The 16g Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Kevin Jewer]

129 might be an auto record, but five speeds have been over 130. MPH is always low on the damned autos.

Yeah, I think there's more in it since that was the first pass on the ethanol, needs to be completely retuned. At least the timing. I'll sweep the AFRs and see if there's anything to gain there but I don't think there will be much. I wanted 9s without nitrous, but I'll bet it runs a 10.1 at 131 and maxes out. I'd love to see what a 68HTA would do. And I still need to try nitrous. I'm sure I'll run the small turbos for a month or two next season.

 

[turbotalon1g]

^That's awesome. I hope it doesn't screw you and do a 10.0/10.1 .

My EF1 auto, mostly full weight, no rear speakers and no front crash bar for FMIC trapped 119. Still need to do cams, smim, go to SD instead of 2G MAS more boost.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

119 is moving prety good!

Here's the video.

Kevin Jewer 10.31 @ 129 EVO 3 16G - YouTube

 

[rrussell]

119 is moving prety good!

Here's the video.

Kevin Jewer 10.31 @ 129 EVO 3 16G - YouTube

Nice!!!

1.45 60' on that run?

What was your best 60' on the compounds?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Yup, 1.45. That's a best on the 16g BTW. Typical 60 foots were in the 1.49-1.59 range (big 16g). The ethanol is nasty on the 2 step, I'm sure that has something to do with it. The compounds were always soft on the 60 foot, right from the first pass, low-mid 130s. On the single 4294 1.20 was the best with many runs in the mid-low 1.2x range.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Well I know I'm not even close to most of you guys yet. But I've made some good progress this year. My best to date is in my profile along with all my mods. Currently installing a vibriant fmic and also rebuilding my hrc 16g. We have 2 more race days this year and I'm hoping to see some mid 12's or maybe better. But so far this year I'm stoked with the progress with my setup and still on stock motor with 230,000+ miles. I'm definetly in need of more fuel as my 550's are about maxed out running 25psi on turbo. I know my trap speed is only 100 mph on my best pass. But normally I trap 109, I slowed up because I had to let off the gas. I noticed about half way down the track my boost started to drop and my a/f started to rise. So I let off to be safe, once I got to my pit I found my fpr vaccum line blew off grrrrr. Thank God for gauges or my motor would have been toast leaning out so much at 25psi and over 90 mph. Anyway here's a video of my best pass, only thing that sucked is the announcer didn't say time for some reason. But I got the slip to back it up. I will add I plan to be the first dsm in Hawaii to hit 10's, and would also like to do this on my hrc 16g. Dsmkauai labor day weekend - YouTube

 

[Nate Crisman]

Kevin,

Sorry for being a cricket! Glad to see this 16g thing is still fun, after reading your thoughts on exhaust pressure, Im 100% sure going to be logging it & trying to determine a curve and plan for what the ideal boost/exhaust pressure is going to be. This year Iv been running the waste gate at 100%, which you seem to be proving is counter productive.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Nice! We need a couple guys playing with it so we can learn more faster. I still want to try regulating intake to exhaust manifold pressure to see what happens when I hold a particular ratio, but I'm pretty close to that as is. It's not as good as adjustable boost by rpm, but it seems to be working. If the season were longer I would try 10 lbs less back pressure and see how it likes that. I know that 10 lbs more back pressure doesn't go any faster. I'm also interested in seeing numbers from guys with the standard 7cm housings for comparison as well. I bought some of the parts needed to swap to the 7cm housing but it's just too much work to be worthwhile.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Which map sensor are you using to log exhaust press? I'v already tapped the EGR port on my Evo3 intake manifold, but never bought a sensor since I wasn't really sure what range I'd need.

Im running the E3 7cm housing, granted with a 14b compressor wheel, but literally as soon as I get a clean w/ spray pass in the 10.50's Im going to slap the E3 16g cartridge back on and have some fun. We can compare data as soon as I have it, I share logs/maps with anyone.

DSMlink boost control can do error correction, but it only works off the main map sensor. Wouldn't it be interesting if you could run the boost control target table off the second map sensor that is measuring exhaust pressure and create an honest map to regulate exhaust pressure instead of boost pressure. Can AEM run boost control in closed loop off a map sensor that's secondary?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I use an AEM 5 bar sensor. I do max it out though in spots. You can get PSIG sensors from AEM as well with a lot more range for the same price.

 

[forcefed86]

Oil pressure gauges with remote electric sending units work well.

 

[pneumo]

I made some small gains yesterday at the track. Weather conditions were good, it was around 65*F with 50% humidity, just enough sunshine to dry the track after a day of rain. Track prep wasn't too good, most cars were having trouble hooking up and my car was spinning the slicks with just a mild launch.

