The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

Likely because their 16g started off in a plastic bag w/ zero miles in the last couple years rather than starting life in 1989 and spending ~150k miles boosting an oem 1g with questionable service&care.

Good point, I've looked at "new" 14b's and there just isn't any sense to me in spending that kind of coin on a 14b. Especially since at the time an Evo III was the same price! Let's all hope our old 14b's hold up!

 

[91stocker]

Last year I experimented with trying a few more psi a couple times and found gains each time. However, I'm inclined to believe there will be a point where forcing a few more psi out isn't going to net any gain, too much hot air, failure of the turbo, etc will probably be the results. I know the guys over at english threw their 14b on and it failed on the 2nd pass when they wired the wastegate flapper shut. The little turbo just can't handle being spun to the max. Even though we're all looking for the maximum out of this little guy, none of us want a 1 hit wonder. With that said I know alot of the 16g guys seem to get away with wiring it shut and going for broke for multiple passes, not sure what is different about the internals but it seems like something makes them last vs. the 14b.

Well, that sure is making rethink that idea. I knew it would shorten its life. But killing it in two passes, wow.

 

[1qkfwd]

Wow I missed so much and only got one notification. Time to catch up with the convo.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Good point, I've looked at "new" 14b's and there just isn't any sense to me in spending that kind of coin on a 14b. Especially since at the time an Evo III was the same price! Let's all hope our old 14b's hold up!

Fresh bearings, good oil, and proper oil pressure go a long way...

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf

 

[1qkfwd]

Phil your upgrade path isnt what all of us do. But its proven and very reliable. You chose the parts that the car has to have to make a big jump forward. The more logical way about it. A very resectable path and not the one hit wonder.

I know the turbo may only be a $100 turbo, but that doesnt mean it needs to hit kill mode everytime it hits the track. These turbos are old and hard to find. Another thing is why push a turbo to its max when the rest of the car hasnt seen its full potential? I think that wiring or welding the wastegate shut is a huge waste.

I know for me its only a matter of time before I spit my compressor nut off to. The only turbo I could find that was in great shape was this 90 turbo. So Ill be right behind you Phil pretty soon.

Here Nathan, My lexan job. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm...tealing-14b-record-build-2.html#post153188303

 

[Phil1320]

Last year I experimented with trying a few more psi a couple times and found gains each time. However, I'm inclined to believe there will be a point where forcing a few more psi out isn't going to net any gain, too much hot air, failure of the turbo, etc will probably be the results. I know the guys over at english threw their 14b on and it failed on the 2nd pass when they wired the wastegate flapper shut. The little turbo just can't handle being spun to the max. Even though we're all looking for the maximum out of this little guy, none of us want a 1 hit wonder. With that said I know alot of the 16g guys seem to get away with wiring it shut and going for broke for multiple passes, not sure what is different about the internals but it seems like something makes them last vs. the 14b.

What was your max PSI?

I guess i didn't realize anyone would be that worried about a $100 turbo on a record chasing drag car.

Especially considering everyone is already over spinning the hell out of these little guys.

But i suppose trying to lengthen its life is a good enough reason.

Its worked out fine for you so far.

Well, considering I had the 'luxury' of buying my car from the original owner with only 39,800 miles on the clock, I never thought about it as a $100 turbo. And if you're buying a $100 turbo to go out and break records with, it's probably not gonna get the job done. If it does, it probably won't do it again. I put about 46,000 miles on my Talon since I've owned it, with oil changes all at 3,000 miles or less. Like I said, if it weren't for the compressor nut, I'd still have the original turbo on the car. It had normal shaft play and was obviously making power. The other thing is that I only ran 20-21 psi at the strip, on the street, I'd back it off to 15-16, also contributing to it's long life. Alot of people just plain abuse cars. I'm not one of them.

 

[1qkfwd]

Do you guys know which turbo has the reverse threaded nut and which ones the regular threaded nut on the 14B?

I know the 90 is different from the others. I know mine is the one prone to loosening up so I plan to make sure its tight at all times.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil your upgrade path isnt what all of us do. But its proven and very reliable. You chose the parts that the car has to have to make a big jump forward. The more logical way about it. A very resectable path and not the one hit wonder.

I know the turbo may only be a $100 turbo, but that doesnt mean it needs to hit kill mode everytime it hits the track. These turbos are old and hard to find. Another thing is why push a turbo to its max when the rest of the car hasnt seen its full potential? I think that wiring or welding the wastegate shut is a huge waste.

I know for me its only a matter of time before I spit my compressor nut off to. The only turbo I could find that was in great shape was this 90 turbo. So Ill be right behind you Phil pretty soon.

Here Nathan, My lexan job. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dsm...tealing-14b-record-build-2.html#post153188303

Well, no doubt, as I just stated above...I've been on the stock turbo from the start, and I just kept rolling with it....even selling a big 16g and an FP Green I had on the shelf. I just kept at it. Obviously, most of the group here has taken 14b's and put them back on cars, some already on big turbo set-ups, in order to contend. So, most couldn't take my same path, even though there are still some box stock dsm's out there. Many, are just cutting right to the chase to be right in the hunt. And, why would anyone waste the time at this point...

