Starting issues - No / Doesn't / Won't Start - MERGED

[prodsm]

All "my car won't start" discussion threads are merged HERE. We've basically made it easier for those who insist upon not searching by grouping together all threads from those with similar issues so you can just scroll through and see some possible solutions. To search for info within this thread, use the "Search This Thread" feature in the black bar about 3" above what you're reading right now.

Could be anything from a loose battery terminal to internal engine damage, and literally everything in between which may involve the electrical, fuel, and ignition system...possibly even something that you screwed up while working on the car yourself. While it's unlikely we're going to diagnose and solve your problem over the internet, feel free to discuss any possible solutions.



I live in Canada and right now its not very warm out, about -30c
my car does not have a block heater too keep it warm.

I tryed to start my car this morning and it wouldent start, ive had this problem before but this time, the car doesnt crank at all it just makes a sound that sounds like an electric drill.

Whats wrong.

Thanks

 

[mercaholik]

Something is crapping out on you and it sounds like it might be doing it when it gets hot? And you are data logging when you say you made a log and wanted to post it. Check that your coil and power transistor are good right after it dies. Coils have been known to work when cold, but when they hear up enough the thermal expansion makes the small break in the wire inside the coil, not touch anymore. If you put the meter to ohms it will read ofl or really high resistance.

 

[doubleclutch]

check your MAF with link. I believe it should be around 4 gm/s at idle. sounds like that may be jacked up. The fact that it runs without the uicp attached should tell you that either the piping is clogged or the MA is telling it something wacky. Just my $.02

 

[livedsm4g63]

Even with a bad MAF the car will still start. It will idle horrible, but still start. Ill pm you my email.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Have you checked the cts sensor it could be a issue. Even with the tps my car started, up make sure you have fuel spark and compression. In case i missed it do you have a cel.

 

[TimF]

if you mean coolant temp sensor yes that is pluged in and working. My car really has not ran enough to warm up yet it will only stay on a second or so. I was suspecting my maf is bad it has just say in the back of the car over a year while the car has sat. livedsm ill email that log

 

[TimF]

how do I attach my log to a email it is saved on datalogs but it wont allow me to save it anywhere else or attach it

 

[TimF]

here is a log for the car

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Timing at 61*??? then down to 5*. Looked funny to me. Let others look and see what they can see. Also MAF dies, which will kill the car. Do you have another MAF you could try?

 

[livedsm4g63]

I see two things happening.
1) Your Maf is dying while you crank. Try unplugging the Maf and try to start the vehicle. If not worky, get a new maf. (I have a stock 1g sitting right here, or a 3inch gm with cable for ecmlink.) Pm me.
2) Your tps is not adjusted right.

 

[TimF]

No I dont have a spare maf, I will ask locally if someone can come by with a good maf, I dont plan on using my dsmlink on this car permanently it actually came of my other dsm, it was a temporary so I could get the car going

 

[livedsm4g63]

its saying youre on SD. Wait and Ill send you something to load onto your car. . No wonder why it wont start. What maf are you on?

 

[Afterfex]

Hello, I bought a 97 eclipse GS last October and it ran good for about a month then it started having a really hard time starting, I got a bit worse over time until it would only start when it felt like it. I researched for weeks looking to see what is common on the 420a for a non start scenario. I checked to make sure my EGR wasn't melting my wiring harness I replaced the Alternator, Cam and Crank position sensors, Coil pack, Spark wires and plugs, and battery. I am not getting any spark but my fuel system is working well. Also it would start sometimes but would misfire after a few minutes or if I hit higher rpms. I talked to the mechanic the previous owner took it too and he said that it was having bad problems with draining the battery which I haven't experienced and it fried out a ECU. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated also if I put this in the wrong thread please relocated it as I felt this was the only relevant thread.

Thanks!

 

[BlackKnight2013]

most common problems i am familiar with are cam and crank sensors go bad mostly; as well as fuel pumps going out and ecu becoming faulty.

how much fuel pressure does the system have?? have you checked for power at all the fuel injectors and for their signal/trigger wire? have you checked for power at the coil, and both coil trigger wires for a pulse (can check for a pulse on the two coil trigger wires by hooking up a test light to battery positive and probe the two coil trigger wires one at a time and check for a pulse, flashing light, while cranking the engine).

