The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

Not saying it's impossible or anything, but I would think you would need the car to be a bit lighter to take out project goodwill unless you're planning a relative decent shot of nitrous. I only say this due to the weight of his car when he made his record pass was quite a bit less.

I'm not super hot on predicting how it will run without nitrous, but Im fairly confident that I'll be able to take down the 10.610 w/ nitrous. As stated above, Bucci was only on about 60hp of nitrous from a single fogger. I have a new direct port kit jetted for 115 right now, but on the rich side and will likely jump it to 125 or 135 in order to lean it out rather than take out fuel. Not to mention I can use the nitrous kit the whole way down the track, and Im pretty sure Proj Goodwill was only spraying in 2-3-4 when it can hold down power. Im thinking a solid mid 10 with the nitrous on the smaller shot and lower 10's with a 150.

Im also going to guess that you guys are significantly underestimating the advantage of the auto/awd. My car went 1.48 a couple times on the first day out with no tuning or setup of the launch. Im going to guess being a couple hundred lb lighter, with better tires, more gear ratio, adjustable boost, and some seat time that I'll be able to pull 1.3's out of it. On the one single no-nitrous run I have inthe AWD Auto.... 1.485 to the 60' and 4.542 to the 330'. And that was with shifting directly from 1st to 3rd! When I get this car setup correctly and the launch is correct, it's going to TEAR ASS off the line. I can also slam it with 100+hp in first gear if it doesn't want to move out on the 14b, but I suspect it will leave just as hard vs 16g boost.

The other thing....I believe my current engine setup: higher compression, 2G head with nice porting, Evo3 intake manifold, methanol fueled, is going to be up on power compared to the engine setup in Proj goodwill.

I guess it comes down to if the 60' and 330' advantage of the auto/awd is worth more than the weight and driveline efficiency of FWD/Stick on the top end.

I'v done a large amount of the same weight loss mods at Bucci. Lexan hatch, super light wheels/tires, completely gutted interior, 1gal fuel cell. The car are actually very comparable other than the driveline configuration. There isn't much I can do for weight loss that isn't big budget stuff, which is pretty much the same place he was in 2005: stock brakes, stock shocks, steel doors, stock subframes, steel suspension arms. If there ever was a straightforward comparison, this might be it.

Will see soon how it works out. Im to have the car up and running middle of this week. I can work on it monday, tuesday night, wed morning, and friday. I'v gotta put the turbo and intercooler setup back on, finish wiring the gauges and switch panel, install battery, fill fluids, mount the front hubs and all 4 wheels, and get the base setup done (link settings, base timing, fuel pressure, boost control). If it runs on friday then I'll be ready to hit the track on sunday.

Likely no nitrous on the first track day, but it should at least give us an idea of where we stand.

 

[e85_4g63]

Keep us updated. I still have my 14b, but my car (1g) is gone... maybe this summer/fall I can get another 1g (have a 2g now) and put the 14g on it.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Hit a new personal best at the track last night. Went from a 14.3 @ 101 to 14.1 @113. While I only lowered my ET .2 I gained 12 MPH which is a pretty big increase. There was no vht at all and I'm fwd on street tires. I was running 20 psi out of the 14b on e85, full interior. 60's were 2.4-2.6.

Before my next track day I'm going to swap to a ported 7cm housing, port my 2g manifold, and install a tial 50mm BOV. I'm also looking around for a pair of drag radials depending on the price.

 

[1SloEvo]

Do the drag radials first. With that speed, you could be well into the 12s...possibly very low 12s.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Do the drag radials first. With that speed, you could be well into the 12s...possibly very low 12s.

12's?!?! Heck id be happy with a 13.99. Actually I just looked the 1/4 mile list under 14bs and you're right, there are only 2 guys listed with more MPH then me and they were both in the 11's. The difference is their 1.6-1.7 60' to my 2.4-2.5. Dang.

 

[Mr Peepers]

113 is a great trap speed for a 14b! With a 1.69 60' I was at a 12.004@115mph(awd street tires). With a tire and that trap speed you would be sitting pretty good!

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

113 is a great trap speed for a 14b! With a 1.69 60' I was at a 12.004@115mph(awd street tires). With a tire and that trap speed you would be sitting pretty good!

Thanks! I'm shopping for slicks and rims now. You guys are getting me even more excited!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I was thinking the same thing, great mph. I never got over 110 IIRC on my 2g AWD. FWDs are a touch lighter and have higher gearing, which may explain some of it, but the power is there either way. 113 mph is typically good for a very low 12 in an AWD with a 60' around 1.7, for reference. I'd throw a set of full slicks on it and go for the money pass.

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Hit a new personal best at the track last night. Went from a 14.3 @ 101 to 14.1 @113. While I only lowered my ET .2 I gained 12 MPH which is a pretty big increase. There was no vht at all and I'm fwd on street tires. I was running 20 psi out of the 14b on e85, full interior. 60's were 2.4-2.6.

That is a great mph!

12's?!?! Heck id be happy with a 13.99. Actually I just looked the 1/4 mile list under 14bs and you're right, there are only 2 guys listed with more MPH then me and they were both in the 11's. The difference is their 1.6-1.7 60' to my 2.4-2.5. Dang.