Do you guys know which turbo has the reverse threaded nut and which ones the regular threaded nut on the 14B?

I know the 90 is different from the others. I know mine is the one prone to loosening up so I plan to make sure its tight at all times.

IIRC it's the one with ''010'' stamped into the comp. housing...

 

[1qkfwd]

Ya I knew the stamp number. Now which direction are the threads on the 1010 turbo shaft??

Well, no doubt, as I just stated above...I've been on the stock turbo from the start, and I just kept rolling with it....even selling a big 16g and an FP Green I had on the shelf. I just kept at it. Obviously, most of the group here has taken 14b's and put them back on cars, some already on big turbo set-ups, in order to contend. So, most couldn't take my same path, even though there are still some box stock dsm's out there. Many, are just cutting right to the chase to be right in the hunt. And, why would anyone waste the time at this point...

Smart move sticking with the stocker. This is my plan with the evo. Just drive it and enjoy it. Mod only what the car really needs next.

 

[SBstar]

I've never ran anything larger then the 14b, I ran a 13g on an auto laser I had for a while. So I kind of followed the upgrade at a time path, but alot quicker then even Phil did!

I started at 20 psi in 2012, turned it to 21 and hit 11's on the first drag trip gained .6mph from 20-21 psi. The next trip I turned it up from 21-22 and gained .6 mph again. Those are comparisons to the pass directly before turning the knob. The gains however stayed equal and in the case of 21-22 psi actually went to .9 mph gain in later passes on the same evening. Also the gains from 20-21 remained constant on the next track visit prior to turning it up to 22. So overall from 20-22 psi I gained 1.5 mph...ish. It was enough to go from 12.1 to 11.8 on the street tires. I don't know if there will be more gains with more boost as I'm sure there will be a limit. Of course switching to lighter wheels and slicks resulted in another .8mph gain with no tuning or boost changes.

 

[1qkfwd]

How quick did you get the 13g auto car??

Also what did the boost taper off to in the higher rpm ranges??

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

I've never ran a turbo other then the 14b either. I have ran without a turbo though, . I don't plan on running the 14b forever. Maybe another year or two. Then I would like to get into something larger.

 

[SBstar]

How quick did you get the 13g auto car??

Also what did the boost taper off to in the higher rpm ranges??

I never "ran" the 13g auto, just meant on all my dsms I've never had larger then a 14b. Never turned the boost up on the 13g car at all, just wastegate pressure.

As my current car, the 14b seems to fall to about 15-17psi it's tough to glance over at the boost gauge during a run and I don't have a map so I don't log boost. Never used to fall off at all, thinking it's the cams, but they also seem worth it as the car is clearly making power.

 

[Phil1320]

Ya I knew the stamp number. Now which direction are the threads on the 1010 turbo shaft??



Smart move sticking with the stocker. This is my plan with the evo. Just drive it and enjoy it. Mod only what the car really needs next.

Again, IIRC, the '010' threads on to the right. The left thread on is the 'better' one. Had I known of this issue, I would have had it drilled and safety wired, and rebalanced. Oh well.

As far as staying with the stocker set up, the car was plenty quick enough back then. Also, I didn't have much money at all to toss at it, so it was a part here, a part there.

I've never ran anything larger then the 14b, I ran a 13g on an auto laser I had for a while. So I kind of followed the upgrade at a time path, but alot quicker then even Phil did!

I started at 20 psi in 2012, turned it to 21 and hit 11's on the first drag trip gained .6mph from 20-21 psi. The next trip I turned it up from 21-22 and gained .6 mph again. Those are comparisons to the pass directly before turning the knob. The gains however stayed equal and in the case of 21-22 psi actually went to .9 mph gain in later passes on the same evening. Also the gains from 20-21 remained constant on the next track visit prior to turning it up to 22. So overall from 20-22 psi I gained 1.5 mph...ish. It was enough to go from 12.1 to 11.8 on the street tires. I don't know if there will be more gains with more boost as I'm sure there will be a limit. Of course switching to lighter wheels and slicks resulted in another .8mph gain with no tuning or boost changes.

Cool. I think I'll end up between 22-24 psi.

 

[e85_4g63]

Has anyone tried the 8cm2 housing from FP on there 14b yet? Maybe it would help with the top end drop off and/or keep the drive pressures down?

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

I never "ran" the 13g auto, just meant on all my dsms I've never had larger then a 14b. Never turned the boost up on the 13g car at all, just wastegate pressure.

As my current car, the 14b seems to fall to about 15-17psi it's tough to glance over at the boost gauge during a run and I don't have a map so I don't log boost. Never used to fall off at all, thinking it's the cams, but they also seem worth it as the car is clearly making power.

I don't think I'd worry about boost level being lower due to larger cams. It just means your moving air much easy. I moved as much air at 14-15# as I was at 18-19# just by going from stock exhaust to 3" turbo back cat-less N1.

 

[bullettdsm]

So, at this point, I'm gonna start implementing some things that others have already done. Such as balance shaft removal, compression bump, cams, and a real tuning interface. A couple of great friends were over this past weekend, two that have followed what I've been doing for a long time, and have helped me out in many ways. They follow the thread and chime in here and there. We were talking about my new set up as both of them have alot more time inside engines and more trial and error. So, the outcome of the conversations is that they don't want me to step outside the box. I agree.

