The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

It really depends on who you talk to about break-in mileage. I plan to put about 500 on mine with the break-in oil recommended by the machine shop, then probably another 1000 or so before tracking it. But I've seen motors that head straight to the track and have no issues. I think in most scenarios if you want it to last as more of a daily driver a decent break-in period is recommended.

 

[Nate Crisman]

honestly, I'v "broken in" my fair share of engines ON the dragstrip and they were fine. When I had a brand new 03 SRT4, I picked it up on tuesday and was at the dragstrip with it on friday night with less than 200 miles on it. Same with the Evo8 in 2004. My talon was often not street registered while it was a trailer queen drag car, in which case it started and idled in the shop then went to the track and made passes without any break in time at all.

I think the best break in is a solid wot blast to seat the rings

Im running 26" x 9.5" x 16" Hoosier quick time pro slicks.

 

[talontd92tsi]

honestly, I'v "broken in" my fair share of engines ON the dragstrip and they were fine. When I had a brand new 03 SRT4, I picked it up on tuesday and was at the dragstrip with it on friday night with less than 200 miles on it. Same with the Evo8 in 2004. My talon was often not street registered while it was a trailer queen drag car, in which case it started and idled in the shop then went to the track and made passes without any break in time at all.

I think the best break in is a solid wot blast to seat the rings

Im running 26" x 9.5" x 16" Hoosier quick time pro slicks.

When I rebuilt my engine this is pretty much how I did it ...

 

[Nate Crisman]

Any thoughts from the gallery on a 2.4L shortblock vs 2.0L shortblock when it comes to 14b/16G record setting?

 

[TwistBrain]

After reading this thread and looking at my budget I have decided to stick with my 14b after my rebuild. In a month I plan to have my engine rebuilt with the help my father. Block needs to be bored and crank cut or polished. Here are the parts I have but not installed:

Evo 8 injectors
Evo 8 fuel pump
Evo 8 intercooler
Ross Pistons
Dsmlink V3 with gm maft cable (picked up for $400 canadian)
boost guage with boost controller
2.5'' cat back exhaust

Need: Eagle H beam rods and wideband o2 sensor

Is the 2g manifold and o2 housing worth upgrading to? Someone local is offering it to me for $75

Any opinions on the setup or things I'm forgetting are appreciated.

 

[SBstar]

^ Sounds like a decent start to me. The 2g manifold is well worth the upgrade, but 75 isn't exactly a deal on it.

Sounds like you have the majority of the starting mods picked out, don't forget about doing all the little maintenance stuff when you rebuild your motor, then just start getting practice.

 

[laser_92]

honestly, I'v "broken in" my fair share of engines ON the dragstrip and they were fine. When I had a brand new 03 SRT4, I picked it up on tuesday and was at the dragstrip with it on friday night with less than 200 miles on it. Same with the Evo8 in 2004. My talon was often not street registered while it was a trailer queen drag car, in which case it started and idled in the shop then went to the track and made passes without any break in time at all.

I think the best break in is a solid wot blast to seat the rings

Im running 26" x 9.5" x 16" Hoosier quick time pro slicks.

How well do the 26" QTP's work with a 14b? I have a set on my awd, and will try them out on the 14b car, but from what I've heard/read the 26" seems big, and most run the 24" tires, especially with the 14b's power. I have some 23.5" Hoosiers on 15" aero race wheels just in case 's the QTP's are too big, in which case they'll stay on my awd.

 

[Nate Crisman]

How well do the 26" QTP's work with a 14b? I have a set on my awd, and will try them out on the 14b car, but from what I've heard/read the 26" seems big, and most run the 24" tires, especially with the 14b's power. I have some 23.5" Hoosiers on 15" aero race wheels just in case 's the QTP's are too big, in which case they'll stay on my awd.

I don't know yet how the 26" tall tires work out with a 14b powerband in a really light awd car. I ran the QTP's a few times last year on my GVR4, but that car is 2800lb and has a t3t4 making mid 120's mph. Even if the gearing wasn't optimal, the 60' traction advantage vs street tires was ridiculous. Would it have gone faster on 24" tall tires, maybe, but the QTP's were such a steal used I had no choice.

I'm real interested to head what Dave & Phil have to say about .4L of added displacement

 

[SBstar]

.4L of displacement will of course make a difference. I don't believe it will be a huge gain but it definately won't hurt anywhere. The stroker is another one of those asterisks such as nitrous in my opinion, but we've already had that discussion! I don't see where the 2.4 would lose anything anywhere in the powerband, but can see where it would gain. Just not my cup-o-tea...but go for it!