I hit my new best MPH with the 16G - 130.1mph! I was happy to reach my goal of breaking the 130mph barrier with this turbo. The main thing I changed since last time out was to add a CAI. It's a forward facing velocity stack intake.

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It's easy to swap at the track, just remove the headlight and remove the filter and the CAI fits on the existing intake pipe. Quick and easy.

Unfortunately I was chasing a misfire issue all day. If I rolled off the line and waited until 2nd gear to go WOT it ran great, pulled hard and had a crisp, ripping exhaust note. If I launched it hard it would misfire badly as soon as I shifted into 2nd. The best run was 10.8 spinning through first gear and with a little misfire just after shifting into 3rd gear. I got it on video, check it out. Sorry about the buzzing noise in the vid, I think my old camera has a fuzzball stuck in the mic.
10 8@130 - YouTube

 

[Nate Crisman]

130 on boost in a reasonable real car....nice!

 

[pneumo]

Yeah it was fun driving it home. Everytime I hit boost my toolbox would cut loose and roll over my laptop! Ha, it's OK just as long as it doesn't hit my bag of flamin' hot Cheeto's!

My datalogs show that the new intake is good for an extra 2psi of boost across the entire rev range. Boost seems to go up in higher gears, but it's hard to tell if that's from the ram air effect or just the harder load in taller gears. It's also hard to see if the intake temps are lower since my IAT is located just before the throttle body, but I'm only seeing IAT increase by 13*F for the whole run. Starts at 93 and finish at 106. Not bad for running 33 to 27psi on a 16G.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Nice mph! The temps at the throttle body are already tempered by the intercooler, so any gains/losses are cut down by its efficiency. You might see the gains better by logging drive pressure before and after, but I don't know what numbers to expect. I could try it on my car and see next year if you're not set up to log drive pressure. The gains there are probably worth more than the few degrees change you might see in IATs. Spool up as well.

Do you spin 1st gear higher than the other gears according to the logs? If so, I would suspect valve train over ignition. If the valves float a bit at high rpm in first you'll misfire through second. I'm not sure what you have for cams/springs, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

[pneumo]

Nice mph! The temps at the throttle body are already tempered by the intercooler, so any gains/losses are cut down by its efficiency. You might see the gains better by logging drive pressure before and after, but I don't know what numbers to expect. I could try it on my car and see next year if you're not set up to log drive pressure. The gains there are probably worth more than the few degrees change you might see in IATs. Spool up as well.

Do you spin 1st gear higher than the other gears according to the logs? If so, I would suspect valve train over ignition. If the valves float a bit at high rpm in first you'll misfire through second. I'm not sure what you have for cams/springs, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Thanks for the info, I'm always open to ideas. My valvetrain is Kiggly beehive springs and Kelford 272 cams. My logger only goes up to 7968rpm, so I'm not exactly sure of the shift rpm.

A couple clues that seem to show up during the misfire is the boost rises about 2psi higher than normal and IAT's jump by a few degrees. It might be compressor surge, but the CAI didn't seem to help. Maybe I just need to man-up and turn the boost down.

 

[Mr4G]

I too have been working with a 16g setup in my car and actually just ran across this thread. I'm in a 92 TSi 5 speed car with a small 16g. Completely stock 6 bolt minus brian crower 272s, bsek, arp headstuds and a cometic head gasket. The car is gutted, but not as much as it could be. I have old dry rotted dunlop sp sports, and a dogbox rebuilt trans. My best time throughout the entire season was a fudged up pass. I was bracket racing, red lighted, got off and then immediatly back in on the gas. Well, here is my results:

60" 1.743
330" 5.019
1/8 7.731 mph 89.67
1000" 10.113
1/4 12.085 MPH 113.64

This is with my knock sum gauge pegged, I had an issue with my logging cable so I could not datalog, but had a pretty loud rod knock the whole time. As a matter of fact the engine lasted for a decent while after this pass with that knock. Eventually while trying to push the car harder while testing, the number 4 connecting rod decided to exit the inside of the engine. New engine and a little different setup is in progress. My original goal was an 11 sec pass with this exact setup. Now I have a 2.4 stroker in the process of being installed along with a few other changes. I'm looking to make a 10 second pass now on a 16g.

What fuel system componets are all of you using? What will supply a 16g setup utilizing e85 with enough fuel?

 

[1SLOW93TURBO]

^^^ I'd get some 880cc-1000cc injectors and for a fuel pump... a walbro 255hp will support over 450whp on e85. If your wanting a tad more aeromotive and jay racing have the same style pumps that support a little more hp and will still bolt up to your factory pick-up.