(Comes back into the thread and looks around for boneheads. Doesn't see any at the moment, so he posts )

Phil, been too long and not enough time to catch up on crap. But great to stop over and bullshit (insert all the appropriate family/house fanfare here).

More importantly, I believe whole heartedly that the changes we spoke about will net you at least tenths (yeah that's right I said tenths ). You can worry about coloring outside the lines after these are implemented

MB

 

[1SloEvo]

I would be interested to see what the 8cm housing does on a 14b as well. I understand that the compressor wheel can only flow so much air, but if you can get more air through the exhaust side and through the turbine wheel, it might make a slight difference. I might have to pick one up later on down the road and try it out back to back to see what the results are. Could be swapped rather quickly considering I'm planning a simple side exit exhaust.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

One of the reasons I've been meaning to check out the T3/10cm housing on a 14B. Dropping your boost:drive ratio will bring down EGTs, increase VE, etc.

Be able to cam it more like an NA motor, increase overlap and so on. More power per psi should be the result.

But what actually happens is another story.

 

[1qkfwd]

I never "ran" the 13g auto, just meant on all my dsms I've never had larger then a 14b. Never turned the boost up on the 13g car at all, just wastegate pressure.

As my current car, the 14b seems to fall to about 15-17psi it's tough to glance over at the boost gauge during a run and I don't have a map so I don't log boost. Never used to fall off at all, thinking it's the cams, but they also seem worth it as the car is clearly making power.

Ok I took it as you ran the car. I'm tossing an auto car together just to monitor a few things and do a couple test. Just curious what kinda times to expect from a tinkered with auto.

The drop off is normal. Mine drops from 21-22psi down to 14-15. It's a small taper tho. I'd be curious if you start logging what it drops to.

Again, IIRC, the '010' threads on to the right. The left thread on is the 'better' one. Had I known of this issue, I would have had it drilled and safety wired, and rebalanced. Oh well.

And this is why I'm glad I read all 100+ pages of this thread. Im running the 1010 turbo. Came out of a beautiful well maintained 75k mile car. So based on your experiences I will keep a hefty eye on this. Thought about peening the end like we do for the end nuts on the transmission. I just didn't want to throw anything out of balance.

My next time out I'll be logging backpressure with my ported 7cm housing. I should be able to get good numbers to know if stepping up a housing is an option. If I come across a really good deal on a bigger housing I may jump on it but I'm not game for spending the cash on one since the record was broke without one.

The only thing I haven't figured out what I wanna do, is tap the turbine housing or the manifold for my backpressure reading.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I've used both directly off the manifold and via the EGR port.

I recommend a pulse dampener and a stainless tube.

 

[1qkfwd]

Got the tubing. Didn't want to mess with the reading using the egr port. I was informed by Kevin J. About getting unstable readings. From what I gather FP taps into the turbine housing when testing. What pulse dampener are you using??

 

[Phil1320]

Has anyone tried the 8cm2 housing from FP on there 14b yet? Maybe it would help with the top end drop off and/or keep the drive pressures down?

I have one on the shelf already prepped for 02 wastegate, however, seeing that I haven't tried my 7cm yet, I guess it'll sit a while longer

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Got the tubing. Didn't want to mess with the reading using the egr port. I was informed by Kevin J. About getting unstable readings. From what I gather FP taps into the turbine housing when testing. What pulse dampener are you using??

The unstable reading is going to be a function of line diameter/length as much or more than where its sourced, at least from what I have seen.

I got my dampener from Tony @ T1R:

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When I was running from the EGR ports, I had both my MAPs (One for Drive, one for Boost) threaded into a block off plate and then mounted on the firewall.

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This was after I finished tapping the plate for the MAP on the Boost side of the EGR (to intake manifold) which is cold enough to use regular vacuum tubing.

For some reason ISSPro, where I got my drive-pressure gauge and sensor so all my gauges are uniform and use the ISSPro brainbox I already have everything daisy chained too, want me to mount the sensor vertically. Wasn't able to get a straight answer on why though.

 

[Phil1320]

I've never ran anything larger then the 14b, I ran a 13g on an auto laser I had for a while. So I kind of followed the upgrade at a time path, but alot quicker then even Phil did!

I started at 20 psi in 2012, turned it to 21 and hit 11's on the first drag trip gained .6mph from 20-21 psi. The next trip I turned it up from 21-22 and gained .6 mph again. Those are comparisons to the pass directly before turning the knob. The gains however stayed equal and in the case of 21-22 psi actually went to .9 mph gain in later passes on the same evening. Also the gains from 20-21 remained constant on the next track visit prior to turning it up to 22. So overall from 20-22 psi I gained 1.5 mph...ish. It was enough to go from 12.1 to 11.8 on the street tires. I don't know if there will be more gains with more boost as I'm sure there will be a limit. Of course switching to lighter wheels and slicks resulted in another .8mph gain with no tuning or boost changes.

! And you ended up right on my heels !