The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[TSimage]

All these cars are modified to some degree beyond a basic stock representation. Daves motor was built but his car was closest to a stock representation. Phils car is a tin can drag car at this point but his mods are minimal besides the o2 dump and Joe represented a fully built car and motor both to the absolute extremes.. I believe Phils car with Daves build and tuning but with all supporting mods would without a doubt give Joes record a run. We can't negate anyone for modifying their cars as such when the person with the record has the most radical ride of all. I think both Phil and Dave represent more realistic accomplishments and should be congratulated as such. But I'm sure someone will beat those records and I don't doubt someone will eventually take down Joe, but its going to require a lot of juice or an equally crazy car, for that reason alone id venture to say his nitrous run is probably the most attainable of the 2.

Id like to think of this as "stock turbo" battle.. stock appearing class cars. Things like mirages/colts or expos/vistas even starions/conquest don't qualify with motor swaps and or didn't come turbo to begin with.

I suppose until someone comes in with one of those cars, its a toss up.

 

[laser_92]

I think as long as it came with a 4g, it's all the same. 3k's are out, Not that anyone seems to be trying to break the 14b record with a 2g, you could, and if the rule is that it must have come with a 14b then it too would be out. Which wouldn't be right. There's more to it that that. If it had to have come with a 14b then that only gives a few cars the chance. But at the same time, if you allowed anything with a 4g would you also need to include evo's? Seems to me that it's be pretty easy to break the awd record with one after minumal modding, cutting a few pounds, and swapping turbo's. I'm at a loss. There's exceptions for every rule. We should just make it a 1g rule, only allowable color being black, I'm safe then

*Side note... Anyone weighed their 14b fwd contender w/o engine and trans? I was plesently surprised. I'm eighther ahead of the game, or 4g engines weigh more than I realized.. It's even caged and I can lift the rear tires over a foot off the ground by myself! (lifted from the rear tube bumper I made)

 

[Phil1320]

6G72s have 9bs not 14bs but I think it should be a "stock turbo" quest meaning cars that came with the 14b stock, if not then you might as well shove a 4g in a civic hatch back.. that's just my opinion.

"Overall, The easiest comparo's, even with all the latest variables introduced, are with the cars that came with the 14b as the stock issue turbo....T/E/L and GVR4. Therefore, this is where most of my interest lies." -me

I realize that....what I'm saying is that there are currently 3000 VR4's with 14b's that are on the all time 14b list. I'm in agreement that it should be a "stock turbo" quest as well. But, true, it leaves the 2G's out. And the thing is that other cars may be able to be lightened beyond what we can muster with a DSM giving a clear advantage to a platform that never came with the turbo, or the engine for that matter in some cases. It's all a matter of how many variables considered in the pot.

I don't know, it's a tough one. But for the above reasons, I kinda lean toward: Talon - Eclipse - Laser - Galant VR4 - the cars that were sold here in the U.S. with 14b's. Putting a 14b on an Evo 1-3 is like us bolting on the 13 from the A/T cars, IMHO.

I would not discount a 4G61-63 Mirage/Colt run, but it's tough to see how it would be comparable. I would imagine a 2000 lb. race weight is not out of the question with those cars. You know though.....it would still be really cool to see.

Daves motor was built but his car was closest to a stock representation.

I see your point here, however this is pretty contradictory. As a whole, to the naked eye, I agree.

I believe Phils car with Daves build and tuning but with all supporting mods would without a doubt give Joes record a run.

Id like to think of this as "stock turbo" battle.. stock appearing class cars. Things like mirages/colts or expos/vistas even starions/conquest don't qualify with motor swaps and or didn't come turbo to begin with.

You would think that combo would do the trick....

Yeah, I can't get that out of my head either with the other models. I mean, the Mirage/Colt, really is the closest to the DSM, obviously, and so that one would be a consideration for sure, but not without 2G DSM's in the mix.

Either way, it's a cool conversation and hearing everyone's thoughts is enlightening.

 

[pneumo]

I just thought it would be cool to put a turbo on a bike.

 

[laser_92]

I just thought it would be cool to put a turbo on a bike.

Like Honda did in the 80's?

 

[Phil1320]

I just thought it would be cool to put a turbo on a bike.