 

[Black_Bullet]

On a car not revving out, it should always make more power with the stroker over the 2.0, or at least make the power easier. A stroker on a small turbo like a 14b would be nuts as far as spool goes, nor will the turbo be able to hold boost at all, but tats not really a bad thing. It will just be maxing out the turbo at a lower psi, which I believe also makes the tuning more pump gas friendly.

 

[pneumo]

I've never fully sorted out how a stroker would perform with a 14b. I'm a believer that high revs make for good track times and the 2.4 engine might use up the turbos flow earier. I don't know for sure. I've even though about using 1.6 DOHC engine out of a mirage to keep the boost up higher in the rev range, but a 1.6 engine would kill the purity of a DSM acheivement.

The 2G O2 housing is only a minimal improvement over the 1G housing. I'd rather just port out the stocker, or get a larger O2 housing like the EVO3 or ebay O2 dump housing.

 

[Phil1320]

I'm real interested to head what Dave & Phil have to say about .4L of added displacement

Hi Nate- well.....I would think that the 2.4 with my set up would definitely show a considerable difference.......with stock cams/smaller cams and stock intake manifold. I would assume a decent torque gain. But, I'm already producing some pretty good torque at 337 at the ground. So, maybe the difference wouldn't translate into speed at the track, just on paper maybe.

With SMIM, 272's, and headwork etc.- parts that move the power band up in rpm, I can't say that the 2.4 would help. Without having hands on or driving experience, I can only speculate here. You would think a displacement bump would help any set up, but, with losing revs....

As far as the record goes......we've established that there can be so many "mini" categories to break the record down into on our same 14b turbos. This is a tough one. It used to be so simple...but now, there are so many different variables being brought into play. I think the 2.4L is just another one of those variables. If you run fast on a 2.4, you ran fast, that's it. I think the NOS vs. NO NOS is a bigger overall difference than 2.0 vs. 2.4. If you run a record run on the 2.4....say 10.75...that would still account for the quickest 14b powered DSM run(NO NOS) to date. I suppose it's really what your overall goal is and if it will matter to you what ideas and powerplant choices you employ to reach the goal. For instance, I remember Dave kind of discounting his 11 second record runs because his engine was so modified.....hey, that's what it took to get to that point with his street driven DSM. Not a big deal. It just so happens that my stock engine has lasted, therefore, I choose the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" as to not mess with it's integrity---and yes, I believe this will hold me to a certain ET....and my current best might be it.

As much as we all have similar(same) goals to run quicker, it's obvious that we all have a bit of our own flavor in our set ups.

I'd say it would be interesting to see what the 2.4 would be like with the 14b, and if it makes for record passes, well, then you just opened another door in the room of possibilities for going fast on the 14b.

 

[talontd92tsi]

There are so many asterisk categories that it becomes a pissing battle. Sidemount, fmic, cams, stock block, built block, 2.0/2.3/2.4/2.1, nitrous, slicks, racegas/e85 whatever. Someone says "I got the record on a 14b" someone responds oh yeah, well i was THIS close and i had xxx less mods than you, so your record shouldn't count, blah blah blah.

It really doesn't matter to me. If someone goes [email protected] on a 14b, regardless of mods that's how fast they went. Granted, fuel is a big variable, but if you want to go as FAST as possible, racegas/e85 is going to be a requirement, and if you REALLY want to get the record for SURE, nitrous wouldn't be a bad idea either.

There aren't that many other mods I can really do to my engine to really push the 14b much harder, yes I know, built engine, ported head, better FMIC, SMIM, and cams, but honestly how much do we know for SURE that those things help a 14b car. Cams might help, but they might just move the usable power band higher in the RPM range, the built engine will make power too, but its not something I'm willing to do just yet.

/rant

Of course, this is all my opinion, and I have been wrong before.

 

[SBstar]

In the end it's all opinion. But what really matters is ET and mph isn't it.

What's unfortunate is that there is way of testing every piece to see what is working at what isn't. We see Dave throw a setup on his car and run mid 11's that is more suited for a large turbo. Then we see Phil with very very few mods run mid 11's as well. Obviously we can see Dave was making more power in his traps speeds, but we can't pinpoint which mod or mods that power is coming from. I think there are many things we know work, and many things which have yet to be tested fully. Personally I don't think any of us can go wrong copying what has worked before and maybe adding a little bit of our own to it. When it comes down to actually taking the record, it's going to be the person who has the most money to throw at it continuously, sticks with it, and finds that perfect setup by changing things and testing things often. But the key in that will be the "sticks with it" part.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Well, Im going to take some more smart people's thoughts on the subject before I make any firm choices. I have a G4CS block/crank at my disposal if I want to go this route. Im also trying to take into consideration that my longterm plans are Evo3 16G record chasing, the "dinky turbo & tin can" class at the shootout, then a bigger turbo setup to run at the Etown, NJ Mitsu Showdown race in the late fall. I'm trying to keep the long term setup in the back of my mind so that I don't have to "redo" things later on in the season. If I do a 2.4L now, I'd have the option to go real high on the compression as well to make a significant power gain. If I run a 2.0 then my tendency is to just stick a stock 7.8:1 shortblock in there due to cost.