 

[Afterfex]

Haven't had a chance to check fuel pressure or injectors but my coil is good yet I often will not get a spark condition I have tested it multiple times and also tested a different coil pack. Sorry for lack of information with the injectors I haven't had time to check them.

 

[spike2gdsm]

420a's are known for faulty battery terminals n cables. Itll seem like u have a dead battery but everything still works just wont crank. My buddy's 97rs was just doing this. Replaced the cables n terminals and added extra grounds. Fixed the problem.

 

[Afterfex]

It does feel like the ground is shorting out, I also put a intense platinum terminal on my battery. You wouldn't happen to have any specifics would you?

Thanks, Corey.

 

[BlackKnight2013]

Haven't had a chance to check fuel pressure or injectors but my coil is good yet I often will not get a spark condition I have tested it multiple times and also tested a different coil pack. Sorry for lack of information with the injectors I haven't had time to check them.

thats alright. what i was saying was to check the coil, and if it checks out, then check the wiring harness as well because if a coil is known to be good it could be something else in the wiring harness or even in the computer. the way the 420a factory engine management system works is by taking the cam and crank signals as inputs, the cam sensor signal is overlaid/synched with the crank sensor to make a complete square waveform pattern that you would normally see/or may see by a 27 minus 3 (or for short a 24 tooth reluctor wheel that would be on a crankshaft and picked up by the crank sensor). this waveform pattern is an input to the computer, tells it were top dead center number one cylinder is and it's an input of when to fire the injectors and ignition coil. the computer, or engine control module (ecu for short), has a set parameter table loaded into the ROM (read only memory) memory chip that it matches the waveform with to know when to fire each injector, either it be a batch fire or sequential fire, for each cylinder at the right time as an output. it finds the right time to fire the injector and coil by watching for number one cylinder when you crank the engine over to start it. this slot is usually the slot with the missing tooth which shows up as a missing square out of the waveform pattern, or another type is when the square wave from the crank is missing but the cam sensor square waveform fills the empty slot and number is when both cam and crank signal overlay each other in on spicifice spot for number one cylinder, this input tells the computer where number one is and will fire the next time around when it sees number one then it will continue on to fire the next injector and coil for the next cylinder in the firing order and so on.

if the computer fails to see cam or crank signal it will cause the coil and injectors not to fire or produce a weak signal which can produce a weak intermittant spark and injector output sometime. a weak signal can make a coil and injector fire intermittently or not at all; which then causes a crank no start condition. on the 420a motor i always start by checking for good strong spark. no spark means i have either a bad crank or cam, a bad ecu and or a severly out of timed motor (for example a jumped or broken timing belt). if no spark i check cam and crank for a good signal waveform at the computer, which tells me the computer is seeing the waveform or not, and i check the wires for opens and shorts. if i have good wires and good input signals( i.e. cam and crank signals) to the ecu, i can then check for an output signal at the coil and injectors and check for opens and shorts. if all wires are good and i have good inputs but weak outputs it means the computer could be faulty internally. if i have weak inputs to the ecu it means i have either an open or shorted wire or a bad sensor pick-up (i.e cam or crank) or a bad reluctor (i.e. camshaft pickup magnet). if i have good inputs and the ecu is a known good computer and i have good outputs then i know i have either a bad coil, coil plug wire, plug and or a faulty injector.

another thing i try is to unplug the cam sensor and see if the car will start, if it does then there is something going wrong with the cam sensor wiring or the engine jumped the timing belt.

 

[spike2gdsm]

Blackknight u sure know your stuff!! My 97gs wouldnt start. When i was taking my head off to replace the gasket i noticed my cams were on the marks but my crank sure wasnt. Leaving piston #1&#4 about 1 1/2in. From top of the cylinder wall. Im guessing it jumped timing?