Turbo bikes are crazy. Hahn Racecraft kits used Mitsubishi turbos. A friend of mine designed and built a turbo kit for a Yamaha R6 using a 16g. Bikes without turbos are fast enough! My old Ninja put down 148 HP to the rear wheel with a total weight of around 740 lbs. Needless to say, it was fast, to me, and had no problem hitting 175 mph+ on some highway entrance ramps. Friends with turboed bikes laying down 350-500 HP lay 200 ft. strips down on the pavement at well over 100 mph. I watch in amazement. Not sure what's crazier, the bike, or the riders.

Ok, so, 14b on a 6hp go-kart engine...anyone?

Like Honda did in the 80's?

And Kawasaki.....


14B 14B 14B 14B 14B -- me keeping on topic

 

[DJ23GSX]

Ok, so, 14b on a 6hp go-kart engine...anyone?

Been tried already
Turbo'd Briggs on Methanol. DSM 14B turbo making - Car Videos on StreetFire

Lame video i doubt that engine could spool that much boost even idk. Looked pretty slow to me.


I agree 100% that the record should be "stock turboed" vehicles that came with the 14b from the factory. While it nice seeing people bolt on 14b's to other vehicles I think for the record we need to stick to the basics and keep it simple. My vote goes to T/E/L and GVR4's FWD or AWD. I don't know what to think of a 2g with a 14b cause technically it is an upgraded turbo for them.

 

[Phil1320]

Been tried already
Turbo'd Briggs on Methanol. DSM 14B turbo making - Car Videos on StreetFire

Lame video i doubt that engine could spool that much boost even idk. Looked pretty slow to me.


I agree 100% that the record should be "stock turboed" vehicles that came with the 14b from the factory. While it nice seeing people bolt on 14b's to other vehicles I think for the record we need to stick to the basics and keep it simple. My vote goes to T/E/L and GVR4's FWD or AWD. I don't know what to think of a 2g with a 14b cause technically it is an upgraded turbo for them.

That's right I remember seeing that! Unreal.

This is why I was interested in hearing everyone's opinion on this subject of what vehicles should be in consideration. I mean, ultimately, anyone can do whatever they want, obviously. I like what you say, "I think for the record we need to stick to the basics and keep it simple."

So, I guess it would come down to "Stock Turbo," or "14b powered." Those would be the distinctions.

I do remember when some guys were getting pretty crazy with pushing the 2G stock turbo thing with the T25....with some running in the 12's. That is the "stock turbo" category for the 2G. Again, pretty cut and dry. But, this is the way I see it as well. Opening this up to any platform that utilizes the 4G series engines, or any platform that they can bolt into, I think really throws alot of inconsistency into the overall course of the whole 14b arena. This is not to discredit any accomplishments past and future of other platforms, just to better categorize the accomplishments knowing that the starting points were similar or the same. In this arena, at this level, I can't say that the weight advantage of a front wheel drive is a wash because of traction. We all know that full race FWD cars can cut 60's with the best of them, so I think the FWD at this level actually has the advantage therefore can be thrown right in the mix with the AWD. Sure, a 14b powered street driven, street tired, heavier FWD car won't 60 with a comperable AWD, but we are WAY past that when it comes to trying to hit low 11's or 10's with a FWD platform. I might say that the only excpetion/distinction COULD be the Galant VR4 as it starts out heavier, and is at an aero disadvantage when compared to the T/E/L's. But, depending on how far some might take it, it could be right in the mix with some of the quickest out there and then the distinction becomes unneccessary. With the quickest known VR4 on "stock turbo" at 12.3, it's hard to make a call on that just yet.

 

[SBstar]

Honestly I think that any car with a 14b/4g63 combo could "claim" the record. Even non-dsm platforms. However, in the end we're all going to have the most respect for a 14b/4g63 combo in a T/E/L aren't we? Isn't that what we're all about here? I'll praise someone for running faster in a CSM or even throwing it in the aforementioned Ariel Atom but the record I'll still care the most about will be from a T/E/L.

Going back a little ways, having thought it over more. I would venture to guess that a high compression motor with alcohol based fuel (methanol) would have advantages over the stroker. But I suppose you could combine the two eh?

 

[Phil1320]

Honestly I think that any car with a 14b/4g63 combo could "claim" the record. Even non-dsm platforms. However, in the end we're all going to have the most respect for a 14b/4g63 combo in a T/E/L aren't we? Isn't that what we're all about here? I'll praise someone for running faster in a CSM or even throwing it in the aforementioned Ariel Atom but the record I'll still care the most about will be from a T/E/L.