Yes, you've definitely got the potential for 12's with the help of some better tires.

Thanks! I'm shopping for slicks and rims now. You guys are getting me even more excited!

You should be excited.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I went [email protected] with a 1.48 today while shaking down my 1g auto awd. I'll post a full "track report" tonight after I sort through the video, logs, and timeslips.

 

[e85_4g63]

I went [email protected] with a 1.48 today while shaking down my 1g auto awd. I'll post a full "track report" tonight after I sort through the video, logs, and timeslips.

This is on the 14b correct? Or the 16g?

 

[Nate Crisman]

This is on the 14b correct? Or the 16g?

14b without nitrous.

 

[SBstar]

Good job Nate!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Looking at logs, I think the 14b coincidentally blew up on the first nitrous run. It only made 15psi on the converter and never went up in boost during first gear or anytime after that. I bet the 14b crapped the bed already. Will check tomorrow.

Edit: I went out to driveway and pulled the intake pipe. The 14b seems to be intact and doesn't have any crazy play and fins feel there. Im going to guess I'v got a boost leak somewhere.

Looking at the log for the 11.7 run: Boost:
22psi boost on the launch
25psi spike in first gear
15psi at the 1-2 shift at 7000
Ran a 1.48 60'

Boost on 2 next runs (that coincedently had nitrous turned on, but the tune was totally F'd before it even came on)
15psi on the launch
no spike at all in first gear..it just sat at 15psi and fell off from there
7psi at 1-2 shift.
ran crappy 1.69 and 1.678 60' times on these runs before the nitrous tried to come on.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Found the culprit, vac line to bov came off (in OD on the 11.7 run). The crap running was due to big leak, open bov, and map sensor being on that line too. Easy fix.

Next weekend I'll see about making improvements and trying to get a baseline with nitrous. Also have a horrendous shake due to tire balance, gotta try fixing that as it's scary up top with the steering wheel going nuts.

That 11.7 is a full second off the no-n2o record, honestly not sure i can make that up, but I'd guess that with better weather, tune, fuel and some launch tuning it should be capable of 11.3's. But the 10.84 record is a ways out.

With 125hp of nitrous, I think the 10.61 overall 14b record is well within reach. I'd expect to see 12+mph there, and low 120's is plenty to run mid 10's. Just need to go do it next weekend.

 

[SBstar]

Long way to go on the no nitrous record sure, but 11.78 is nothing to sneeze at, elite territory right there! Plus, it's the first trip, I think you could cut that down even further.

 

[pneumo]

Thanks for the update, Nate! That's a good time on the 14b, especially since it's your first time out on the new setup. It shows good potential. I'm almost glad you blew the 16g so you can take a run at the 14b record. I think the 14b will show the strengths of your car better.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Yeah it was 90*+ and stocky humid yesterday. Just weather alone could be 2 tenths compared to a cool fall day. Intake temps were like 54* on the line and up past 110-115* at th trap. Certainly the heat doesn't help.

I think there is a tenth in the 60' on the table. Next time I'm planning to try out a new E85 fuel from PowerMist that's ethanol mixed with leaded racegas instead of crappy 87 octane pumpgas. That might be worth a tick of power if I can go more aggressive on the ignition timing. Could still lose 75lb between my fat gut and some odds and ends that I didn't get finished. Had a 25lb nitrous tank in the car as well even when not in use.

Like I said, I think 11.3 could happen fairly easy. Next weekend I'll see about cutting a better et.

 

[mebetter]

Yeah it was 90*+ and stocky humid yesterday. Just weather alone could be 2 tenths compared to a cool fall day. Intake temps were like 54* on the line and up past 110-115* at th trap. Certainly the heat doesn't help.

I think there is a tenth in the 60' on the table. Next time I'm planning to try out a new E85 fuel from PowerMist that's ethanol mixed with leaded racegas instead of crappy 87 octane pumpgas. That might be worth a tick of power if I can go more aggressive on the ignition timing. Could still lose 75lb between my fat gut and some odds and ends that I didn't get finished. Had a 25lb nitrous tank in the car as well even when not in use.

Like I said, I think 11.3 could happen fairly easy. Next weekend I'll see about cutting a better et.

I've heard that leaded gas and ethanol do not mix well.

Reply #5
Mixing E85 and race fuel

Tuner
Greetings Gentlemen,

You guys need to know that the metallic additives used to raise the octane of gasoline lower the octane of the alcohols. TEL, TML, and MMT are pro-knock in behavior with methanol and ethanol and probably the other alcohols as well. I don’t know for a fact, but I strongly suspect, that MMT is significantly pro-knock in alcohols. I’ve seen and been told of engine wrecks that I know had methanol and MMT involved (and TEL in one).

In Obert’s book he shows the R/M octane numbers of methanol as 106/92 and ethanol as 107/89. The addition of 3ml TEL per gallon of ethanol lowers the 107 to 102. You decide what this means to you when you mix leaded race fuel with alcohol.