 

[BlackKnight2013]

Blackknight u sure know your stuff!! My 97gs wouldnt start. When i was taking my head off to replace the gasket i noticed my cams were on the marks but my crank sure wasnt. Leaving piston #1&#4 about 1 1/2in. From top of the cylinder wall. Im guessing it jumped timing?

thanks. Not to brag or affened anyone, but i am an ASE master certified mechanic and i do have years of experience in the field doing this kind of work/diagnosis daily. i do have advance training for how inputs affect outputs, like i have written above, and how to use waveform patterns to help me diagnose a car. I even know how to read binary code, which is the language the computer uses to look up information and send messages on the current networks cars are using these days now. i can use the logic of a ecu to know where to go in my diagnosis. im good at what i do but there are things i will need to learn as i continue on in the field as cars computer and network systems change and update.

i mostly specialize in the 420a motor since i have built a few and im still in the process of building my own motor.

as for your timing, if your marks for your cams were lined up and the crank before the belt came off, then the motor should be timed correctly. if the crank sprocket wasnt on its mark and the cams were on their marks it's likely the motor was either timed wrong or it jumped timing somehow. another possibility is that the cam gears stayed on their marks and the crank moved somehow after the belt was taken off.

if you would like to know more just message me so our side conversation doesn't take up the space or clutter this thread. thanks

 

[Afterfex]

I appreciate you trying to help and there is a lot of good information in that article you just wrote, I am pretty new at this sort of thing so bare with me but how could I go abouts testing for signals on my cam/crank or from the ECU end. I know the previous owner blew a ECU at one point and he gave me a "extra" so to speak so I am not 100% sure which is good if any. Also I read somewhere that your speed sensor on the tranny can also make the ECU do weird things like cut power to the coil can you confirm or deny that?

I did have one point where I was driving down the road (before it wouldn't start when I first got it) and the speedo dropped and power to the car went for a second, I feel like perhaps if the speed sensor could control something like that it maybe play a role in this charade.

Thanks, Corey.

 

[BlackKnight2013]

I appreciate you trying to help and there is a lot of good information in that article you just wrote, I am pretty new at this sort of thing so bare with me but how could I go abouts testing for signals on my cam/crank or from the ECU end. I know the previous owner blew a ECU at one point and he gave me a "extra" so to speak so I am not 100% sure which is good if any. Also I read somewhere that your speed sensor on the tranny can also make the ECU do weird things like cut power to the coil can you confirm or deny that?

I did have one point where I was driving down the road (before it wouldn't start when I first got it) and the speedo dropped and power to the car went for a second, I feel like perhaps if the speed sensor could control something like that it maybe play a role in this charade.

Thanks, Corey.

thanks for the compliment.

to test your signal you can use a digital volt ohm multi-meter, dvom for short; or the best way to check it, what i use the most, is a digital oscilloscope, or lab scope as another terminology, to view signal wires for a square wave for hall effect sensor, which is an on off signal viewed as a square wave on a lab scope. the waveforms are a short pulses so to see them you will have to watch them in a millisecond time interval of around 5 to 10 milliseconds and a voltage range of zero to 5 or 10 volts. with a dvom on low d/c voltage scale you would see it as an on off signal. so basically zero to 5 volts typically. but it may be too fast for the dvom to catch since the signal happens in milliseconds, so the dvom may end up just averaging the voltage pulses. therefore a lab scope is the best choice to use by far. when you test for the signal at the ecu you will need to back probe, put a metal pin like a sewing t-pin on the correct wire on the ecu connector and crank the engine over as you watch the dvom or lab scope for a signal. to find the correct wire and pin number at the ecu you will need a wiring diagram. most auto shops and some libraries offer information for free for this stuff by using a service data program called mitchel on demand and or alldata. you may be able to find the information in a service manual that you can purchase.

as for the speedo sensor cutting power, it is possible to have a parameter set in the computer to cut power at a certain mph to limit a vehicles speed as part of a governor. but i can't confirm that because each vehicle sets up their parameters differently from one make to another. ive mostly seen cars cut power due to over reving the engine mostly (i.e fuel cut). the speedo sensor is mainly an input to the ecu as how fast the car is traveling, which gear to use for automatic transmissions and for gauge information. if your losing power, you may be having something go bad somewhere in the power manegment system for the engine; it may be a bad sensor, bad wiring, bad powers and grounds or a computer going bad like an ecu. the computer gets lots of inputs to control outputs. if the computer goes bad it can do a lot of weird things. on chrysler powertrains, which is what is in the 420a engines and ecu, if they dont have good clean tight grounds it will do a lot of weird things like loss of power, erattic functions with gauges and communications. intermittant crank no starts and so on.

 

[doubleclutch]

did this fix it?

 

[TimF]

Ended up buying another Maf for 20$ and it started right up

 

[TimF]

I noticed the speed density after that, I changed it over.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Wonderful !!!! Glad its running again.