Going back a little ways, having thought it over more. I would venture to guess that a high compression motor with alcohol based fuel (methanol) would have advantages over the stroker. But I suppose you could combine the two eh?

I see your point, but, yes, in the end, the most repect by me will definitely be to the T/E/L and GVR4.

As far as the stroker....I would think a displacement bump would be advantageous, but without using that 2.4 crank. For instance the common bump for the Nissan SR20 is from 2.0 to 2.2, something that still revs endlessly. I understand that the feeling is that the stroker caters to the powerband of the 14b. This is just my thought on it.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I really suppose there are 2 ways to look at this record. Fastest 14b powered vehicle or fastest stock turbo vehicle. The way I'd look at it is if your chasing down the fastest 14b powered vehicle then that would open it up to any 14b powered car dsm or not. If your chasing the fastest stock issued turbo record then that will cut a lot of cars out of the running. I mean this is a dsm forum so why not just leave it at the fastest stock turboed dsm? As stated previously I'd respect any record but I'd appreciate a dsm quite a bit more if it held the record.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Why is everyone looking so far into it? If it has a 14b its good to go. "The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread" There i just made it easy for everyone =P

 

[Phil1320]

Why is everyone looking so far into it? If it has a 14b its good to go. "The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread" There i just made it easy for everyone =P

I didn't think I needed to designate 14b *DSM* Drag Racing Discussion Thread as we are in the dsmtuners forum.

I think it's relevant because so many variables are being tossed in the basket these days vs. even last year. When comparing T/E/L's, it all comes from the same starting point. To throw a car in the mix that is 600 lbs. lighter from the start, with an engine and turbo swap, IMHO should not garner the same record title. It's like taking a '92 Civic hatch and popping a K20 under the hood and then comparing it to the RSX S that is several hundred pounds heavier that came with the engine "stock." I just keep coming back to this whenever I try to justify other platforms being in the run for records.

I really suppose there are 2 ways to look at this record. Fastest 14b powered vehicle or fastest stock turbo vehicle. The way I'd look at it is if your chasing down the fastest 14b powered vehicle then that would open it up to any 14b powered car dsm or not. If your chasing the fastest stock issued turbo record then that will cut a lot of cars out of the running. I mean this is a dsm forum so why not just leave it at the fastest stock turboed dsm? As stated previously I'd respect any record but I'd appreciate a dsm quite a bit more if it held the record.

Agreed.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Why is everyone looking so far into it? If it has a 14b its good to go. "The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread" There i just made it easy for everyone =P

Isn't that what we're doing? Discussing what the record should be. Am I wrong? I'm standing firm on if it came with a 14b in stock form your in the running and if not your out. Of course I won't be anywhere near these records myself but being a dsm'r for over 10 years why not keep it a dsm exclusive record? I mean does any other U.S. vehicle come with a 14b in stock trim besides a dsm/gvr4?

 

[pneumo]

If I ran a 14b on a bike and got some ridiculously fast time there would be 2 reactions from the forums. First would be the people saying 'wow that's fast!' Then there would be the reaction that it's not a DSM record since there's no connection between a bike and the 14b. I mean, if I put a 14b on a bike, why not use another turbo? All the parts to get it working would be full custom parts. It's not a bolt-on upgrade. So it would be cool, but it couldn't claim the 14b record.

Claiming a 'stock turbo record' carries more weight since almost every other turbo car on the road came with a seriously weak stock turbo, except for the EVO. Sometimes we forget how much potential the 1G has.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Claiming a 'stock turbo record' carries more weight since almost every other turbo car on the road came with a seriously weak stock turbo, except for the EVO. Sometimes we forget how much potential the 1G has.

You pretty much nailed my thoughts exactly.

 

[Nate Crisman]

If I ran a 14b on a bike and got some ridiculously fast time there would be 2 reactions from the forums. First would be the people saying 'wow that's fast!' Then there would be the reaction that it's not a DSM record since there's no connection between a bike and the 14b. I mean, if I put a 14b on a bike, why not use another turbo? All the parts to get it working would be full custom parts. It's not a bolt-on upgrade. So it would be cool, but it couldn't claim the 14b record.

Claiming a 'stock turbo record' carries more weight since almost every other turbo car on the road came with a seriously weak stock turbo, except for the EVO. Sometimes we forget how much potential the 1G has.