The octane behavior of alcohols, like any fuel except pure isooctane, is affected by the AFR. Leaner AFR = lower octane behavior. Good race fuels have well over 100-octane behavior at the worst possible AFR conditions for knock. The alcohols obviously have very low octane behavior at lean AFR’s.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Im not mixing the fuel myself, it's a "specialty" race fuel made by this company:

PowerMist Fuels

They just happen to be local to me and was able to get a 30gal half drum for myself and my track buddy GizmoVR4 to share. It should be a nice "midway" fuel thats significantly better than pump E85 but not as corrosive as methanol. Maybe Im mistaken and he's mixing it with 15% of some crazy unleaded gasoline?

 

[JohnTSI]

Why t your power level do you need anything more that e85?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Why t your power level do you need anything more that e85?

Honestly, this seems like a rhetorical question like "why do you want a 16g when you have a 14b". There is definitely more power to be made with different fuel, it's not like a 300hp 14b car is maxed out on E85. There is power on the table with E85. Fuel isn't like a clutch where XXX capacity is good enough and anything more/better is totally wasted. I don't want to stay at this power level and changing the fuel is one piece of that puzzle.

A: Octane: the engine combo seems to be octane limited. Running a timing curve from 14* to 18*, Im seeing some timing retard up top and had to pull timing out of the map. Im guessing with a higher octane fuel I might be able to squeeze a few hp more out of a more aggressive timing curve. Maybe not, but it sure doesn't hurt to try. I have a direct port nitrous kit on the car that's currently jetted for 115hp. I'v got jets in small increments up to 175 ready to use. With a big nitrous hit, I'd prefer to be already running the highest octane fuel possible simply for safety.

B: Oxygen content. From what I was told, the fuel Im going to run next should have significantly more oxygen content than pump E85. It might pick up 1-2% more power there. Again, "should" but it doesn't hurt to try.

C: Chemical cooling. Last year when I ran 38% methanol mixed into E85 (granted with a E3 16g and a small nitrous hit) It picked up power and mph due to the fuel change. It was a corrosive and logistical pita, hence why Im exploring other fuels. I still may go back to methanol in the end as that likely has the highest potential.

D: Availability. I live in NJ where E85 is not available. Im lucky enough to have a buddy that works in NYC that can bring me a can of E85 from NY pumps, but it's honestly somewhat pita to rely on someone to buy me fuel and transport it every day I want to hit the track. Plus what am I going to do when he goes on vacation for a couple weeks or something and I have to drive into the next state to get a small can of fuel. If I had to actually take my durango 150 miles into NYC and pay $20 toll to buy E85, it might actually be cheaper for me to simply buy the "race E85" local to me or simply run methanol or C16 bought at the racetrack.

But if I wanted to make the absolute most power possible in order to get that 14b record, I sure as hell wouldn't be running on pump E85 when there are other options with more power potential.

At your 1000whp power level......do you not think you could pick up significant power by changing to methanol fuel? Or are you convinced that E85 is the BEST fuel available bar none?

Why would a 300whp be any different?

 

[mebetter]

I've seen DSM's put out well over 700hp on pump e-85 I think race gas mixed with e-85 would be a waste.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I've seen DSM's put out well over 700hp on pump e-85 I think race gas mixed with e-85 would be a waste.

That statement makes about as much sense as this:

"I'v seen GT42 cars make 1000hp without nitrous. I think nitrous is a waste."

"I'v seen streetcars run 9's on DOT radial tires. I think slicks are a waste."

That logic is COMPLETELY missing the point. It's a 14b turbo! we don't have the option of making 700hp on E85. If you want to make record setting runs on a airflow limitied setup, you need to look into every advantage possible including higher octane fuel that will allow you to push the tune harder as well as higher ocygen content fuel that can make a couple percent more power.


Just because E85 pump fuel is "adequate" to make 700hp on a big turbo 4G63 does not mean anything in relation to it being the BEST fuel to make the MOST power any small turbo. It's completely apples to oranges.
If anyone can tell me how more octane, more oxdizer, and more chemical cooling won't help a 14b engine sneek out a tiny bit more power....I'll be fine to say your right. But that's not the case. E85 is simply "adequate"

The 700hp DSM on E85 that you example....I bet it would make 750whp on methanol with no mechanical changes other than tuning and fuel supply. I suppose you would consider that a waste.

Ok....I just dont get why everyone seems to view fuel type as something that you skimp on and run the minimum basic instead of viewing it as another piece of the car worth experimenting with.

 

[1SloEvo]

Nate, you are absolutely correct with your thoughts here. If you want a record, you're going to have to try every route to get there...unless you happen to find the best route early on. As far as the fuel goes, you will need something like that "special" blend you are talking about to make much more power over E85. Something like that, methanol, or even something crazy like alcohol or nitro-meth.

When it comes to E85, the biggest thing here is cost effectiveness. I've seen cars make as much power (sometimes even more) on E85 than the same exact car and setup on C16. E85 right now can be had for around $3.50/gallon here while C16 is more like $12-14/gallon or more depending on your source. So I won't take anything from the fact that E85 is a great fuel for MOST performance cars, but there are a few out there need every little bit of help they can get!

Interested to see how that new fuel turns out!