using an online speed/gear calculator:
26" tall tire & 120mph trap speed = 6300rpm
24" tall tire & 120mph trap speed = 6900rpm.
I'm kinda financially stuck with the 26" tall QTP's.

I wasn't really asking the opinion of "if it's a 2.4, does the record count", I was more asking for opinions in respect to "do you think the 2.4L has any advantage in the flow/rpm range that we will be operating a 14b in." As far as Im concerned, there are 2 and only 2 records to be broken:

• 14B with nitrous
• 14b without nitrous

Everything else: streetcar vs racecar, lightweight vs full weight, pumpgas vs racegas, stock motor vs built motor, 2.0 vs 2.4, street tires vs slicks are all fair game.

 

[Phil1320]

In the end it's all opinion. But what really matters is ET and mph isn't it.

That, it is. I think what matters most is ET. Trap speed really doesn't matter as much I think only because you can have great traps but not be the quickest....like I'm pretty sure Rob H. went 11.83@119 in his FWD. I've run within one tenth of a second ET on two different passes, with a full 3 mph trap speed difference. Don't get me wrong, nice MPH is cool, and an important comparison. But, in my opinion, this is more about time to distance than time to speed, at least when we are talking of records. My run and Dave's run are .02 seconds apart but the mph difference is like 4.2 mph. I'm not sure what Dave's highest MPH is on the 14b but if it's the 118.1 than my highest MPH is kinda close at 116.85, but like you said, we are totally different in set-up. He's heavier with alot more power, I'm lighter with alot less power.

I wasn't really asking the opinion of "if it's a 2.4, does the record count", I was more asking for opinions in respect to "do you think the 2.4L has any advantage in the flow/rpm range that we will be operating a 14b in." As far as Im concerned, there are 2 and only 2 records to be broken:

• 14B with nitrous
• 14b without nitrous

Everything else: streetcar vs racecar, lightweight vs full weight, pumpgas vs racegas, stock motor vs built motor, 2.0 vs 2.4, street tires vs slicks are all fair game.

Sorry about that, guess I misunderstood. Honestly then, I'll plead the 5th on this one as I have zero experience with stroker motors of any kind. I will say that I like an engine that revs though.

I agree with you about your overview about the records, when it's all said and done. Sure there can be categories and such as you've listed above but ultimately the two numbers to beat are:

10.61 NOS
10.84 NO NOS

It really should be that cut and dry. All the other variables, as much as they do have significance....do still have their place.....are not records per se'. I don't think everyone would be in agreement here, or maybe they would.

I have remained in my own mind that my 11.49 pass is not a record. It's second quickest and I'm happy with that.

That would be Joe Bucci in his FWD Laser.
It's been the fastest 14B car period, thus far.

14b record: 10.841 @ 126.63
14b with Nitrous record: 10.610 @ 131.79

From the first page of this thread.....

 

[talontd92tsi]

Well, Im going to take some more smart people's thoughts on the subject before I make any firm choices. I have a G4CS block/crank at my disposal if I want to go this route. Im also trying to take into consideration that my longterm plans are Evo3 16G record chasing, the "dinky turbo & tin can" class at the shootout, then a bigger turbo setup to run at the Etown, NJ Mitsu Showdown race in the late fall. I'm trying to keep the long term setup in the back of my mind so that I don't have to "redo" things later on in the season. If I do a 2.4L now, I'd have the option to go real high on the compression as well to make a significant power gain. If I run a 2.0 then my tendency is to just stick a stock 7.8:1 shortblock in there due to cost.

using an online speed/gear calculator:
26" tall tire & 120mph trap speed = 6300rpm
24" tall tire & 120mph trap speed = 6900rpm.
I'm kinda financially stuck with the 26" tall QTP's.

With what you said here, I am inclined to think that the stroker setup will be better for your particular setup. The taller tire (and subsequent gear ratio difference) might be better for the stroker due to the higher torque generally achieved with a stroker. On the other hand, a 14b is making decent power at 6300 on a 2.0L engine. I think its up to whether the 14b would run out of steam before 6300 on a stroker setup. I have very little experience with strokers but it seems like it might work.