Dave brings up something that had not even crossed my mind yet:

Is Joe Bucci's 10.64 ET the fastest of ANY car with a stock turbo?

Have RX7's, toyota supra, GN's or any porsche run faster on the orignal equipment turbo?

Edit: answered my own question: modern evo's likely hold that record. Curt Brown went 10.59 on the stock evo8 turbo. Im going to be that if any of us are able to beat the 10.84 14B record, we aren't going to beat it by THAT much to become any overall record holder of "any car w/ stock turbo"

 

[SBstar]

^ You had me going for a minute, then I hit the evo part!

Overall though it's pretty impressive and does remind you of how much potential this platform has. There simply isn't another vehicle out there with as much potential on stock parts is there? At least for straight line racing. Obviously the evo took it a step further, but for a 20 year old car, that ain't too shabby!

I keep getting nickle and dimed on this putting the motor back together project. Deciding to make sure I cut no corners means replacing alot of little maintenance stuff. Just ordered new coolant hoses. Not worth keeping the old 20 year old stock ones on there anymore. Hopefully the end of next week we'll be dropping it back in the engine bay though. Hoping to have enough break-in for a couple early season passes in April or early May.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I keep getting nickle and dimed on this putting the motor back together project.

Its a dsm isn't that how its supposed to be I'm in the same boat the more I tear into this car the more crap I'm finding wrong.

 

[laser_92]

Me too, I just dropped my innernds of at the machine shop for balancing, and the car will be getting paint in about a month. ( as soon as my other 1g gets back from the same place with fresh paint)
Currently shopping for fuel lines and pumps etc. for alcohol...

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

I hope the machine shop calls me monday so i can get my beast all ready to go! Spent a lot of money this season, made the car as light as possible (no carbon hood or lexan hatch yet). Been looking at wheels and tires now for a few weeks. I really hope to see this car at low 2300 or high 2200 lbs.

Ill get pics of the engine as it goes back together. Also plan on making a nice little video of her .

 

[Phil1320]

I hope the machine shop calls me monday so i can get my beast all ready to go! Spent a lot of money this season, made the car as light as possible (no carbon hood or lexan hatch yet). Been looking at wheels and tires now for a few weeks. I really hope to see this car at low 2300 or high 2200 lbs.

Ill get pics of the engine as it goes back together. Also plan on making a nice little video of her .

Sounds like awesome progress, looking forward to the video

 

[Nate Crisman]

I hope the machine shop calls me monday so i can get my beast all ready to go! Spent a lot of money this season, made the car as light as possible (no carbon hood or lexan hatch yet). Been looking at wheels and tires now for a few weeks. I really hope to see this car at low 2300 or high 2200 lbs.

Ill get pics of the engine as it goes back together. Also plan on making a nice little video of her .

Ditto on pics, specifically all over the car, as Im VERY interested to see what a 2200lb AWD DSM looks like. Has this car been on a scale yet and if so, are you keeping track of weight loss as you do things?

 

[Hubbell91Tsi]

I am no longer keeping track of the weight lost. I'll get pics next week if I can! I'm trying to get Nate at tpg to weigh the car at Wyotech asap!

Ditto on pics, specifically all over the car, as Im VERY interested to see what a 2200lb AWD DSM looks like. Has this car been on a scale yet and if so, are you keeping track of weight loss as you do things?

 

[Honto]

1992 Eagle Talon AWD

6 Bolt Eagle/Wiseco 8.3
FMIC
MBC
Exhaust
Bov
4 spider diff
Race Tranny
ACT 2600
Evo 9 Fuel Pump

Pump gas, stock head/cams, stock ecu, no tuning, 13-14psi

1.8 13.2 @ ??
1.8 13.3 @ 101
1.8 13.3 @ 96
1.8 13.3 @ 92

Scale at Raceway Park, NJ said 3,156 and i weigh 165. Full interior, power windows, manual locks, no ABS. Im going to check that against another scale soon.

The clutch wouldn't hold up the launches, also my trans wouldn't let me shift hard into 4th. I changed the clutch disk out for new and new trans fluid last night. Grabs MUCH better. I'll be back to the track on tuesday for that 12.9 timeslip. Ill post the timeslips tomorrow.

More info on the car:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/welcome-forum-member-intros/362917-finished-my-talon-tsi-awd.html