 

[forcefed86]

I too have been working with a 16g setup in my car and actually just ran across this thread. I'm in a 92 TSi 5 speed car with a small 16g. Completely stock 6 bolt minus brian crower 272s, bsek, arp headstuds and a cometic head gasket. The car is gutted, but not as much as it could be. I have old dry rotted dunlop sp sports, and a dogbox rebuilt trans. My best time throughout the entire season was a fudged up pass. I was bracket racing, red lighted, got off and then immediatly back in on the gas. Well, here is my results:

60" 1.743
330" 5.019
1/8 7.731 mph 89.67
1000" 10.113
1/4 12.085 MPH 113.64

This is with my knock sum gauge pegged, I had an issue with my logging cable so I could not datalog, but had a pretty loud rod knock the whole time. As a matter of fact the engine lasted for a decent while after this pass with that knock. Eventually while trying to push the car harder while testing, the number 4 connecting rod decided to exit the inside of the engine. New engine and a little different setup is in progress. My original goal was an 11 sec pass with this exact setup. Now I have a 2.4 stroker in the process of being installed along with a few other changes. I'm looking to make a 10 second pass now on a 16g.

What fuel system componets are all of you using? What will supply a 16g setup utilizing e85 with enough fuel?

The Jay racing pumps are much better than the the standard 255 walbro and not much more money. Hands down I'd go that route. Factory fuel lines work fine, adjustable FPR helps dial in idle with with large injectors.

Are you set on using the small 16g? My full weight/all option 93 trapped 119 on a e316g. More than enough for 10's on a light weight setup. I'd buy injectors once and go big. I maxed out the DC on my 1000's with the e316g. Shoot for some blue max 1200's. I hear they idle well and are a great product. (currently looking for a set myself). FYI I had the same cam/eng setup as you.

 

[Mr4G]

Currently the car uses 680cc injectors, I have a set of 1175cc injectors out of another car I had, I also have a set of -8 and -6 fuel lines and a mallory external fuel pump. I just am unsure if I want to put that big of a fuel system in. I kind of want to put a fuel cell in the car for weight purposes which is why I would use the lines but I'm still unsure about the mallory pump. I have actually been looking at the aeromotive pump. I also already have an aftermarket regulator. You guys honestly think the jay racing or aeromotive fuel pumps are able to supply enough e85 to be safe? Also I'm not set on the 16g, I hate this turbo, Its honestly just what I had laying around.

 

[turboglenn]

Currently the car uses 680cc injectors, I have a set of 1175cc injectors out of another car I had, I also have a set of -8 and -6 fuel lines and a mallory external fuel pump. I just am unsure if I want to put that big of a fuel system in. I kind of want to put a fuel cell in the car for weight purposes which is why I would use the lines but I'm still unsure about the mallory pump. I have actually been looking at the aeromotive pump. I also already have an aftermarket regulator. You guys honestly think the jay racing or aeromotive fuel pumps are able to supply enough e85 to be safe? Also I'm not set on the 16g, I hate this turbo, Its honestly just what I had laying around.

safe for what? I'm running (now) a single wally 255 HP, with 1000's and making consistantly close to 500 hp (made over 500 but out of ijector soi turned boost down) but this ison a large turbo

I was running dual 255's in tank and that was enough for a LOT of power.. all i run is a -6 feed and use the OEM feed for the new return. that's supposed to be enough line flow for 600+ hp on e85, the pump though, well i've seen close to 600 on a single wally but i preffer to parrallel them but there wasn't room to quickly do it during the AWD swap because of the difference in hangers between the gs-t and gs-x

 

[Mr4G]

Safe enoguh to supply enough e85 to the injectors.

 

[turboglenn]

Safe enoguh to supply enough e85 to the injectors.

i meant for what kinda power goal, what turbo.. if it's a 16g you'd be fine with a wally 255 or TT supra pump and a -6 feed and some 1000 or 1200cc injectors on e85

 

[Mr4G]

I stated the goal in earlier posts. but from what I saw, a single wally wasnt sufficient enough for Nate as he diagnosed his exploding cylinder as a lean condition in cylinder number 1 due to not enough fuel making it to the last injector.

 

[pneumo]

What will supply a 16g setup utilizing e85 with enough fuel?
... but from what I saw, a single wally wasnt sufficient enough for Nate as he diagnosed his exploding cylinder as a lean condition in cylinder number 1 due to not enough fuel making it to the last injector.

A single Walbro on E85 can support up to around 450AWHP give or take a few HP depending on the type of dyno. A single walbro is a good match for 1000cc injectors, they max out at nearly the same limit, give or take depending on fuel pressure an if you use high flow fuel lines/filter or stock restrictive lines/filter.

A few of the really high HP guys in this thread need dual pumps for e85. I'm using a dual setup with 1450 injectors, seeing 65% duty cycle at 450AWHP on a Mustang dyno with the AFR's in the high 11's/ low 12's. The minimum injector size I'd need for the same power and same AFR would be 1200cc @ 85% DC.