10.61 NOS
10.84 NO NOS

It really should be that cut and dry. All the other variables, as much as they do have significance....do still have their place.....are not records per se'. I don't think everyone would be in agreement here, or maybe they would.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[laser_92]

^^^ I agree with Phil here too, The 14b record has no restrictions included other than 14b, and whether it was with nitrous or not. It should be just that, anything else goes. No one even said it had to be a dsm....? Could be done with a mirage/colt as far as I'm concerned. As long as it's mitsu related (ie. not crx's etc. obv.)

 

[pneumo]

Nate, I think you might be onto something. The combination of 26" tire with a high compression stroker might work well together if you use an alcohol fuel.

 

[Phil1320]

^^^ I agree with Phil here too, The 14b record has no restrictions included other than 14b, and whether it was with nitrous or not. It should be just that, anything else goes. No one even said it had to be a dsm....? Could be done with a mirage/colt as far as I'm concerned. As long as it's mitsu related (ie. not crx's etc. obv.)

The Mirage/Colt thing is definitely a cool alternative consideration and could definitely be the lightest possible choice out there for a 14b powered car....something that the 1G's can't match in that respect, that's for sure. So, I'd think even a 14b powered 4G61 Mirage/Colt lightened could hit 11's. Something to think about for sure. I have always liked those cars. Based on curb weights it appears that a fully gutted Mirage would enjoy about a 200 lb.+ weight advantage over a fully gutted FWD T/E/L maybe more. When getting into more speed though....the T/E/L is definitely more aerodynamic car...so there's that end of it too.

Overall, The easiest comparo's, even with all the latest variables introduced, are with the cars that came with the 14b as the stock issue turbo....T/E/L and GVR4. Therefore, this is where most of my interest lies.

 

[pneumo]

Since we're opening this conversation to other platforms I just want to say that I wish Mitsubishi made a motorcycle.

 

[laser_92]

I'll second that

 

[Phil1320]

Since we're opening this conversation to other platforms I just want to say that I wish Mitsubishi made a motorcycle.

Hehe. Now we're getting crazy!

I'd be interested to know what the consensus is on all this, seriously.

Is it is broad as "14b powered," that is the consideration?

Or, is it DSM with 14b power?

Mitsubishi anything with 14b power?

As I said above, I'm most interested in the vehicles which came with the 14b as the stock issue turbo, wether it be FWD or AWD. Using these vehicles in direct comparison is hard enough anymore. I realize that on the times list, it is purely "14b." Regardless of what car, as the 3000GT's are on the same list with twin 14b's.

I'm just curious what all of your takes on this are. I would imagine our opinions may all differ. I guess the point I'm trying to throw out there is that I can bolt a 14b powered 4G63 into an Ariel Atom with slicks and it would probably be the quickest 14b powered vehicle ever. Would that be a significant achievement relative to what's been accomplished so far? Where do we draw the line?

Do we care? Should there be a distinction? A DSM 14b list. An anything goes 14b list. Or everything just in one pot? I do know that the lists used to distinguish DSM from 4G63 powered, or from the overall quickest list.

I think it's true that even though so far we are all driving DSM's, it sometimes is still an apples to oranges comparison even though the core is 4G63/14b.

Ideas? Opinions? Gripes? Concerns? Overall thoughts?

 

[TSimage]

6G72s have 9bs not 14bs but I think it should be a "stock turbo" quest meaning cars that came with the 14b stock, if not then you might as well shove a 4g in a civic hatch back.. that's just my opinion.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My feeling is a colt/mirage, Galant FWD or AWD, even like an Evolution 1-3.....even maybe the hyundia accent...any of the cars that the 4G63 came in or can be bolted into with nothing crazy custom is a valid record platform with the 4G63 engine and a single 14b. These platforms all have a DSM feel to them and only the Evo1-3 should be any significant advantage being AWD and possibly lighter than a 1g AWD. All the other FWD cars, while lighter, have to deal with traction issues.

3000GT with twin 14b's IMHO don't count for the record we are all shooting for any more than a DSM with a twin 14b setup would. Having 2X the turbo flow sort of defeats the whole limitation that the record implies. To me a 3KGT has about as much to do with this record as a 9second mustang going down the track with a 14B bouncing around in the trunk.

Im sure the same think could be said about an ariel atom w/ 4G63/14b, a hyabusa with a 14b, a tube dragster with 4G63/14b.

Personally, I view this whole 14b record chasing to be pushing the limits of modifications to a platform that many of us started with a complete or nearly stock car like Phil has done. It's gotten very far from that now with some of us purpose building cars with the record in mind, but still has a "this is stock platform" feel for me that a civic with a 4G63/14b doesnt. But to each his own.