward to dialing in the ethanol at Saturday's import event.

129 is cookin! Is that a 16g trap record? I recall Lucas E. going 127 on the 16g. I know the HTA’s have trapped higher but I don’t see how you can count those as a 16g.

You can tell something is "off" with that 1/8th mph for sure. C’mon... you can rebuild that glide in a couple hours! Then you can make sure all the bugs out for next season. Think I had $120 in my glide “freshen” last time around. Going strong since oct of last year till now. No signs of slipping yet, gotta love it! I’ll pull it this winter just for peace of mind.

 

[turbotalon1g]

Damn that's moving.
Imagine what it would do with a EF1/68hta.

In my old 5 spd E316G car I picked up 28mph in the back 1/8, do u think there is more for you to get?